EVO Test Manual V12S

[12pack]

I believe the advantages of a dog leg are well understood, especially the 2-3 shift on track. I'm just not liking what the reviewers are reporting about it wanting to spring strongly to the center (4-5 plane) and the notchiness. I hated the shifter on my previous F355 for very similar reasons, which ruined the car for me. Am planning to give a this a test myself as soon as possible.

Edited by 12pack on Wednesday 18th May 21:36

[AdamV12V]

JPF40 said:

And from Xcar, video review ; https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FMwp2bNBLv4

Nice video, and to date the only video review. Thanks for posting!

12pack said:

And here's one from the other side of the pond. Includes instrumented results - but also IMO the best perspective (as in - who cares about the numbers...)

http://www.motortrend.com/news/2017-aston-martin-v...

A very good written review, the pick of the bunch for me. He certainly seems to have capture the why the 7speed dogleg gearbox an attractive proposition, albeit the dogleg being more for nostalgic reasons rather than technical - well at least for me anyway.

I suspect that you guys who are flapping about the 4-5 vertical bias are going to end up realising its just a worry about nothing really. I cant see why it will be materially any different to driving any 7 speed manual box which all have to have 4 vertical planes of gears. I just don't see why it matters if its as the AM 7spd i.e.

R--2-4-6
-1-3-5-7

or

R-1-3-5-7
--2-4-6

as is the layout with 7-speed manual in the Porsche 991.

Each of these boxes will have one of the vertical planes as a bias. I have driven the 991 7-spd manual and I don't recall which plane the gearbox was biased to, but more to the point I don't recall having a problem with selecting a gear, and like the AM system both have 4 planes, so... The pattern for up a gear or down a gear is the same on both boxes, so where the starting place is just doesn't matter much. Besides I personally do a lot more 2nd / 3rd gear changes than I do 1st / 2nd so having 1st on its own plane and 2nd / 3rd together makes a lot more sense to me. Either way, I just don't see it being a problem unless the bias is way too strong compared to another 7spd manual box.

A few people have posted in the "Winter V12V watch" thread about relative value and performance to the old V12V. I loved my V12V, but I wanted a brand new car again and never really felt sure enough about SSIII to take the plunge, so this car is the ideal for me in terms of timing and gearbox. Sure the V12V box was a very good one, but I don't see that this box has to be better, just as long as its not as bad as the V8V box/clutch was. Remember this is just the SSIII gearbox underneath with the auto aspects removed, so I don't see why it will be any different and I don't recall anybody specifically saying the ratios or box itself is bad, just that some journalists don't like the semi-automated aspects of it which they say results in a lack of smoothness.

Anyway for me the reason to buy is that its a brand new manual V12 Vantage. The fact the manual is a 7speed is a big bonus, the fact its a dogleg is a potential nice little touch but not the main deal here. The fact the engine is the revised 563bhp version and all the other countless little revisions such as AMi-III are also significant factors, but the main deal is that its brand NEW Vantage again, with the right engine and the right type of gearbox for me.

AM may or may not sell many of these to customers who view the manual quite as critical as I do, but the fact is they are selling new V12VS's, so the question will just be to see how many opt for the manual and how many opt for SSIII. Dealer stock will always be SSIII - AM have made it clear that manual build will be specifically for orders only, so in this respect the final production is likely to favour SSIII, which probably going to make the manual all the rarer. I will be over the moon if they only end up making a handful of these cars as it will make my already rare colour choice even rarer than hens teeth given its a manual, which is likely to be quite good for residual value.

[AdamV12V]

A quote taken from the thread discussing the main PH article posted yesterday. Dan is the PH author of the review.

Dan Trent said:

twinturban said:

I've still never heard anyone describe how the new S engine compares to the 510bhp version. Does the car feel any faster than the early V12 Vantage? Does it feel more powerful at higher revs or is it an incremental increase across the rev range? It sounds identical on video, does it sound any different in reality?

Given your experience of the original car you're probably in a better position to comment than I am so maybe you need to book a test drive and report back for us! It's been a while since I drove the first gen V12 but, as I remember it, the shift wasn't as good as this new one. The new one feels to have a shorter throw and a slightly tighter gate too. As for the engines I think the AM28 generation V12 - especially in this application - feels stronger across the board, with a definite sense of improved breathing and a more exciting top end. Again, you probably have more recent memory than I do but my recollection of the original V12 Vantage was that it was hugely brawny but not instinctively an engine you'd seek to rev out. The AM28 doesn't feel as restricted, spins more freely and keeps giving all the way to the redline. Though opportunities to do that are somewhat limited on the road, it has to be said. I'll have to read back on my notes but I'd venture there's a bit less inertia in the later engine too; that or a better throttle response. It certainly feels easier and more instinctive to heel'n'toe than the first one. And while I respect your more extensive experience of the car you owned I think the ride and handling in the second-gen cars is night and day better. I remember the original I drove really struggling for traction over bumps but this car could take meaningful amounts of throttle on bumpy roads like the one in the vid clip without getting too flighty.

I know a chap with a first-gen V12 so next time we get a go in this new one I'll give him a shout and perhaps we can drive them back to back to offer a more meaningful comparison. Before that we've got a follow up to this story with another interesting alternative that we shot and drove on the same day. But I won't spoil the surprise on that one!

Cheers,

Dan

[AdamV12V]

Another good review here by our friends across the pond.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/first-drives/...

To quote specifically what they have to say about the gearbox:

www.roadandtrack.com said:

And then we have the gearbox. Oh that glorious gearbox. This is what a dogleg layout was made for. Putting the gears you use in straight lines just makes so much sense, you have to wonder why every gearbox isn't designed this way. You never risk putting the car into first by accident. Shifts are faster, more accurate. The Aston also has something called AM Shift, which is a rev-matching feature for smoother downshifts. If you don't know how to heel-toe, it works surprisingly well. It also allows for full throttle upshifts.

[northernmedia]

Sounds like a cracker Adam.
Course having lost the use of my left leg I'll be sticking, for now

[cayman-black]

AdamV12V said:

A very good written review, the pick of the bunch for me. He certainly seems to have capture the why the 7speed dogleg gearbox an attractive proposition, albeit the dogleg being more for nostalgic reasons rather than technical - well at least for me anyway.

I suspect that you guys who are flapping about the 4-5 vertical bias are going to end up realising its just a worry about nothing really. I cant see why it will be materially any different to driving any 7 speed manual box which all have to have 4 vertical planes of gears. I just don't see why it matters if its as the AM 7spd i.e.

R--2-4-6
-1-3-5-7

or

R-1-3-5-7
--2-4-6

as is the layout with 7-speed manual in the Porsche 991.

Each of these boxes will have one of the vertical planes as a bias. I have driven the 991 7-spd manual and I don't recall which plane the gearbox was biased to, but more to the point I don't recall having a problem with selecting a gear, and like the AM system both have 4 planes, so... The pattern for up a gear or down a gear is the same on both boxes, so where the starting place is just doesn't matter much. Besides I personally do a lot more 2nd / 3rd gear changes than I do 1st / 2nd so having 1st on its own plane and 2nd / 3rd together makes a lot more sense to me. Either way, I just don't see it being a problem unless the bias is way too strong compared to another 7spd manual box.

A few people have posted in the "Winter V12V watch" thread about relative value and performance to the old V12V. I loved my V12V, but I wanted a brand new car again and never really felt sure enough about SSIII to take the plunge, so this car is the ideal for me in terms of timing and gearbox. Sure the V12V box was a very good one, but I don't see that this box has to be better, just as long as its not as bad as the V8V box/clutch was. Remember this is just the SSIII gearbox underneath with the auto aspects removed, so I don't see why it will be any different and I don't recall anybody specifically saying the ratios or box itself is bad, just that some journalists don't like the semi-automated aspects of it which they say results in a lack of smoothness.

Anyway for me the reason to buy is that its a brand new manual V12 Vantage. The fact the manual is a 7speed is a big bonus, the fact its a dogleg is a potential nice little touch but not the main deal here. The fact the engine is the revised 563bhp version and all the other countless little revisions such as AMi-III are also significant factors, but the main deal is that its brand NEW Vantage again, with the right engine and the right type of gearbox for me.

AM may or may not sell many of these to customers who view the manual quite as critical as I do, but the fact is they are selling new V12VS's, so the question will just be to see how many opt for the manual and how many opt for SSIII. Dealer stock will always be SSIII - AM have made it clear that manual build will be specifically for orders only, so in this respect the final production is likely to favour SSIII, which probably going to make the manual all the rarer. I will be over the moon if they only end up making a handful of these cars as it will make my already rare colour choice even rarer than hens teeth given its a manual, which is likely to be quite good for residual value.

Cant argue with that, it will indeed be the perfect car for you!

[Speedraser]

^^^Neither can I, except regarding the knock against the V8V's 'box. Mine is superb.

[12pack]

Speedraser said:

^^^Neither can I, except regarding the knock against the V8V's 'box. Mine is superb.

Having come from a V8V myself I do note the V12V box to be a little less notchy, especially for the 1-2 shift. I found I had to pull it down and slightly away (towards the passenger) for the quickest shift on the V8V

However, since you are in the US you might not notice this, as you will be pulling down and slightly towards yourself - which is a more natural motion.

Edited by 12pack on Tuesday 24th May 09:22

[hornbaek]

As much as i love the introduction of the manual V12VS i can't get my head around the fact that it is completely overpriced. You take an almost 10 year old design (admittedly a very good one) and then backwards - engineer a manual gearbox option on top of the automated manual and offer the combination at STG 150k +.

You can pretty much pick up a V12V or V12VS at around 90 - 100k these days so isn't this just a recipe for writing off 50k the moment you leave the dealers gate ? I can hardly think that they will sell a lot of V12 VS Manuals as a result. It is a bit like "We have taken last year's model then added a bit of yesteryear's technology to it and sell it at a premium". ?

[cayman-black]

Over priced, have you seen the price of 911s these days? Don't agree at all if anything they should hold there money well as there will only be a few.
Even if the box is not as good as the original.

[sukh_m]

hornbaek said:

As much as i love the introduction of the manual V12VS i can't get my head around the fact that it is completely overpriced. You take an almost 10 year old design (admittedly a very good one) and then backwards - engineer a manual gearbox option on top of the automated manual and offer the combination at STG 150k +.

You can pretty much pick up a V12V or V12VS at around 90 - 100k these days so isn't this just a recipe for writing off 50k the moment you leave the dealers gate ? I can hardly think that they will sell a lot of V12 VS Manuals as a result. It is a bit like "We have taken last year's model then added a bit of yesteryear's technology to it and sell it at a premium". ?

Was thinking this very thing when I was specing one online, spot on...hence why I shutdown the webpage

[hornbaek]

cayman-black said:

Over priced, have you seen the price of 911s these days? Don't agree at all if anything they should hold there money well as there will only be a few.
Even if the box is not as good as the original.

I beg to differ. The Porsche Turbo S is brand spanking new technology. You might not like it, neither do I, but it is pushing the envelope in terms of where the current technology stands. You can say the same about Ferrari, McLaren etc etc. So at least they are trying to amortise money spend in developing that technology. At Aston is is different. They are parading yester-years technology (to the point that they are only allowed to sell 100 cars in the US due to emissions) at today's supercar prices. The price for the V12VS should be set in the context of in which league it is playing.

[Mac355]

hornbaek said:

I beg to differ. The Porsche Turbo S is brand spanking new technology. You might not like it, neither do I, but it is pushing the envelope in terms of where the current technology stands. You can say the same about Ferrari, McLaren etc etc. So at least they are trying to amortise money spend in developing that technology. At Aston is is different. They are parading yester-years technology (to the point that they are only allowed to sell 100 cars in the US due to emissions) at today's supercar prices. The price for the V12VS should be set in the context of in which league it is playing.

I couldn't agree more.
I was very excited when the manual was announced, and I am/was genuinely tempted to upgrade from my 2011 V8 Roadster.
However the price to change is just silly.
Also Aston have turned the normal logic of a "run-out" model on it's head, usually the manufacturer would be keen on price, and include more toys, and offer a very high spec....
Not AM they are decontenting the cars, and playing the same old tricks that mainstream players do, to such an extent that items that are standard on my 5 year old car are now "extras" e.g. High quality leather, and leather on the section behind the seats.
For God's sake i get it, on up selling extras, but surely there should be items that are just part of the Aston DNA?
They should have waited for the new generation of vehicles to try such an approach, and then it would have been far less noticeable to current owners, that they were now being asked to pay (much) more for less.
I guess in the end the market will decide which approach is correct

[JPF40]

Trying to justify the price is for me irrelevant.

Cars at the same price point? Car punching above its weight?

Rubbish. I have a 991 Turbo S and it is very fast, thing is to exploit that tech you need to driving the car as if you wanted kill yourself or other road users. It still lacks excitment.

So for the same money I can buy a monster V12 manual, its unique, along with a last hurrah!

If you try and look at it logically, its not for you.

But tech??

A Purdey shotgun hasnt changed much in nearly 100 years, its never needed too, even though technology has moved on.

Some cars are the same.

[northernmedia]

Damnit, I wish I'd replied with that.
Sums it up perfectly.

[AdamV12V]

The perceived value of the V12VS manual is relative and somewhat personal. The base price of the car hasn't really changed much in the last 5 years, yes the last model year or so has introduced some rather dubious cost saving spec changes by AM, but in the grand scale of things these do not add up to much (perhaps £3-4k max) and overall inflation would have had an equal if not greater effect on actual price.

The used car market seems to value rarity far more than technical competence. Just look at the V12VR - they are worth far more than either V12V coupe or V12VS or indeed V12VSR, which is primarily driven by the rarity rather than the fact it is a materially better car than either of it's siblings. The V12VS Manual will undoubtedly be rare, just how many remains to be seen but there will not be many in the UK and even globally that is for sure. I for one expect this will mean V12V Man is likely, (not guaranteed I accept) to mean it should retain a higher resale price than discounted SSIII models do. Relative depreciation against each versions actual buy price is much harder to predict.

Also don't forget that all the Manual orders are going to be factory customer orders (or so we are told), so on this basis it seems very unlikely that there will be discounted dealer stock cars at any stage in the fairly short production run. This is what happened extensively with the old V12V in the last couple of years of production and to a lesser extent still exists with V12VS SS and V8V(S) models today. At their peak level of discount V12V were being sold brand new for not much over £100k new, which was a huge discount and has left its legacy on used prices, which are only just starting to recover a little. At the opposite extreme was the V12VR which was pretty much sold at RRP only (notional loyalty discounts not withstanding) and not surprisingly these have a much higher used price now. Compare the actual loss on each car and the difference isn't that much.

The argument of comparing the value of a new V12VS to a new 991 Turbo S is also very interesting. Yes the 991 TTS will pretty much trounce the V12VS is every conceivable way you may choose to measure it's performance and general technical capabilities, however don't mistake that meaning the 991 Turbo S is therefore a better buy. The depreciation on them from new is eye watering to say the least, so in respect of this aspect alone I would argue that a V12VS Man is likely (again no guarantees on retained value) to prove much better "value". A GT3RS maybe an entirely different ball game again, but then being allowed to buy one of those by Porsche is beyond challenging.

Looking at just the Astons line up to determine value is also tricky. The V12VS may well be a 10yr old design, but as said above its a good one and the new V12VS 7spd Man model represents the end of the line, best of the best and in the future I believe will be looked back upon as THE one to buy, ltd edition Zagato/GT12/GT8 excepted. So compare the £140k base price for the V12VS Man to say the £155k for a new DB11 and it suddenly looks pretty fair value - I would be willing to place a pretty decent bet that when they are both say 3yrs old that the V12VS Man will be worth more than £15k less than a DB11. I guess I am placing such a bet by buying one, so...

hornbaek - I know from your previous posts that you were a bit unlucky with the retained value on your V12V, perhaps on hindsight not buying and selling at the best time, but I have not lost £50k on my last V12V and would be surprised (and disappointed) if I do on my new V12VS Man order. The loss on my V12V over the last 4 years from brand new to sale (after dealer margin) is likely to be just £20k, i.e. £5k p/a which in my books is pretty damn good for a new car of this value. Hell you could loose more on BMW/Merc at half the cost price.

I will be selling my new 981 GT4 to get the V12VS Man, which many would say is insane as by almost any performance measure the GT4 is too is a far better car than V12VS and it is just half the price to buy, but you know what, no matter how competent and good value I try to convince myself that the GT4 is, I just don't love it or enjoy driving it as much as I do my V12V, so for me at least, it is a significantly worse car.

Anyway the choice is down to each individual and I think what I am trying to say is value is somewhat in the eye of the beholder, so can't be judged just on technical competence, retained value or any other single measure. If you don't want one and don't see value then just don't buy one and move on. I really don't care if I am the only person in the UK who buys one, in fact that would almost certainly turn out to be extremely good for the retained value of mine, the fact is its the car I want to buy and to me it's therefore it has "value". I'm not interested in a DB11, a 991 TTS, my GT4 or even a GT3RS. If I do end up loosing £50k on it, well then that's life. I really don't expect to, but then I could die tomorrow too, which I should add I also don't expect to.

[IanV12VR]

A lot of people wouldn't understand that attitude Adam but I truly understand the point of view you express. Sometimes something gets under your skin and you just have to go with. Can't wait to see it when you collect it.

[RobDown]

This is exactly why I started a thread a while back with my theory that people confuse the concept of the initial purchase price with the cost of ownership. A new v12vs manual price is higher than that of a used v12vs (no st sherlock - a new car is more expensive than a used one!). But I will bet a large sum of money that on, say a 3-5 year view the depreciation on the v12vs manual will be less than a 1 year old with the sportshift. It's just a function of rarity

So which one is better value? (As if buying as Aston Martin was ever truly a question of value!!!)

[12pack]

AdamV12V said:

I will be selling my new 981 GT4 to get the V12VS Man, which many would say is insane as by almost any performance measure the GT4 is too is a far better car than V12VS

..not so sure about that. The 981 GT4 is indeed a scalpel - but the V12VS makes a mighty fine hammer

[DkVelo]

12pack said:

I believe the advantages of a dog leg are well understood, especially the 2-3 shift on track. I'm just not liking what the reviewers are reporting about it wanting to spring strongly to the center (4-5 plane) and the notchiness. I hated the shifter on my previous F355 for very similar reasons, which ruined the car for me. Am planning to give a this a test myself as soon as possible.

Edited by 12pack on Wednesday 18th May 21:36

From a purely functionel view from someone who has only "youtube driven" it
If you treat is a 6 speed with a crawl gear. The 4/5 as mentioned will be 3/4

And if you know that the car will select these gear if you don't force it.
Then you can be more shure about what gear you are going in to, because you will have to persuade it into the gear you want, that isn't the 4th or the 5th. This making it more difficult to blow up the engine because of miss shifting.

I would really like to try it, since, yeah.
V12 manual in a pretty car, which petrol head wouldn't want to drive that?