EVO Test Manual V12S

[JPF40]

http://www.evo.co.uk/aston-martin/v12-vantage/1774...

[JPF40]

And from Xcar, video review ; https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FMwp2bNBLv4

[CPBRI]

A good thing, this manual. No more giant, clunky aluminum gear shift knob? Really liked that.

[cayman-black]

Truly stunning ! thanks for posting.

[12pack]

And here's one from the other side of the pond. Includes instrumented results - but also IMO the best perspective (as in - who cares about the numbers...)

http://www.motortrend.com/news/2017-aston-martin-v...

[jonby]

There have been quite a few reviews now - topgear, evo, autocar are all online today

Understandably, they primarily compare this car to the V12VS with flappies, rather than to original V12V

They all seem enthusiastic about the fact it's been done, a little dismissive of the gimmicks but suggest as they can be turned off so it doesn't matter and on the whole, say whilst a touch niche, it's a good thing

What concerns me a little however is that they also all say it's not the easiest box to live with - the fact it springs back naturally to 4/5th gear, the fact it's not the sweetest shift, that it's very easy to get the wrong gear, etc.

Now I wouldn't jump to any conclusions before driving it myself, but it does sound from the reviews that looking at the box alone (i.e. forgetting the power increase and electronic adjustable suspension that were the main differences other than gearbox with V12 to V12VS), the original manual box may be 'preferable'. I really wanted them to be more enthusiastic about this specific box, rather than what the reviews appear to say which is along the lines of, V12VS is great as a manual, not that it's great with this manual box

I'm interested to see if others are interpreting the reviews the same way

I'd also say that being quirky and a touch awkward can potentially be a good thing so even if it is those things, it doesn't mean it won't be desirable to me & many others

Incidentally I'm just back from a road trip in my V12V roadster. The companions were a 997 GT3RS gen2, Lambo late model 560bhp 4wd Gallardo and a Lambo Huracan. We did some high speed cross country runs and when the lambos put their foot down at say 50-60mph cruising speed and went up to, lets just say some high speeds (this was in Belgium & Germany), they couldn't pull away from my Aston. gen 1 Aston V12 certainly doesn't need more power is basically what I'm saying, much as of course I'd prefer to have the later engine all other things being equal. At the pumps after one mornings drive, I'd used 47 litres compared to between 30 & 37 litres by the other cars, as of course you work the Aston harder to drive fast and I was spending a lot of time at 5-7k revs

Edited by jonby on Wednesday 18th May 13:13

[12pack]

jonby said:

What concerns me a little however is that they also all say it's not the easiest box to live with - the fact it springs back naturally to 4/5th gear, the fact it's not the sweetest shift, that it's very easy to get the wrong gear, etc.

Indeed. Also worth also noting that the 7 speed ratios from 2nd onwards have the shift points around 10 mph shorter each than the current manual. Which means on track days a lot more shifting in the 40-140mph range that I am usually in.

[gibbon]

I havnt driven the v12, so forgive me, but isnt one of the virtues of the v12 the flat torque curve?

I guess if, by your own admission, you were having to work the car harder than the others, then maybe it was lagging a little behind its companions? Though hardly surprising. I would have had the others down as far more rev hungry engines.

Sounds like a fantastic trip!

[Padley69]

My CAR mag dropped on my door mat the other day and it also includes a similarly enthusiastic review. Like these other reviews, it highlights the emotional side of the driving experience and the simple pleasures of a manual gearbox.
Not exactly the same I appreciate, but I don't see Lewis Hamilton's in-car 'flappy-paddle' footage making me feel like this does...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMQgoOaqPnw

long live the manual box

[JPF40]

I like the fact that the gearbox is not the easiest to use. Finally a car you need to master, just like an F40, you cannot just get in and mash it.

[jonby]

gibbon said:

I havnt driven the v12, so forgive me, but isnt one of the virtues of the v12 the flat torque curve?

I guess if, by your own admission, you were having to work the car harder than the others, then maybe it was lagging a little behind its companions? Though hardly surprising. I would have had the others down as far more rev hungry engines.

Sounds like a fantastic trip!

I just meant that on paper and round a track, all other things being equal the lambos are faster cars. Huracan is supposedly as fast and in some instances faster, than an Aventador in the real world. Yet in those specific circumstances, i.e. putting your foot down in 3rd/4th gear and going flat out, they didn't pull away. But when I drive the Aston very quickly, I am constantly changing gears (manually of course) and pushing very hard on the throttle in a way I suspect the lambos didn't have to nearly as much. The RS is a little different, as compared to the Aston, it's advantages are handling related more than straight line punch

[jonby]

JPF40 said:

I like the fact that the gearbox is not the easiest to use. Finally a car you need to master, just like an F40, you cannot just get in and mash it.

Agreed. Question is though, when you do master it, is it better, similar or worse than the box in V12V - I have no definitive opinion on the answer to that question, but my inclination from reading the reviews is that it's probably no better than V12V box

I love the coolness & quirkiness of dog leg boxes. I've enjoyed driving a couple of cars 20 odd yrs ago with such boxes. But as someone who already has a manual V12V, I've been a little underwhelmed by the reviews. Can't stress enough that until I drive one, I won't definitively have an opinion, because I disagree with most reviewers' condemnation of the V12VS flappy paddle box (which I have driven)

[gibbon]

jonby said:

I just meant that on paper and round a track, all other things being equal the lambos are faster cars. Huracan is supposedly as fast and in some instances faster, than an Aventador in the real world. Yet in those specific circumstances, i.e. putting your foot down in 3rd/4th gear and going flat out, they didn't pull away. But when I drive the Aston very quickly, I am constantly changing gears (manually of course) and pushing very hard on the throttle in a way I suspect the lambos didn't have to nearly as much. The RS is a little different, as compared to the Aston, it's advantages are handling related more than straight line punch

Makes sense, in real world situations, i dont think there is a lot between any of these cars to be honest.

[gibbon]

I had a dog leg box in a 60s porsche, once used to it i loved it. On a track you never use first gear outside of a standing start, and i would guess in real life you rarely really need first in a v12s due to torque. I would also say finding first is really not an issue with a little seat time.

[JPF40]

jonby said:

Agreed. Question is though, when you do master it, is it better, similar or worse than the box in V12V - I have no definitive opinion on the answer to that question, but my inclination from reading the reviews is that it's probably no better than V12V box

I love the coolness & quirkiness of dog leg boxes. I've enjoyed driving a couple of cars 20 odd yrs ago with such boxes. But as someone who already has a manual V12V, I've been a little underwhelmed by the reviews. Can't stress enough that until I drive one, I won't definitively have an opinion, because I disagree with most reviewers' condemnation of the V12VS flappy paddle box (which I have driven)

Dont think of it as a 7 speed, think 6 speed manual with two first gears.

My DBS manual feels like it would be a better car if 2nd, 3rd and 4th were closer together, and that it seems is what the V12SM seems to be offering.More rowing!

[DB9VolanteDriver]

JPF40 said:

I like the fact that the gearbox is not the easiest to use. Finally a car you need to master, just like an F40, you cannot just get in and mash it.

Seriously? Wouldn't you prefer a box that was silky smooth? Makes shifting a joy rather than a chore. I like boxes that allow you to instinctively slot into the proper gear without having to 'think' about it. No blown shifts, just enjoyable rowing.

[JPF40]

DB9VolanteDriver said:

Seriously? Wouldn't you prefer a box that was silky smooth? Makes shifting a joy rather than a chore. I like boxes that allow you to instinctively slot into the proper gear without having to 'think' about it. No blown shifts, just enjoyable rowing.

Smooth yes.

The instinctive part I think will come with time. I'm only guessing but I think most of the journalists reviewing the car were thinking too much about what gear they were in, and as a result not as smooth or direct as it could be or should be.

I always considered 2nd in my F40 as 1st and it worked a treat, that was gearbox that you had to learn to use, initially it was neither smooth or instinctive. Given time the whole process was smooth and instinctive, its just time.

I like to row my Defender, but friends drive it they ask how the hell its possible to drive smoothly! Its time in the seat.

[V8 Vantage GT]

DB9VolanteDriver said:

Seriously? Wouldn't you prefer a box that was silky smooth? Makes shifting a joy rather than a chore. I like boxes that allow you to instinctively slot into the proper gear without having to 'think' about it. No blown shifts, just enjoyable rowing.

Hmmm... let me think about that. NO

[12pack]

DB9VolanteDriver said:

Seriously? Wouldn't you prefer a box that was silky smooth? Makes shifting a joy rather than a chore. I like boxes that allow you to instinctively slot into the proper gear without having to 'think' about it. No blown shifts, just enjoyable rowing.

+1 With you on this. While I wouldn't enjoy an over-engineered DCT, I think a badly engineered manual would be worse. Given how polite reviewers usually are, I'd want to give this one a thorough test before any plunge.

[roughrider]

JPF40 said:

jonby said:

Agreed. Question is though, when you do master it, is it better, similar or worse than the box in V12V - I have no definitive opinion on the answer to that question, but my inclination from reading the reviews is that it's probably no better than V12V box

I love the coolness & quirkiness of dog leg boxes. I've enjoyed driving a couple of cars 20 odd yrs ago with such boxes. But as someone who already has a manual V12V, I've been a little underwhelmed by the reviews. Can't stress enough that until I drive one, I won't definitively have an opinion, because I disagree with most reviewers' condemnation of the V12VS flappy paddle box (which I have driven)

Dont think of it as a 7 speed, think 6 speed manual with two first gears.

My DBS manual feels like it would be a better car if 2nd, 3rd and 4th were closer together, and that it seems is what the V12SM seems to be offering.More rowing!

Exactly, treat it like a six speed, you would only use first gear on an uphill set-off. Treat second as first gear, and so on. It makes sense to drive, as the 4th/5th plane, is 3rd/4th plane on an Aston six speed manual. Its smooth as silk, and as easy to use as the Gen 1 V12 manual. If you use the AM Shift mode, it makes you sound like a real pro-driver!