V12 GT3 update
Discussion
jonby said:
It's an interesting point
Porsche have a separate motorsport development centre that does the racecars and the most extreme roadcars (GT3). They take a road car and then spend a fortune in R&D, developing improvements from dynamic engine mounts, to reworked engines, different suspension, different aero, etc. One of that department's jobs is to strip weight. They will sometimes use parts used on the racecars, or ideas influenced by the racecars, on the extreme roadcars
Whatever Aston say about the influence of their racecars on this new V12GT3, I don't buy it. I've seen the latest video interviews & press releases where they suggest this new car is almost halfway between current race & road car, but I just don't see it, other than the wider track
The aero on the new car, however much better than on any current Aston road car (which I'm sure it is), doesn't appear to have anything in common with the existing race cars and the new stuff, like wheels, interior, etc certainly don't. Furthermore, I thought Prodrive (effectively Aston Martin Racing) build/design the Aston race cars ?
So whilst Aston have more recent success than Porsche, particularly in road derived cars rather than say the 919 Le Mans racer, they don't capitalise on it particularly well
This new Aston has been designed by the roadcar division and is 'inspired by V12 GT3 racecar' - no more than that IMO. In terms of what they have announced, other than aero & wider track, it's just been some very obvious & relatively easy weight savings but for instance the engine 'upgrade' appears to be nothing more than the current roadcar engine with a fancy manifold/exhaust system
This is a 1565kg road legal track special - that's simply too heavy for the money - the target weight of 1500kg was just about OK, but in reality you should be aiming for 1450 which is still 150kg heavier than a 458 Speciale which has about the same power as this Aston - a Speciale (c. £200k, not as exclusive as this Aston but stellar residuals) will IMO slaughter the new Aston
Don't get me wrong - I think the new car will be great and a lot of fun to drive. I was in my V12V at Imola and one mate had his 458 - his car was faster but I'm sure I had just as much fun. But AM must understand something about the trackday market and must know this new car is not really a competitor for other trackday roadlegal cars, partly because of the price/performance ratio, of course partly because they are only making 100 so it doesn't really matter and partly, things like the new splitter I keep harping on about. Porsche make the bottom of their GT3/RS in plastic/rubber so it can be replaced for a few hundred quid when it inevitably gets scraped. I'm sorry but who takes a car like this new Aston to a track on a regular basis knowing a new splitter will cost what, £5k including painting & fitting ?
Very well thought out. I fully agree. The GT3 will become a car for collectors. It is way too expensive to be a track toy. If you want that level of performance, you are better off getting a dedicated track-only car rather than one designed for double duty. For much less money you could get a factory GT4 real race car and spare parts. I cringe to think about how much it would cost to replace when you scrape that lovely splitter. Aston really needs to start incorporating lift suspensions on their cars.Porsche have a separate motorsport development centre that does the racecars and the most extreme roadcars (GT3). They take a road car and then spend a fortune in R&D, developing improvements from dynamic engine mounts, to reworked engines, different suspension, different aero, etc. One of that department's jobs is to strip weight. They will sometimes use parts used on the racecars, or ideas influenced by the racecars, on the extreme roadcars
Whatever Aston say about the influence of their racecars on this new V12GT3, I don't buy it. I've seen the latest video interviews & press releases where they suggest this new car is almost halfway between current race & road car, but I just don't see it, other than the wider track
The aero on the new car, however much better than on any current Aston road car (which I'm sure it is), doesn't appear to have anything in common with the existing race cars and the new stuff, like wheels, interior, etc certainly don't. Furthermore, I thought Prodrive (effectively Aston Martin Racing) build/design the Aston race cars ?
So whilst Aston have more recent success than Porsche, particularly in road derived cars rather than say the 919 Le Mans racer, they don't capitalise on it particularly well
This new Aston has been designed by the roadcar division and is 'inspired by V12 GT3 racecar' - no more than that IMO. In terms of what they have announced, other than aero & wider track, it's just been some very obvious & relatively easy weight savings but for instance the engine 'upgrade' appears to be nothing more than the current roadcar engine with a fancy manifold/exhaust system
This is a 1565kg road legal track special - that's simply too heavy for the money - the target weight of 1500kg was just about OK, but in reality you should be aiming for 1450 which is still 150kg heavier than a 458 Speciale which has about the same power as this Aston - a Speciale (c. £200k, not as exclusive as this Aston but stellar residuals) will IMO slaughter the new Aston
Don't get me wrong - I think the new car will be great and a lot of fun to drive. I was in my V12V at Imola and one mate had his 458 - his car was faster but I'm sure I had just as much fun. But AM must understand something about the trackday market and must know this new car is not really a competitor for other trackday roadlegal cars, partly because of the price/performance ratio, of course partly because they are only making 100 so it doesn't really matter and partly, things like the new splitter I keep harping on about. Porsche make the bottom of their GT3/RS in plastic/rubber so it can be replaced for a few hundred quid when it inevitably gets scraped. I'm sorry but who takes a car like this new Aston to a track on a regular basis knowing a new splitter will cost what, £5k including painting & fitting ?
jonby said:
Don't get me wrong - I think the new car will be great and a lot of fun to drive. I was in my V12V at Imola and one mate had his 458 - his car was faster but I'm sure I had just as much fun. But AM must understand something about the trackday market and must know this new car is not really a competitor for other trackday roadlegal cars, partly because of the price/performance ratio, of course partly because they are only making 100 so it doesn't really matter and partly, things like the new splitter I keep harping on about. Porsche make the bottom of their GT3/RS in plastic/rubber so it can be replaced for a few hundred quid when it inevitably gets scraped. I'm sorry but who takes a car like this new Aston to a track on a regular basis knowing a new splitter will cost what, £5k including painting & fitting ?
Jonby as usual your points cannot be disputed. I can only defend Aston Martin by re-iterating what I said earlier that they need exclusive models to help bolster the sale of their current range. I think introducing a supposed GT3 and Vulcan is a good move; to be perfectly honest I would love an Aston Martin GT3 not as a replacement for my own car and certainly not to track, more because it will be very special. Lack of sufficient funds and common sense will not allow this to happen. My fast beetle (991 GT3) has a front axle lifter to help protect the splitter. Replacement fitted cost £150! I believe there is a statistic which claims 80% of Porsche GT3's are tracked. I wonder if Aston will take their new GT3 to the Nurburgring and publish a time. Probably won't be their best move if they do!
robgt3 said:
jonby said:
Don't get me wrong - I think the new car will be great and a lot of fun to drive. I was in my V12V at Imola and one mate had his 458 - his car was faster but I'm sure I had just as much fun. But AM must understand something about the trackday market and must know this new car is not really a competitor for other trackday roadlegal cars, partly because of the price/performance ratio, of course partly because they are only making 100 so it doesn't really matter and partly, things like the new splitter I keep harping on about. Porsche make the bottom of their GT3/RS in plastic/rubber so it can be replaced for a few hundred quid when it inevitably gets scraped. I'm sorry but who takes a car like this new Aston to a track on a regular basis knowing a new splitter will cost what, £5k including painting & fitting ?
Jonby as usual your points cannot be disputed. I can only defend Aston Martin by re-iterating what I said earlier that they need exclusive models to help bolster the sale of their current range. I think introducing a supposed GT3 and Vulcan is a good move; to be perfectly honest I would love an Aston Martin GT3 not as a replacement for my own car and certainly not to track, more because it will be very special. Lack of sufficient funds and common sense will not allow this to happen. My fast beetle (991 GT3) has a front axle lifter to help protect the splitter. Replacement fitted cost £150! I believe there is a statistic which claims 80% of Porsche GT3's are tracked. I wonder if Aston will take their new GT3 to the Nurburgring and publish a time. Probably won't be their best move if they do!
As you say, your replacement splitter was £150. Porsche described it as a 'consumable' on 997 GT3RS - I don't know if they still do. I disagree with the point earlier that someone spending £250k doesn't mind - we all know that buyers of cars at this price level still talk about things like depreciation, insurance costs, economy, etc. You don't normally make that much money without having some commerciality about you
Those who don't track their Porsche GT3 have a fabulous drivers car. This Aston is neither suitable as a track car for most, for the reasons already stated, nor is it a useable roadcar unless you get rid of that splitter. It's not just the cost - it's so pronounced and so low, it really does look impossible to get over a speedbump with. So what is it for ?
As has been said, if it's just for use as a track toy, their are infinitely better ways to spend your money - a brand new V12GT3 race car starts at less than £400k and not many will get change out of £300k on the new road legal toy !
My issue is that unlike you, I'd love an Aston track car and they could do it at a sensible price. But they still stick to their old ways.
Edited by jonby on Wednesday 18th February 16:05
AMDBSNick said:
jonby said:
cayman-black said:
AMDBSNick said:
They need to be 
I always thought the ceramics where good, or is that just for road use?
jonby said:
My issue is that unlike you, I'd love an Aston track car and they could do it at a sensible price. But they still stick to their old ways.
Edited by jonby on Wednesday 18th February 16:05
A track car does not need to be a new car Jonby. Track days are in my opinion about having fun, something you declared in an earlier post. You could purchase an older V8 or V12 Vantage strip it of loads of weight and hey presto you have a fun track car. I would admit a trailer and 4 x 4 would be required as well. Up to about £250K a 991 Gt3 has few if any serious track day rivals which also are sublime road cars. The obvious one would be the 458 Speciale, though my understanding is that it is too loud for most tracks and much too loud for the road.
robgt3 said:
You could purchase an older V8 or V12 Vantage strip it of loads of weight and hey presto you have a fun track car.
I wonder if we will see any GT3 exterior 'lookalikes'.A £30,000 Vantage, good glass fibre skills, new wheels and hub extensions, job done for £50K.
3D printers might be scanning the press release photographs right now, to make the body kit parts.
Edited by Jon39 on Wednesday 18th February 19:04
wokkadriver said:
Interesting one-liner from Marek towards the end of the video…
"there will only be a hundred in this particular guise…"
Colourful language, or a Freudian slip of future tweaks and variations on a theme?
I picked up on the same thing, but I don't actually think he knows. I know that sounds daft, but this is the same person that quoted incorrect power & weight figures in the same video. Also the same person that in the same video tried pointing at the GT3 racecar and suggesting there was far more influence/in common with that car than IMO there was. So I'd be careful not to read too much - I think at most, we can assume they hope this is not the last track oriented road legal car they make (which the have always desisted in the past because they say it's not very Aston.....)"there will only be a hundred in this particular guise…"
Colourful language, or a Freudian slip of future tweaks and variations on a theme?
robgt3 said:
jonby said:
My issue is that unlike you, I'd love an Aston track car and they could do it at a sensible price. But they still stick to their old ways.
Edited by jonby on Wednesday 18th February 16:05
A track car does not need to be a new car Jonby. Track days are in my opinion about having fun, something you declared in an earlier post. You could purchase an older V8 or V12 Vantage strip it of loads of weight and hey presto you have a fun track car. I would admit a trailer and 4 x 4 would be required as well. Up to about £250K a 991 Gt3 has few if any serious track day rivals which also are sublime road cars. The obvious one would be the 458 Speciale, though my understanding is that it is too loud for most tracks and much too loud for the road.
I agree with everything you say about second hand track cars, but that is of course a quite different market to a new 150-250k car.
jonby said:
wokkadriver said:
Interesting one-liner from Marek towards the end of the video…
"there will only be a hundred in this particular guise…"
Colourful language, or a Freudian slip of future tweaks and variations on a theme?
I picked up on the same thing, but I don't actually think he knows. I know that sounds daft, but this is the same person that quoted incorrect power & weight figures in the same video. Also the same person that in the same video tried pointing at the GT3 racecar and suggesting there was far more influence/in common with that car than IMO there was. So I'd be careful not to read too much - I think at most, we can assume they hope this is not the last track oriented road legal car they make (which the have always desisted in the past because they say it's not very Aston.....)"there will only be a hundred in this particular guise…"
Colourful language, or a Freudian slip of future tweaks and variations on a theme?
I much prefer them making this kind of vanity car than swapping out carbon for plastic, adding a bit of lipstick and creating the N430. Selfishly I'd love my car to the cheapest they do and the special editions pull the range into more exclusive territory.
V12 GT3 RS anyone..?
robgt3 said:
jonby said:
My issue is that unlike you, I'd love an Aston track car and they could do it at a sensible price. But they still stick to their old ways.
A track car does not need to be a new car Jonby. Track days are in my opinion about having fun, something you declared in an earlier post. You could purchase an older V8 or V12 Vantage strip it of loads of weight and hey presto you have a fun track car. I would admit a trailer and 4 x 4 would be required as well. Up to about £250K a 991 Gt3 has few if any serious track day rivals which also are sublime road cars. The obvious one would be the 458 Speciale, though my understanding is that it is too loud for most tracks and much too loud for the road.
http://www.bamfordrose.com/overview.html
jonby said:
this is the same person that quoted incorrect power & weight figures in the same video. Also the same person that in the same video tried pointing at the GT3 racecar and suggesting there was far more influence/in common with that car than IMO there was.
This is also the same person who wears brown leather shoes with a black leather belt!! Head of Design?! 
jonby said:
I'm sure some of my points can be disputed !
As you say, your replacement splitter was £150. Porsche described it as a 'consumable' on 997 GT3RS - I don't know if they still do. I disagree with the point earlier that someone spending £250k doesn't mind - we all know that buyers of cars at this price level still talk about things like depreciation, insurance costs, economy, etc. You don't normally make that much money without having some commerciality about you
Those who don't track their Porsche GT3 have a fabulous drivers car. This Aston is neither suitable as a track car for most, for the reasons already stated, nor is it a useable roadcar unless you get rid of that splitter. It's not just the cost - it's so pronounced and so low, it really does look impossible to get over a speedbump with. So what is it for ?
As has been said, if it's just for use as a track toy, their are infinitely better ways to spend your money - a brand new V12GT3 race car starts at less than £400k and not many will get change out of £300k on the new road legal toy !
My issue is that unlike you, I'd love an Aston track car and they could do it at a sensible price. But they still stick to their old ways.
Can be disputed, and will be :-)As you say, your replacement splitter was £150. Porsche described it as a 'consumable' on 997 GT3RS - I don't know if they still do. I disagree with the point earlier that someone spending £250k doesn't mind - we all know that buyers of cars at this price level still talk about things like depreciation, insurance costs, economy, etc. You don't normally make that much money without having some commerciality about you
Those who don't track their Porsche GT3 have a fabulous drivers car. This Aston is neither suitable as a track car for most, for the reasons already stated, nor is it a useable roadcar unless you get rid of that splitter. It's not just the cost - it's so pronounced and so low, it really does look impossible to get over a speedbump with. So what is it for ?
As has been said, if it's just for use as a track toy, their are infinitely better ways to spend your money - a brand new V12GT3 race car starts at less than £400k and not many will get change out of £300k on the new road legal toy !
My issue is that unlike you, I'd love an Aston track car and they could do it at a sensible price. But they still stick to their old ways.
Edited by jonby on Wednesday 18th February 16:05
The Porsche GT3 is, in my humble opinion, a better drivers car - BUT, the Aston Vantage customer race cars a very well respected endurance racers, and have won a lot of races. I suspect that the GT3 is exactly a road legal version of that. More comfortable and better for long distance racing/driving than the Porsche GT3, and more exclusive too - what's not to like?
It's out of my price range (the Aston) and frankly too damn ugly, but I'm sure it will be great car.
BTW, I expect the Porsche GT3 front splitter was classed a "consumable" so they didn't have to replace it under warranty. My experience of the OPCs in London is that they have pretty poor customer service. I guess when you have a unique product, and a waiting list of customers, you can afford to be a bit lax.
PiloteAM said:
BUT, the Aston Vantage customer race cars a very well respected endurance racers, and have won a lot of races. I suspect that the GT3 is exactly a road legal version of that.
Non, I'm afraid.The GT3 road car bears very little technical resemblance to either the GT3 (V12) or GT4 (V8) customer race cars. Here are the specs for the GT4 car: http://www.astonmartin.com/en/racing/race-cars/van...
And the GT3 race car: http://www.astonmartin.com/en/racing/race-cars/van...
AdamV8V said:
jonby said:
this is the same person that quoted incorrect power & weight figures in the same video. Also the same person that in the same video tried pointing at the GT3 racecar and suggesting there was far more influence/in common with that car than IMO there was.
This is also the same person who wears brown leather shoes with a black leather belt!! Head of Design?! Is the normal attire for designers, black polo neck sweater under a jacket? -
He might have been put off during the in-car interview by thinking, why is this person only asking me prepared questions.
However, I think I heard Mr.R. say one of the weight saving measures was a carbon fibre torque tube. Don't we all have one of those in our cars?
BravoV8V said:
PiloteAM said:
BUT, the Aston Vantage customer race cars a very well respected endurance racers, and have won a lot of races. I suspect that the GT3 is exactly a road legal version of that.
Non, I'm afraid.The GT3 road car bears very little technical resemblance to either the GT3 (V12) or GT4 (V8) customer race cars. Here are the specs for the GT4 car: http://www.astonmartin.com/en/racing/race-cars/van...
And the GT3 race car: http://www.astonmartin.com/en/racing/race-cars/van...
I have no information that they are similar, just seemed likely.
Anyway, can't afford one, and even if I could I wouldn't buy one :-) but I'm sure people will.
PiloteAM said:
I was thinking of the GTE. The specs aren't really complete enough to compare to see if it's the same chassis, but it seems similar overall. The race car is a V8, and the road car is a V12, which is quite an obvious difference! But you wouldn't want a real V8 race engine in a road car, the rebuilds would be financially ruinous, and the HP/torque numbers are similar.
I have no information that they are similar, just seemed likely.
I have no information that they are similar, just seemed likely.
Racing cars:
GT4 = V8 (closer to a stock engine than the GT3 & GTE)
GT3 = V12
GTE = V8
The GTE is the fastest car.
Basic chassis 'tubs' are standard, but then the build of the GT3 and GTE
becomes very race specialised.
Edited by Jon39 on Wednesday 18th February 23:41
Here's a link to very informative article about the real race car GT3
http://www.speedhunters.com/2013/08/the-vantage-ad...
It's well worth a read, a few good quotes:
"The Vantage manages close to the golden goal of 50-50 weight distribution. At its 1250kg base, it’s 430kg lighter than the production V12 Vantage."
"The batteries are now Super B Lithium, which the team have found incredibly durable: they’ve even had alternator failure in a race but the battery still got them to the end."
http://www.blancpain-gt-series.com/car/1/aston-mar...
Wheelbase: 2740 mm
Comparing some stats:
https://astonmartin.blob.core.windows.net/sitefini...
The race car has a repositioned engine and is dry sumped.
V12 Vantage S http://www.astonmartin.com/cars/the-vantage-range/...
Kerbweight: (estimate)1665 kg
Wheelbase:2600 mm
http://www.astonmartin.com/live/news/2015/02/17/in...
Magnesium inlet manifolds with revised geometry
Magnesium torque tube
Full titanium exhaust system with centre outlets
Full carbon fibre centre stack
Race-derived carbon fibre sports seats
Alcantara trim
Flared carbon fibre front wings
Carbon fibre bonnet
Lithium ion race-derived battery
carbon-fibre door casings
optional carbon fibre roof
optional weight-saving polycarbonate rear window and rear quarter windows
New car weighs in at only 1,565 kg
Wheels from AppTech http://apptech-forgedwheels.com/products-services/... - cannot see that they will be radically lighter than the forged alcoa wheels in use in the V12V
Visually I can see fabric door pulls rather than metal
The battery will be about 20-25kg lighter.
The titanium exhaust will be 25-35kg lighter. I will take an educated guess that Akrapovic built it.
The magnesium alloy torque tube is about 8kg lighter
Alcantara versus leather?
The ski-jump and centre console all in CF?
Inlet manifolds in magnesium alloy rather than aluminium - since they look the same size (made from the same casting tooling?) they will be lighter but not much - depending on the alloy used the relative densities varies.
So, an aftermarket exhaust from Akrapovic, magnesium alloy torque tube you can buy from prodrive and a fancy battery get you from Halfords gives 53-68kg of weight savings for probably about £20,000.
Bamford Rose can get 600bhp from an older generation of V12V engine without major surgery.
The GT3 does have some nice touches - the front wings are cool, centre lock wheels are cool but require a bloody big torque wrench, the splitter will be consumable, the diffuser looks good, rear wing is a bit Kahn, bonnet is very Kahn.
Overall - overpriced.
For the cost of change I would get Bamford Rose to monster my V12 and buy a genuine pre-owned GT4 V8 as a track car - you can get one for about £50,000. And have £80k for other stuff....
http://www.speedhunters.com/2013/08/the-vantage-ad...
It's well worth a read, a few good quotes:
"The Vantage manages close to the golden goal of 50-50 weight distribution. At its 1250kg base, it’s 430kg lighter than the production V12 Vantage."
"The batteries are now Super B Lithium, which the team have found incredibly durable: they’ve even had alternator failure in a race but the battery still got them to the end."
http://www.blancpain-gt-series.com/car/1/aston-mar...
Wheelbase: 2740 mm
Comparing some stats:
https://astonmartin.blob.core.windows.net/sitefini...
The race car has a repositioned engine and is dry sumped.
V12 Vantage S http://www.astonmartin.com/cars/the-vantage-range/...
Kerbweight: (estimate)1665 kg
Wheelbase:2600 mm
http://www.astonmartin.com/live/news/2015/02/17/in...
Magnesium inlet manifolds with revised geometry
Magnesium torque tube
Full titanium exhaust system with centre outlets
Full carbon fibre centre stack
Race-derived carbon fibre sports seats
Alcantara trim
Flared carbon fibre front wings
Carbon fibre bonnet
Lithium ion race-derived battery
carbon-fibre door casings
optional carbon fibre roof
optional weight-saving polycarbonate rear window and rear quarter windows
New car weighs in at only 1,565 kg
Wheels from AppTech http://apptech-forgedwheels.com/products-services/... - cannot see that they will be radically lighter than the forged alcoa wheels in use in the V12V
Visually I can see fabric door pulls rather than metal
The battery will be about 20-25kg lighter.
The titanium exhaust will be 25-35kg lighter. I will take an educated guess that Akrapovic built it.
The magnesium alloy torque tube is about 8kg lighter
Alcantara versus leather?
The ski-jump and centre console all in CF?
Inlet manifolds in magnesium alloy rather than aluminium - since they look the same size (made from the same casting tooling?) they will be lighter but not much - depending on the alloy used the relative densities varies.
So, an aftermarket exhaust from Akrapovic, magnesium alloy torque tube you can buy from prodrive and a fancy battery get you from Halfords gives 53-68kg of weight savings for probably about £20,000.
Bamford Rose can get 600bhp from an older generation of V12V engine without major surgery.
The GT3 does have some nice touches - the front wings are cool, centre lock wheels are cool but require a bloody big torque wrench, the splitter will be consumable, the diffuser looks good, rear wing is a bit Kahn, bonnet is very Kahn.
Overall - overpriced.
For the cost of change I would get Bamford Rose to monster my V12 and buy a genuine pre-owned GT4 V8 as a track car - you can get one for about £50,000. And have £80k for other stuff....
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