Vantage v12S owners
Discussion
ajr550 said:
Slightly off point I know but in the stick v paddles debate the ability to left foot brake (generally acknowledged to make you faster and safer) cannot be ignored.
You can trail brake with left foot with ASMObviously you can't heel & toe
That said I don't think either are really need in the Aston (IME of 23k mile of hammering ASM)
I can't be objective about ASM3 as the work BR have done on my ASM2 box made it a lot better.
I drove a V12VS and a Vanquish back to back and was underwhelmed by both
Jon1967x said:
What he says..
Quick dab of throttle then pull both paddles to drop it into neutral and roll. If you're still moving and the traffic picks up, pull a paddle and engage a gear, if not, have a very gentle stop.
Indeed. SS no different to a manual in stop and go traffic or on inclines. Always amuses me when people rag on SS for this sort of thing, as if to imply manual has some sort of advantage.Quick dab of throttle then pull both paddles to drop it into neutral and roll. If you're still moving and the traffic picks up, pull a paddle and engage a gear, if not, have a very gentle stop.
There is no doubting that Sportshift is a Marmite aspect of the V12VS and, let's be honest from the start, it isn't as good as the best dual clutch transmissions. There have been some good answers already, but here are a few more thoughts, which I hope assist.
Aston have done a fine job of evolving SS and it is now very good. For SSII & III removal of creep mode, new improved clutch learns and hill start assist have all helped remove most (if not all!) of the past low speed manouvering issues.
Sport paddle shift mode means the car will hit the rev limiter just like a manual car, you can keep your hands on the wheel for best control and are still choosing your own gear strategy via the paddles. When you are really on it for fast road and on track work the changes are fabulous, fast, dynamic and exciting. It does take away a layer of involvement compared to a manual and your brain needs to adjust to 7 gears, but it compensates as you find yourself changing down more often to best enjoy the heel and toe throttle blip and high rev V8/12 roar. The change is way faster than manual change and as such offers a real world performance advantage.
The downsides are changes taken when you are only making middling progress, they can be jerky if you change when the throttle is being applied, this is where it takes a little while to adapt to how it works. As mentioned a small lift of the throttle smooths the change. The gearbox also changes down automatically (even in sports paddle mode) when it reaches low revs in a given gear ( so around 1500rpm) this means you sometimes have to second guess a down change as you may manually change down when the gearbox is already doing this itself causing you to be in a lower gear than you wanted! Again this is part of adapting to the system, but the occasional jerky change ( etc) can still aggravate!
Auto D basically (even in Sport) dives for 7th and best economy as quickly as possible. It is actually ok on light throttle openings, but you get the dreaded jerk change on mid-throttle inputs when moving up the gears. Kick down works like an auto and it is fine at the two ends.....smooth gentle driving and full on flat to the floor, but in between it is murdered by Touchtronic, which is way smoother! Having said this I still use Auto D if I'm in an unfamiliar, busy area or on motorway stop-start driving, so it is still useful to have.
With the new Touchtronic III (15MY Vanquish) you now have very fast gearchanges with paddle control and smooth easy auto mode (so something of a win-win) raising the question why this can't now be considered for the Vantage. Of course by their very nature great auto-boxes (and dual clutch) tend to make you stick the gearbox in Drive and let the car do the rest. Where as SS encourages you to use manual control and "think" about the changes hence involving you more in the process of getting the best out of the car than either auto or dual clutch!
Just ensure a good drive in order to get used to SS before deciding, and enjoy driving Vanquish and V12S, you lucky chap
Aston have done a fine job of evolving SS and it is now very good. For SSII & III removal of creep mode, new improved clutch learns and hill start assist have all helped remove most (if not all!) of the past low speed manouvering issues.
Sport paddle shift mode means the car will hit the rev limiter just like a manual car, you can keep your hands on the wheel for best control and are still choosing your own gear strategy via the paddles. When you are really on it for fast road and on track work the changes are fabulous, fast, dynamic and exciting. It does take away a layer of involvement compared to a manual and your brain needs to adjust to 7 gears, but it compensates as you find yourself changing down more often to best enjoy the heel and toe throttle blip and high rev V8/12 roar. The change is way faster than manual change and as such offers a real world performance advantage.
The downsides are changes taken when you are only making middling progress, they can be jerky if you change when the throttle is being applied, this is where it takes a little while to adapt to how it works. As mentioned a small lift of the throttle smooths the change. The gearbox also changes down automatically (even in sports paddle mode) when it reaches low revs in a given gear ( so around 1500rpm) this means you sometimes have to second guess a down change as you may manually change down when the gearbox is already doing this itself causing you to be in a lower gear than you wanted! Again this is part of adapting to the system, but the occasional jerky change ( etc) can still aggravate!
Auto D basically (even in Sport) dives for 7th and best economy as quickly as possible. It is actually ok on light throttle openings, but you get the dreaded jerk change on mid-throttle inputs when moving up the gears. Kick down works like an auto and it is fine at the two ends.....smooth gentle driving and full on flat to the floor, but in between it is murdered by Touchtronic, which is way smoother! Having said this I still use Auto D if I'm in an unfamiliar, busy area or on motorway stop-start driving, so it is still useful to have.
With the new Touchtronic III (15MY Vanquish) you now have very fast gearchanges with paddle control and smooth easy auto mode (so something of a win-win) raising the question why this can't now be considered for the Vantage. Of course by their very nature great auto-boxes (and dual clutch) tend to make you stick the gearbox in Drive and let the car do the rest. Where as SS encourages you to use manual control and "think" about the changes hence involving you more in the process of getting the best out of the car than either auto or dual clutch!
Just ensure a good drive in order to get used to SS before deciding, and enjoy driving Vanquish and V12S, you lucky chap
Great insight Grant from real world driving. I would only add the following after 6K miles in a AMS 11 V8VS (basically same as ASM III but for V8). I came from an Audi S-Tronic, probably one of the best Auto 'boxes around.
First of all, implied but not said, is most of the criticism you read here applies to ASM I and as you say largely corrected in ASM II and III. Worse, criticism you read elsewhere will be from people who have never driven the car or at least not for any length of time or the way intended (as an automated manual).
Just three things from me on top of Grant's comments
Hill Hold - really great when it decides to kick in. I wish it would work on slighter inclines than it is programmed to do. Stop start traffic on an incline does involve some dexterity when Hill Hold is not activated.
D Mode - I hear what you say Grant and I thought I would engage D mode under the circumstances you suggest but I never ever do. Paddles are just second nature now/
Downshifts - I must always be way ahead of the Sportshift automatic downshifts as I have never experienced what you and others have described (or the sudden downchange to 1st when setting off). I think it is because I either do all the downshifting myself and early or (rarely) leave it entirely up to the 'box.
In short, having said I would never own a manual car again after a few 'proper' Autos I in fact do have a manual now. I guess I meant I would never have a clutch pedal again
First of all, implied but not said, is most of the criticism you read here applies to ASM I and as you say largely corrected in ASM II and III. Worse, criticism you read elsewhere will be from people who have never driven the car or at least not for any length of time or the way intended (as an automated manual).
Just three things from me on top of Grant's comments
Hill Hold - really great when it decides to kick in. I wish it would work on slighter inclines than it is programmed to do. Stop start traffic on an incline does involve some dexterity when Hill Hold is not activated.
D Mode - I hear what you say Grant and I thought I would engage D mode under the circumstances you suggest but I never ever do. Paddles are just second nature now/
Downshifts - I must always be way ahead of the Sportshift automatic downshifts as I have never experienced what you and others have described (or the sudden downchange to 1st when setting off). I think it is because I either do all the downshifting myself and early or (rarely) leave it entirely up to the 'box.
In short, having said I would never own a manual car again after a few 'proper' Autos I in fact do have a manual now. I guess I meant I would never have a clutch pedal again
Grant3 said:
There is no doubting that Sportshift is a Marmite aspect of the V12VS and, let's be honest from the start, it isn't as good as the best dual clutch transmissions.
^^ This encapsulates the problem perfectly. It's like saying apples aren't as good as oranges. People (and reviewers) insist on comparing SS to dual clutch. Then many of the same (not you, Grant) moan about how SS isn't as good as a conventional manual. These same folks conveniently don't compare the manual to dual clutch, because, using the same criteria, the manual would fail miserably.If you want instantaneous gear changes and seamless automatic operation, then go for a dual clutch or the latest torque converter auto - in terms of feel the current ZF 8 speed autos are pretty close to dual clutch, with a better auto mode, snappy upshifts and nearly as good downshifts. SS is a single clutch manual without a clutch pedal, i.e. a variant of a manual transmission; expecting the loss of the clutch pedal to make it like a dual clutch is misguided.
franki68 said:
I've got a back to back drive next week with that and a vanquish,I think I may fall hopelessly for one or both ,but is the gearbox that bad on the v12s ? I never liked the box on the v8 vantage I tried a few years back ,and every test talks about how antiquated it feels ,but what is it like to live with ?
To divert the question slightly and looking at some of your previous cars, if you can afford both, then go for a 12C and a Vanquish. Perfect combination in my opinion in terms or performance, style and usage.mikey k said:
You can trail brake with left foot with ASM
Obviously you can't heel & toe
That said I don't think either are really need in the Aston (IME of 23k mile of hammering ASM)
Indeed Aston's own driving tips for ASM stateObviously you can't heel & toe
That said I don't think either are really need in the Aston (IME of 23k mile of hammering ASM)
"It is recommend that only the right foot is used to operate the footbrake and accelerator, in order to limit clutch drag and excessive wear"
IanV12VR said:
Jon1967x said:
They removed it on the asm2 but on pretty good authority it was put back on the asm3.
Not according to Grants book which is part of the reason it is lighter than the V12V. 
every V12VS I've seen didn't have one
Allegedly it is an "option" but I've not seen it on the list
Not sure how much truth there is in that as ASM2 doesn't have the ports in the casting to take it and ASM3 is a progression of ASM2.
The retrofit made a big difference to the oil temps on my ASM2 box.
mikey k said:
IanV12VR said:
Jon1967x said:
They removed it on the asm2 but on pretty good authority it was put back on the asm3.
Not according to Grants book which is part of the reason it is lighter than the V12V. every V12VS I've seen didn't have one
Allegedly it is an "option" but I've not seen it on the list
Not sure how much truth there is in that as ASM2 doesn't have the ports in the casting to take it and ASM3 is a progression of ASM2.
The retrofit made a big difference to the oil temps on my ASM2 box.
mb1 said:
To divert the question slightly and looking at some of your previous cars, if you can afford both, then go for a 12C and a Vanquish. Perfect combination in my opinion in terms or performance, style and usage.
I'm not changing at the moment , just was offered a drive in each when the cars in for a recallI get that some people prefer touchtronic(auto)/dual clutch to manual and/or single clutch/ASM
But there seems to be an assumption from those people that it is always inherently better that you can change gear by pushing a button and having a seamless change, rather than a change that involves a small pause, a slight jerk, a big noise, the requirement for an element of modulation of throttle, etc. Maybe inherently better for many, but not inherently better for me.
Personally, it's the loss of those things that I find spoils the thrills. I have a daily driver to be smooth & boring in. I want drama, noise, etc when changing gear. Losing that equates to losing fun when I drive my 2nd car. I want driving my sports car to be an event, to be dramatic, to involve using my brain, etc. As many have said, once you have touchtronic, you will probably just leave it in D mode. You'll barely ever know which gear you are in. I have an audi a7 dd and that has dual clutch with paddles, manual mode, etc. Other than experimenting the first few weeks, I've never used anything than bog standard auto mode, occasionally putting it into sport mode. It's great. As a DD. As a saloon. As a car to do motorway miles in the UK whilst on handsfree. But it's not exciting and that's what I want in a sportscar.
Sportshift I quite like and ASM3 is a vast improvement over ASM2 (and yes, I have driven them both). But I took a DBS out with touchtronic (and standard seats) - to me, I may as well have been driving a big fast Merc coupe - I hate to say it but it just felt boring in comparison to my V12V. I recognise it's a personal thing and some feel differently. But people should also recognise there are plenty of us that think the opposite and don't want this dumbing down/civility, especially in Aston's most extreme, aggressive production car. Those who suggest touchtronic should be put in this model particularly are, in my most humble opinion, completely missing the point of where V12V/S fits in the Aston line up and it's very raison d'etre
But there seems to be an assumption from those people that it is always inherently better that you can change gear by pushing a button and having a seamless change, rather than a change that involves a small pause, a slight jerk, a big noise, the requirement for an element of modulation of throttle, etc. Maybe inherently better for many, but not inherently better for me.
Personally, it's the loss of those things that I find spoils the thrills. I have a daily driver to be smooth & boring in. I want drama, noise, etc when changing gear. Losing that equates to losing fun when I drive my 2nd car. I want driving my sports car to be an event, to be dramatic, to involve using my brain, etc. As many have said, once you have touchtronic, you will probably just leave it in D mode. You'll barely ever know which gear you are in. I have an audi a7 dd and that has dual clutch with paddles, manual mode, etc. Other than experimenting the first few weeks, I've never used anything than bog standard auto mode, occasionally putting it into sport mode. It's great. As a DD. As a saloon. As a car to do motorway miles in the UK whilst on handsfree. But it's not exciting and that's what I want in a sportscar.
Sportshift I quite like and ASM3 is a vast improvement over ASM2 (and yes, I have driven them both). But I took a DBS out with touchtronic (and standard seats) - to me, I may as well have been driving a big fast Merc coupe - I hate to say it but it just felt boring in comparison to my V12V. I recognise it's a personal thing and some feel differently. But people should also recognise there are plenty of us that think the opposite and don't want this dumbing down/civility, especially in Aston's most extreme, aggressive production car. Those who suggest touchtronic should be put in this model particularly are, in my most humble opinion, completely missing the point of where V12V/S fits in the Aston line up and it's very raison d'etre
I don't own a V12VS, but I have driven the car on road and track and did not change cars, because given most of my fun driving is on road, I get more enjoyment from the manual box.
Yes, ASM III is old-fashioned, but I lived happily enough with SMG II and III gearboxes on an M3, a CSL and an M5, so I'm not inherently biased against them. The double clutch boxes are better, although there is a less direct feel. The auto mode on a dual clutch box is usable. I think it must be a certainty that Aston will use dual clutch boxes in the next generation vantage. For now though, my preference would be for a V12VS with a manual box.
Yes, ASM III is old-fashioned, but I lived happily enough with SMG II and III gearboxes on an M3, a CSL and an M5, so I'm not inherently biased against them. The double clutch boxes are better, although there is a less direct feel. The auto mode on a dual clutch box is usable. I think it must be a certainty that Aston will use dual clutch boxes in the next generation vantage. For now though, my preference would be for a V12VS with a manual box.
Zod said:
I don't own a V12VS, but I have driven the car on road and track and did not change cars, because given most of my fun driving is on road, I get more enjoyment from the manual box.
Yes, ASM III is old-fashioned, but I lived happily enough with SMG II and III gearboxes on an M3, a CSL and an M5, so I'm not inherently biased against them. The double clutch boxes are better, although there is a less direct feel. The auto mode on a dual clutch box is usable. I think it must be a certainty that Aston will use dual clutch boxes in the next generation vantage. For now though, my preference would be for a V12VS with a manual box.
I hated the smg on the M6 I had,too many settings for it and none of them good imo.Yes, ASM III is old-fashioned, but I lived happily enough with SMG II and III gearboxes on an M3, a CSL and an M5, so I'm not inherently biased against them. The double clutch boxes are better, although there is a less direct feel. The auto mode on a dual clutch box is usable. I think it must be a certainty that Aston will use dual clutch boxes in the next generation vantage. For now though, my preference would be for a V12VS with a manual box.
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