Anyone think it likely...........
Discussion
jonby said:
legally there is no question they could do it. The fact that it would upset some owners of V12V (particularly roadster) is something I have no doubt AML would have little concern about - unfortunately. McLaren and their dealers, in different ways, who promised it would be a different experience to Ferrari purchases, have unfortunately acted similarly. As others have said, they will all make what sells
having said that, I suspect the market will simply be considered too limited for such a car, if it is indeed made, to be made as coupe & roadster- perhaps a coupe in a run of say 100-150. If it is indeed produced - I still think it's seen as a nice idea, but simply too risky over say a marginally souped up V12VS, say with SS, GT12 exhaust & more extreme aero which would sell just as well, carry fewer concerns and be far cheaper to put into production
I hope you are correct Jonby about the route they will go but with possibly 18 months until the new Vantage something has to happen to keep consumer interest. I think around April/May ( or even Geneva) this year we may find out what the plans are for current V12V . It wouldn't surprise me to see the Merc engine appear in the current Vantage . That would keep interest high and buy a bit of time until the all new car. I just hope they stick to their word regarding the current V12V and I think (hope) they will . They also have to remember that a written commitment was made to some Roadster owners regarding build numbers. having said that, I suspect the market will simply be considered too limited for such a car, if it is indeed made, to be made as coupe & roadster- perhaps a coupe in a run of say 100-150. If it is indeed produced - I still think it's seen as a nice idea, but simply too risky over say a marginally souped up V12VS, say with SS, GT12 exhaust & more extreme aero which would sell just as well, carry fewer concerns and be far cheaper to put into production
Flugplatz said:
The manual roadster is not an s and does not have the S upgrades. It was limited to 101 examples.
The S comes with sportshift only. If it became available with a manual that would make the existence of Manual V12 Roadsters exceed the promised 101 even if it did have a "s" spec.
Would you argue that a V8 and a V8S are the same ?The S comes with sportshift only. If it became available with a manual that would make the existence of Manual V12 Roadsters exceed the promised 101 even if it did have a "s" spec.
Big Ry said:
Would you argue that a V8 and a V8S are the same ?
I have no knowledge of the cars so cannot comment on that.All I'm saying is that all owners of V12 Vantage Roadsters, Manual or "S" spec, would prefer not to see a Manual V12R "S" produced, apart from those who would buy one.
Flugplatz said:
I have no knowledge of the cars so cannot comment on that.
All I'm saying is that all owners of V12 Vantage Roadsters, Manual or "S" spec, would prefer not to see a Manual V12R "S" produced, apart from those who would buy one.
I hear you I honestly do, but I don't think you can say that for ALL owners. I bet some existing owners would jump at a new toy All I'm saying is that all owners of V12 Vantage Roadsters, Manual or "S" spec, would prefer not to see a Manual V12R "S" produced, apart from those who would buy one.
Phil74891 said:
So if AM released a V12VS manual tomorrow, how many people on here would step up and buy one? I wouldn't, but it would be interesting to see the level of interest.
If it was a genuine open release (not a limited run) then I'd wait a while and see what happened price wise (or what discount I could get). Even then it would be a stretch for me but one which I could do if I really really wanted to.Would be interesting to see where it pegged price wise, more or less than the current SS ?
All hypothetical obviously.
woodsypedia said:
jj525 said:
Absolute fact, there will be 100 V12VS manuals for the US, don't know about ROW. Priced at a premium to ASM.
Could I ask how you discovered this? Are dealers there taking deposits? It's the same story here but no one has ever confirmed from AM. Chris.
One dealer I spoke to said effectively the rumours keep persisting at the factory, but nobody can ever get to the source of those rumours
I've also had it in writing directly from the factory that it is categorically untrue that the factory have accepted any orders (globally) for a V12VS manual - the word guarantee was used i.e. we guarantee that it's untrue. That was a few months ago however I was told should it change, as a V12VR owner, I would be amongst the first to know
I've had direct conversations with some people reasonably high up the chain where it becomes obvious that there is simply no appetite amongst many at the factory, particularly in marketing/product direction, to build a manual going forward (of any model) - rightly or wrongly, however strongly I argued, they don't see the commercial case stacking up plus there is of course a 'political' issue regarding emissions. But they see manual as selling in such small numbers that it's simply not worth the development
On the other side of the argument, however compelling the points above may appear, combined with the complete move away from manual by Ferrari, Lamborghini, Audi R8, Maserati, new Ford GT, Pagani, et al (Porsche arguably were only able to make the GT4 because it has a manual box and therefore won't step on the toes of GT3), we have the combination of statements by Andy Palmer that Aston will continue to offer manual and the statements on forums such as the one above stating it's definitely happening
It's difficult as a punter who doesn't work at the factory to argue with someone that starts a statement with 'absolute fact' so I'm not going to say you're wrong. I also, like most, see Andy Palmer statements as more credible than those of his predecessor so I have to assume there will be some manual products going forward. I'm just still waiting to see what those products might be. I ended up passing on the opportunity to see DB11 at the factory last week as I'm simply too busy and won't be a buyer, but I think I'm right in saying no indication there would be a manual DB11 was made at these previews ? But also, that there are some specs that haven't been released during the visits, e.g. performance figures or even price ? So I guess it's possible there will be a manual DB11, even if not straight away. We certainly can't rule out a V12VS - it's eminently feasible to do in a SS car, even if the end product is seen as being a compromise in performance compared to SS. But I'm skeptical that anyone really knows for certain right now, that such a product is coming
Re. Jonby's comments about Andy Palmer.
A journalist comment is one thing, but I have watched a couple of video interviews (with AP), where he stated there will be some manuals in the future. We can only take that as a sincere statement, at this point in his stewardship.
Manuals will be a minority choice presumably, and probably not with dealer spec. orders. However, if Aston Martin are the only one remaining in their sector to offer manuals, that should produce some extra demand from rival brands.
Emissions are mentioned, but I am puzzled what the difference is, when SS and manuals are both cruising in 6th gear? You will probably tell me that the SS would be cruising in 7th gear.
Jon39 said:
Emissions are mentioned, but I am puzzled what the difference is, when SS and manuals are both cruising in 6th gear? You will probably tell me that the SS would be cruising in 7th gear.
I understood 7th gear on SS was explicitly for highway cruising at 2K revs or below - but couldn't sixth on a manual could be set up to do the same?Jon39 said:
Re. Jonby's comments about Andy Palmer.
A journalist comment is one thing, but I have watched a couple of video interviews (with AP), where he stated there will be some manuals in the future. We can only take that as a sincere statement, at this point in his stewardship.
Manuals will be a minority choice presumably, and probably not with dealer spec. orders. However, if Aston Martin are the only one remaining in their sector to offer manuals, that should produce some extra demand from rival brands.
Emissions are mentioned, but I am puzzled what the difference is, when SS and manuals are both cruising in 6th gear? You will probably tell me that the SS would be cruising in 7th gear.
Dealing with the points in turn, which are well made, it's exactly because of the sincere comments from AP that I'm confused, as there are still no signs of that translating into models with MT A journalist comment is one thing, but I have watched a couple of video interviews (with AP), where he stated there will be some manuals in the future. We can only take that as a sincere statement, at this point in his stewardship.
Manuals will be a minority choice presumably, and probably not with dealer spec. orders. However, if Aston Martin are the only one remaining in their sector to offer manuals, that should produce some extra demand from rival brands.
Emissions are mentioned, but I am puzzled what the difference is, when SS and manuals are both cruising in 6th gear? You will probably tell me that the SS would be cruising in 7th gear.
I agree with your second point - it's what I tried arguing to those at the factory who don't see the commercial case. Their answer is simply that whilst it is a reason some MT cars would sell, they don't think there would be a material difference if there is no such option. For instance, Ferrari would have sold some 458s with MT if the option was available, both to buyers of auto 458s and perhaps, a few people who move from Mclaren/Lambo/etc to Ferrari because Ferrari have the MT option. But would they sell more 458s overall ? I'm not saying I agree with this argument, but it's what was presented to me when I asked the question
As for emissions, that's really simple. Emissions tests are done in auto mode for cars with an auto mode. They can tailor the shifts to beat the tests. Same with fuel consumption figures. It's totally artificial. You can't do that with a manual car. There is a test (some on here can elaborate on the specifics) that involves driving the car in a certain way - it's open information so the manufacturers are influenced by the test specifics when they 'tune' the gearbox. That's probably partly why SS has 7 speeds and why the torque convertor & DSG boxes are going mental with up to 9/10 gears - it can't be about performance. I'm not sure a manual, from a drivers or performance point of view, should ever have more than 6 gears ?
All the stuff for emissions is based on accelerations, shortish steady runs at lowish speeds etc where the length of top gear ratio has no real bearing and the drive mode of the car can be programmed to help obtain the best results out of the frankly absurd test they carry out.
I would also assume that as emissions targets are an across the range thing the likes of Porsche can afford to produce a limited run manual such as the GT4 because it would have little negative effect on their overall emissions due to the relatively large number of cars they produce.
Aston Martin on the other hand would possibly find that those manuals could have a bigger effect as they produce so few cars by comparison.
I would also assume that as emissions targets are an across the range thing the likes of Porsche can afford to produce a limited run manual such as the GT4 because it would have little negative effect on their overall emissions due to the relatively large number of cars they produce.
Aston Martin on the other hand would possibly find that those manuals could have a bigger effect as they produce so few cars by comparison.
Just picking up on Jonby's final point. I am fortunate, or stupid, enough to have both the manual and SS version and can confirm what Jonby says. I drive both versions as manuals and there is a little sign on the dashboard which is continually asking me to change up to 7th - which I ignore! On the odd occasion that I have used D you are up in 7th before you know it.
From memory 6th in the manual is the same as 7th in the in the SS - but could be wrong on that.
From memory 6th in the manual is the same as 7th in the in the SS - but could be wrong on that.
t0s said:
Hanging around this forum certainly creates the impression that there is a lot of support a manual V12Vs. The more likely truth is that its just the dozen or so of us enthusiastic enough about our cars who post in this forum. Perhaps rest of the V12V owners would much rather have something automated. It does seem that there are still a healthy number of V12V's coming into the market - and I'd be curious as to why they are being sold by their owners. Is it because they got tired of shifting?
Errrr...currently 1 coupe and 2 roadsters ....is that what you describe as a healthy number?Edited by t0s on Monday 8th February 12:25
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