Winter V12 Vantage watch
Discussion
Just had an email from AM in Edinburgh with details of their "Car of the week"
http://www.levencarcompany.co.uk/pre-owned/5643737...
David.
http://www.levencarcompany.co.uk/pre-owned/5643737...
David.
Hi all
I've just been reading this thread with interest. I test drove a V12V recently and I've been preparing (with huge excitement) to take the plunge so have been keeping a close eye on the market which is extremely tight and have been nervously watching prices rising - in particular this £100k Scottish one!. HOWEVER I think things might be about to change.
The rumour mill need churn no more. There IS going to be a V12V S released any minute now with a manual gearbox. It will also have some very snazzy sounding system that means when you put the clutch in to change gear, you can keep your foot flat on the accelerator pedal, and the car will sort the revs out for you (if you want to), relieving the issue I've read about of flaring revs on the original V12V and making downshifts quicker too I suspect. Aston Martin are "unofficially" taking orders for these cars now, at the same price as the normal V12 V S, so this is definitely happening and a lucky few people have already test driven the car.
So my question is, what do with think this will do to the value of the original V12V in the short, medium and long term?
My view is that in the short term, we will see a good few owners trading up to the S, which will undoubtedly be the better car, freeing up the supply shortage. Also, demand for the V12V might dwindle because there is now a better alternative (albeit very much more expensive). Pricing might cool to c. £80k in the coming 6 months or so then (just a guess).
If the medium term I expect the new manual S will hold its value well and outgun the V12V as the "last of the naturally aspirated manual V12" always commanding a premium over the original.
Long term, would the fact that the V12V is the original help maintain any sort of value growth?
I suppose what I'm asking is this: do we think that this new and superior cars existence will significantly inhibit the value growth (or at least preservation) moving forwards?
This is my first post on any Internet forum by the way, so please excuse me if I have broken some rule or posted in the wrong area.
I look forward to hearing - you lot seem to have a good handle on these things. I'm still going to be buying one of these, just interested to hear your thoughts.
I've just been reading this thread with interest. I test drove a V12V recently and I've been preparing (with huge excitement) to take the plunge so have been keeping a close eye on the market which is extremely tight and have been nervously watching prices rising - in particular this £100k Scottish one!. HOWEVER I think things might be about to change.
The rumour mill need churn no more. There IS going to be a V12V S released any minute now with a manual gearbox. It will also have some very snazzy sounding system that means when you put the clutch in to change gear, you can keep your foot flat on the accelerator pedal, and the car will sort the revs out for you (if you want to), relieving the issue I've read about of flaring revs on the original V12V and making downshifts quicker too I suspect. Aston Martin are "unofficially" taking orders for these cars now, at the same price as the normal V12 V S, so this is definitely happening and a lucky few people have already test driven the car.
So my question is, what do with think this will do to the value of the original V12V in the short, medium and long term?
My view is that in the short term, we will see a good few owners trading up to the S, which will undoubtedly be the better car, freeing up the supply shortage. Also, demand for the V12V might dwindle because there is now a better alternative (albeit very much more expensive). Pricing might cool to c. £80k in the coming 6 months or so then (just a guess).
If the medium term I expect the new manual S will hold its value well and outgun the V12V as the "last of the naturally aspirated manual V12" always commanding a premium over the original.
Long term, would the fact that the V12V is the original help maintain any sort of value growth?
I suppose what I'm asking is this: do we think that this new and superior cars existence will significantly inhibit the value growth (or at least preservation) moving forwards?
This is my first post on any Internet forum by the way, so please excuse me if I have broken some rule or posted in the wrong area.
I look forward to hearing - you lot seem to have a good handle on these things. I'm still going to be buying one of these, just interested to hear your thoughts.
I think you underestimate the budget people have....its not a sidething...its often the mainthing.
Most important one:
You mention that demand for V12V will dwindle as there will be a V12VS manual. Thats a car that, at least in Holland, is going to cost almost DOUBLE.
I dont know about you, but I dont know many people that are in the market for a car and can just double their budget. In other words, its not a sidethings...its the mainthing....your budget.
So when a manual V12VS comes to the market, you have to buy new and pay a very very high premium. Which in turn means not a lot of the demand for the V12V will change as most just wont be able to afford the higher premium (some definitely will undoubtedly).
On the very long term (10 years), you might be right....the last manual v12 NA engine might be worth a premium.
I dont see the short term changing a lot, it could at best slow the increases in prizes and cool it down a bit.
Then again....a world financial crash can be just around the corner if Trump wins the elections.....after all....The Simpsons already predicted it....so it must be true: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h45bAiu_tzg
Most important one:
You mention that demand for V12V will dwindle as there will be a V12VS manual. Thats a car that, at least in Holland, is going to cost almost DOUBLE.
I dont know about you, but I dont know many people that are in the market for a car and can just double their budget. In other words, its not a sidethings...its the mainthing....your budget.
So when a manual V12VS comes to the market, you have to buy new and pay a very very high premium. Which in turn means not a lot of the demand for the V12V will change as most just wont be able to afford the higher premium (some definitely will undoubtedly).
On the very long term (10 years), you might be right....the last manual v12 NA engine might be worth a premium.
I dont see the short term changing a lot, it could at best slow the increases in prizes and cool it down a bit.
Then again....a world financial crash can be just around the corner if Trump wins the elections.....after all....The Simpsons already predicted it....so it must be true: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h45bAiu_tzg
Personally I couldn't think of anything worse than a V12VS with a traditional seven speed gated box with some crazy software that lets you do foot to the floor up shifts. What's the point?
In simple terms, the original V12V manual is a brilliant car and if you spend GBP80-85k or so on a good one, (if you can find one), it's unlikely you'll lose much money, and you'll love it. (Smae goes for a manual DBS).
Or, spend GBP100k or so on a used V12VS - which has better brakes, steering, exhaust, wheels, suspension, plus an extra 55 horses. And, dare I say it, a better gearbox! Sportshift III works really well and suits the car perfectly. I'm sorry, but I've yet to drive a manual Aston and say 'wow, what a great gearbox.' They're fine of course, but the manual box in my old S2000, or in the RS4 I have now are both better. Remember it's not all about the gearbox.......well it is to some I guess.
It will be interesting to see how many of these manual V12S's Aston actually sell. My guess is less than 50.
In simple terms, the original V12V manual is a brilliant car and if you spend GBP80-85k or so on a good one, (if you can find one), it's unlikely you'll lose much money, and you'll love it. (Smae goes for a manual DBS).
Or, spend GBP100k or so on a used V12VS - which has better brakes, steering, exhaust, wheels, suspension, plus an extra 55 horses. And, dare I say it, a better gearbox! Sportshift III works really well and suits the car perfectly. I'm sorry, but I've yet to drive a manual Aston and say 'wow, what a great gearbox.' They're fine of course, but the manual box in my old S2000, or in the RS4 I have now are both better. Remember it's not all about the gearbox.......well it is to some I guess.
It will be interesting to see how many of these manual V12S's Aston actually sell. My guess is less than 50.
At the price the original car is now around the 90k mark plus or minus I just cant see that changing. I,m sure the newer cars are always better but that does not seem to make them worth more. The original in ten years time will be the one to have I bet!
I mean surely the S now is the better car?
I mean surely the S now is the better car?
cayman-black said:
At the price the original car is now around the 90k mark plus or minus I just cant see that changing. I,m sure the newer cars are always better but that does not seem to make them worth more. The original in ten years time will be the one to have I bet!
I mean surely the S now is the better car?
I think the S is a better car in pretty much every respect. I see the S dropping in value to around the 85-90k mark in line with the V12V, then probably holding. Then in a few years it will depend on what the final production numbers of the S end up being. Then if they go in or out of fashion. Best investment now is the V12V, best car is the S. The new manual S will depreciate like the SSIII I suspect. Then when the crazy car price bubble bursts - we'll still have really nice cars. I mean surely the S now is the better car?
Phil74891 said:
I think the S is a better car in pretty much every respect. I see the S dropping in value to around the 85-90k mark in line with the V12V, then probably holding. Then in a few years it will depend on what the final production numbers of the S end up being. Then if they go in or out of fashion. Best investment now is the V12V, best car is the S. The new manual S will depreciate like the SSIII I suspect. Then when the crazy car price bubble bursts - we'll still have really nice cars.
Would-could-should, if-but-maybe, pointless comment....Having test driven both I found the biggest difference between V12V and V12VS (apart from the obvious gear changing) was the vastly improved traction in the S.If the manual S is as good or better in that respect it should be great and ultimately the more sort after car.
Not so sure about a manual with trick software though !
Not so sure about a manual with trick software though !
Phil74891 said:
Or, spend GBP100k or so on a used V12VS - which has better brakes, steering, exhaust, wheels, suspension, plus an extra 55 horses. And, dare I say it, a better gearbox!
Would you expand on the 'better brakes, steering, exhaust, and wheels?' The gearbox is a matter of subjective preference, the adaptive suspension seems undoubtedly to be a significant benefit, the extra 55 horses cannot do any harm, though I don't suffer badly from not having them, but I haven't heard anything about the other claimed improvements.On the possible knock-on effect on values, I agree that someone contemplating £85k on a V12V is not about to buy an S for £150k. However, someone who bought a V12V brand new a few years ago may now decide to upgrade, and release a V12V into the used market. It would only take a few owners doing that to move V12V prices down significantly. As a V12V owner, I hope it doesn't happen.
How long till you can get a V12VS manual for £100k?
Phil you've just tapped into my greatest fear! I have been looking at buying this car very much as a keeper. I've spent some time driving a DB9, a V8V 4.3 (the most disappointing car I've ever driven), used to own an E46 M3 and a 40th anniversary 996, had a week in a 991 Carrera S and no car has ever stirred my soul like the V12V did. So much drama and torque with engaging steering etc. I don't need to sell it to you guys obviously. I even liked the fact that it kept trying to throw me off the road whenever I was slightly unsympathetic with the throttle with the D button pushed in (it was cold and running the Corsas).
Perhaps for the moment I can try and convince myself that the manual S will be so well sorted that some of the fun will have been taken out of it, like the 991 has. On getting back into my old 996 after a week with the 991 I was so relieved to immediately miss NOTHING about the 991. It doesn't have anywhere near the 'feel' of the old cars. Perhaps the manual S just won't be as mental?!
Sorry, back to the point and regardless of my about hopes, if the S gets below £100k, you can be pretty sure the price floor for the V12V will have moved south significantly. With the sort of volumes I expect they'll sell though, maybe they'll never get that cheap? Manual gearboxes aren't that sought after just now except by us idiots. Maybe we've all got it wrong and in 15 years the old classics with manual gearboxes will be worthless!
Perhaps for the moment I can try and convince myself that the manual S will be so well sorted that some of the fun will have been taken out of it, like the 991 has. On getting back into my old 996 after a week with the 991 I was so relieved to immediately miss NOTHING about the 991. It doesn't have anywhere near the 'feel' of the old cars. Perhaps the manual S just won't be as mental?!
Sorry, back to the point and regardless of my about hopes, if the S gets below £100k, you can be pretty sure the price floor for the V12V will have moved south significantly. With the sort of volumes I expect they'll sell though, maybe they'll never get that cheap? Manual gearboxes aren't that sought after just now except by us idiots. Maybe we've all got it wrong and in 15 years the old classics with manual gearboxes will be worthless!
I think it will be very interesting to see just how many manual V12VS are built. I think it will depend upon:
- will dealers be required to take a demonstrator or do you just have a couple of cars available for people to test and get them to go to Gaydon/Millbrook.
- will they just be built for customer orders therefore minimising the need to discount to sell dealer stock
- over what period will they be built before the current Vantage production is closed.
- how big is the market for the manual V12 and will people who have existing cars be prepared to pay the sizeable chunk for the upgrade. Are there others out there who do not have either version and would want to buy?
If you are wanting to stop discounting then I think you need to avoid having stock hanging around. Either way I do not think there will be that many so, in the long term, they should maintain their value. Impact on the current V12V personally I do not see that many coming on the market so whilst I expect to see a dip in their value I do not think it will be significant.
Being lucky enough to have both versions, and driving the S as a manual, I will be very interested to see what this new manual is like and if it is any better than the SS on the S.
- will dealers be required to take a demonstrator or do you just have a couple of cars available for people to test and get them to go to Gaydon/Millbrook.
- will they just be built for customer orders therefore minimising the need to discount to sell dealer stock
- over what period will they be built before the current Vantage production is closed.
- how big is the market for the manual V12 and will people who have existing cars be prepared to pay the sizeable chunk for the upgrade. Are there others out there who do not have either version and would want to buy?
If you are wanting to stop discounting then I think you need to avoid having stock hanging around. Either way I do not think there will be that many so, in the long term, they should maintain their value. Impact on the current V12V personally I do not see that many coming on the market so whilst I expect to see a dip in their value I do not think it will be significant.
Being lucky enough to have both versions, and driving the S as a manual, I will be very interested to see what this new manual is like and if it is any better than the SS on the S.
Ian, would you consider letting both the V12V and the S go to get yourself a S manual? Also (and perhaps this will come out of your answer to the above question), with your direct and extensive experience of both, are there any characteristics of the V12V (manual gearbox excepted) that you prefer to the S? You're the right guy to be talking to!
Edited by To V-12V or not to V on Saturday 5th March 11:10
Just to let you know the last v12v sold at more than you need to pay for a S.
My point being the s may be the better car but it does not mean it will hold its value better. we will have to see how good this new 7 speed manual is before any comments on it,even though I would never change mine for one! if there are only a very few they should hold there money better than the S now.
My point being the s may be the better car but it does not mean it will hold its value better. we will have to see how good this new 7 speed manual is before any comments on it,even though I would never change mine for one! if there are only a very few they should hold there money better than the S now.
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