Anyone think it likely...........

[Jon39]

Thank you for the emissions explanations.

Since the VW exposure, we are learning more about the testing arrangements. The conclusion of many now, is that it is a waste of time and the results provide a very distorted type of truth.

We were told that diesel engines are wonderfully clean, in fact so clean, that many owners do not need to pay vehicle road tax. Years ago, I did wonder what was going on, when I noticed black smoke still being emitted by some diesel vehicles. We are now told that Nitrous Oxide emissions have been ignored in the tests, even though it could be deadly.

Performance car owners also now know that they are subsidising the 'low' emission diesels (away from the testing laboratories) with true on road driving pollution. Probably very much in my own case, 1,500 miles vs the 40,000 miles business diesels.

With the test being undertaken in Auto mode, I can now understand the move away from manuals. Such a shame that this whole move is due to nonsensical testing. This also answers my wondering, abut why the latest auto boxes have so many gears.

Edited by Jon39 on Tuesday 9th February 14:08

[jonby]

CockAroach said:

t0s said:

Hanging around this forum certainly creates the impression that there is a lot of support a manual V12Vs. The more likely truth is that its just the dozen or so of us enthusiastic enough about our cars who post in this forum. Perhaps rest of the V12V owners would much rather have something automated. It does seem that there are still a healthy number of V12V's coming into the market - and I'd be curious as to why they are being sold by their owners. Is it because they got tired of shifting?

Edited by t0s on Monday 8th February 12:25

Errrr...currently 1 coupe and 2 roadsters ....is that what you describe as a healthy number?

The interesting point is this. Car manufacturers ultimately are in the business of making money from selling new cars. Some realize that a degree of control over the used market, or at least thinking about how new car strategy affects used car prices (depreciation) which in turn has a bearing on new sales. Others (and I'd argue AML fall into this camp) seem to completely ignore the fact that oversupply causes depreciation which in turn puts people off buying new AMLs. However the fact still remains, they make their money from selling new cars

Whatever we think the demand for manuals might be, are Ferrari, Lamborghini, AML, et al really abandoning MT if they think it has a serious impact on new sales ? There is a difference between saying there is good demand for MT and saying there is an impact on new sales. Case in point - my mate D. He had a DB7 vantage GT and then a DB9, both coupes, both from new, both manual. For various reasons he's not had a sports car for a while. He's back in the market - has been for 18 months. Budget effectively isn't an issue. He is still hanging on, in the hope that DB11 might have an MT option. But, once he is categorically sure there is no manual GT option coming from AML (assuming that is the case of course), he will buy a DB11 with auto on the basis he has no choice. So it's both true that there is a demand for an MT option AND that not having MT doesn't dent sales (hugely)

He would incidentally buy an auto Aston now and then change to an MT if such a car came out in 12 months time, if it were not for the fact he's been badly burnt by depreciation on his previous Astons so won't take the risk of a £50k+ hit if he sells after 12 months a car he buys new, which is of course AML's other problem.

I think the other issue is that the attitude Ferrari, Lambo and the like take is that once the brief transition period is passed, buyers just get used to the idea it's auto Ferrari or no Ferrari so buy the auto. Majority of the younger buyers are more oriented towards auto of course (the digital generation) which will be a growing trend and a lot of old school buyers don't just want MT, but also they want N/A engines, less digital aids, etc so they don't want modern cars full stop. And in 20yrs+, will combustion engines even be a thing ? There won't be any MT electric cars. We are in the dying throws of cars as we know them and I think deep down, the manufacturers have just accepted that more readily than some consumers, probably partly because manufacturers are thinking 10-15yrs+ in advance. Another reason I hope never to sell my V12VR and another reason perhaps why V12Vs in general are holding their values strongly against the SS V12VS

[jonby]

Jon39 said:

Performance car owners also now know that they are subsidising the 'low' emission diesels (away from the testing laboratories) with true on road driving pollution. Probably very much in my own case, 1,500 miles vs the 40,000 miles business diesels.

Edited by Jon39 on Tuesday 9th February 14:05

Did you know that the £5k EV subsidy has no cap, so buyers of Porsche 918 or Mclaren P1 get a tax payer (you and me) funded subsidy for £1 Million cars. I suspect the new Bugatti will qualify and presumably the K'egg £2mil+ hybrid. There will soon be a multitude of £100k - £250k hybrids that qualify (I imagine the 488 replacement or it's replacement will be hybrid for instance. Aston's DBX will presumably also qualify). How exactly is that justified ? The buyers of these cars don't buy them because of their fuel efficiency (at the £250k+ level) and of course, most of the time, they are using plenty of polluting fossil fuel which is simply assisted by the battery power, not replaced by the battery power. Plus of course, the subsidy or lack of won't affect the buying decision. But we are still funding £1mil+ car purchases with a tax payer subsidy........

[FrankieBee]

jonby said:

Did you know that the £5k EV subsidy has no cap, so buyers of Porsche 918 or Mclaren P1 get a tax payer (you and me) funded subsidy for £1 Million cars. I suspect the new Bugatti will qualify and presumably the K'egg £2mil+ hybrid. There will soon be a multitude of £100k - £250k hybrids that qualify (I imagine the 488 replacement or it's replacement will be hybrid for instance. Aston's DBX will presumably also qualify). How exactly is that justified ? The buyers of these cars don't buy them because of their fuel efficiency (at the £250k+ level) and of course, most of the time, they are using plenty of polluting fossil fuel which is simply assisted by the battery power, not replaced by the battery power. Plus of course, the subsidy or lack of won't affect the buying decision. But we are still funding £1mil+ car purchases with a tax payer subsidy........

Partly right Jonby. The £5K Government Grant changes from March 2016, but we are still, as tax payer's subsidising the purchase of PHEV/Electric vehicles. I was on the look out for a new 4x4. As a business owner it was a no brainer for the business to lease a Volvo T8 Twin Hybrid PHEV. My BIK is 5% so the P11D is circa £1,200 per annum as a higher rate Tax Payer, compared to £12,000 for a FFRR. I took advantage and got in before the £5K Grant changed.

For anyone interested (not sure there'll be too many on the AM forum!)here's the new rule and categories. Note there is no supercar on the list now...

From 1 March 2016, plug-in car grant levels are changing. The new grant levels will be based on the environmental performance of the vehicle. Ultra low emission vehicles will be placed into categories on the basis of their CO2 emissions and their zero emission range.

The categories are:

Category 1 – CO₂ emissions of less than 50g/km and a zero emission range of at least 70 miles
Category 2 – CO₂ emissions of less than 50g/km and a zero emission range between 10 and 69 miles
Category 3 – CO₂ emissions of 50 to 75g/km and a zero emission range of at least 20 miles

From 1 March 2016 the following rates will apply:
£4,500 for eligible category 1 vehicles
£2,500 for eligible category 2 vehicles
£2,500 for eligible category 3 vehicles

Category 1 Vehicles
BMW i3, BYD e6, Citroen CZero, Ford Focus Electric, Kia Soul EV, Mercedes-Benz B-Class Electric Drive, Mitsubishi iMiEV, Nissan e-NV200 5-seater and 7-seater, Nissan LEAF, Peugeot iON, Renault Fluence, Renault ZOE, Smart fortwo electric drive, Tesla Model S, Toyota Mirai, Volkswagen e-up!, Volkswagen e-Golf

Category 2 Vehicles
Audi A3 e-tron, BMW i8, BMW 225xe, BMW 330e, Mercedes-Benz C350 e, Mitsubishi Outlander, Toyota Prius Plug-in, Vauxhall Ampera, Volkswagen Golf GTE, Volvo V60 D6 Twin Engine, Volvo XC90 T8 Twin Engine

Category 3 Vehicles
Mercedes-Benz S500 Hybrid, Porsche Panamera S E-Hybrid

[jonby]

FrankieBee said:

Partly right Jonby. The £5K Government Grant changes from March 2016

So I just found out on a dedicated thread elsewhere on here. Your full post is extremely interesting

Incidentally, I just tweeted AP regarding MT - he replies 'the only question is when' but doesn't say what models.......


Nick Trott ‏@evoNickTrott · Jan 28
Half an hour with @AndyatAston today delivered three hours worth of info. That's some trick.

jonathan kay ‏@jonbkay · 47m47 minutes ago
@evoNickTrott @AndyatAston but any clues when/whether his promise of MT will become a reality - DB11, V12VS, something else ?

Andy Palmer
‏@AndyatAston @jonbkay @evoNickTrott The question is only when!

[CockAroach]

CockAroach said:

t0s said:

Hanging around this forum certainly creates the impression that there is a lot of support a manual V12Vs. The more likely truth is that its just the dozen or so of us enthusiastic enough about our cars who post in this forum. Perhaps rest of the V12V owners would much rather have something automated. It does seem that there are still a healthy number of V12V's coming into the market - and I'd be curious as to why they are being sold by their owners. Is it because they got tired of shifting?

Edited by t0s on Monday 8th February 12:25

Errrr...currently 1 coupe and 2 roadsters ....is that what you describe as a healthy number?

On closer inspection, there are a total of 3 manuals and 9 autos. So I guess the answer to your question is "No, people are not tired of shifting"

[Jon39]

jonby said:

Did you know that the £5k EV subsidy has no cap, so buyers of Porsche 918 or Mclaren P1 get a tax payer (you and me) funded subsidy for £1 Million cars....

A quirk of the system Jonby, but as you know, the taxpayer is still up on the deal.
We hear certain envious politicians continually wanting higher income tax rates. They never mention the huge amounts of tax paid by the big spenders.
Would it be £200,000 tax on a £1m car?

I can still remember a Prime Minister who believed in lower income tax, hopefully to encourage work and entrepreneurs but more tax on spending, so people could decide for themselves how to spend their money.

..................................

You are in direct contact with AP now?

Perhaps the Autocar article that I mentioned might be correct.
Manual available in the DB11.

[woodsypedia]

I've also had a little twitter exchange with Andy on this back when he was discussing V12's. I'd asked him if there was a commit to manuals and V12's. He said yes. However (and I'm sure I mentioned this previously in another thread too), when I asked him about a Manual V12 - there was no commit. I wonder if this translates to - Aston will do a manual V8, and will continue to do a V12 - but this might not be manual.

Maybe we're all wrong. My guess is that they'll do another manual - but it won't be on the current gen V12V. If they do a manual option, I have an inclining it's more likely to be on the AMG engined V8.

Let's hope I'm wrong

Chris.

[jonby]

Jon39 said:

A quirk of the system Jonby, but as you know, the taxpayer is still up on the deal.
We hear certain envious politicians continually wanting higher income tax rates. They never mention the huge amounts of tax paid by the big spenders.
Would it be £200,000 tax on a £1m car?

..................................

You are in direct contact with AP now?

As it happens I have met him but it was an open tweet - anyone can see it on twitter - AP is pretty approachable although I'm not suggesting he replies to all tweets. He didn't answer my follow up question of which models will get the V12

As for the other point, in general terms I agree with you. I also don't like these taxes on higher earners for the sake of the tone it sets rather than the commercial sensibilities. But there just seems something inherently wrong with the idea of a £5k contribution to EV cars without a cap on the car's value - it's not like it's a complicated anomaly to solve. Whoever didn't put a cap there in the first place is simply poor at their job - it should have been thought through - the sole purpose of the subsidy was to speed up electric car sales and it's patently obvious that at over £100-150k, the subsidy will not help in any way increase sales. But as has been pointed out, the anomaly is solved from March this year anyway.