V12S Manual

[Jon39]

wtdoom said:

Does anyone know when this car goes out of production ?

The rumour mill consensus on here, is an expectation for the new model Vantage to be unveiled at the Geneva Motor Show in March 2017. If so, the normal pattern would be, for the present model to end in late summer, with new model production starting in September, the begining of the 2018 Model Year.

The origins of that timescale idea, was the appeal by AML to the USA authorities, for USA sales of the present Vantage to be allowed to continue until September 2018.

As the replacement will be V8 only, I wonder if the present V12VS might continue for a while, after the V8V as ended. A Mercedes C63 model as just been announced, using a version of the same V8 engine, producing over 600 bhp, even more powerful I think, than the V12 Vantage GT12. Therefore the top model Vantage Mk2, will not need a V12 engine, and I also think, there is a 4 litre limit now in some countries.

There was recently a reported comment on here by a main dealer salesman, that the Vantage replacement would not be seen until 2018.

Of course, the correct answer to your question, is that we do not know.

If I were you, I would tell Dr. Palmer now, that you want to buy the last customer car produced. You never know, that might work for you. Possibly might involve an extra charge, but surely worth it, and you know it is going to a jolly good cause.

Edited by Jon39 on Sunday 6th November 13:09

[wtdoom]

Thank you gents , very helpful indeed !

How to reach this man of which you speak Mr Jon39?

Edited by wtdoom on Sunday 6th November 13:07

[divetheworld]

wtdoom said:

I'm following this thread with massive interest . Debating one of these and this thread has really helped .

Does anyone know when this car goes out of production ?

Well, DB9 production stopped and the last ones went off in July. Knowing when the DB11 orders were taken and first ones delivered, against when DB9 orders were stopped gives you a heads up.
As a gauge it might also help to note that orders for the V12 manual were discontinued on April 19th 2013. My car was June 26th so you can assume that they will still be rolling out a couple of months or so after orders cease.
I expect as a guess that orders will cease about the same time next year.

[CSK1]

Jon39 said:

Therefore the top model Vantage Mk2, will not need a V12 engine

No the Vantage doesn't need a NA V12 engine but we're so glad the current Vantage range offers the possibility to have one.
I'm sure the new AMG V8 in various states of tune will be more efficient but surely efficiency is not why we buy an Aston is it?
We would all be driving German cars if this were the case.

[Jon39]

wtdoom said:

Thank you gents , very helpful indeed !

How to reach this man of which you speak Mr Jon39?

If you want to make the request that I suggested, then how about begining with a personal letter. Probably worth using your Conqueror Laid Paper and best calligraphy.

I expect there will be tremendous competition, amongst customers who want the last car, but don't accidentally slip any £50 notes in with your letter.

Edited by Jon39 on Sunday 6th November 14:50

[RobDown]

wtdoom said:

Thank you gents , very helpful indeed !

How to reach this man of which you speak Mr Jon39?

Edited by wtdoom on Sunday 6th November 13:07

Tweet him if you're serious he's very customer friendly

[Jon39]

RobDown said:

Tweet him if you're serious, he's very customer friendly

You are very modern, Rob.

When you send a Twitter or Bookface, does that mean everyone in the world can see your message?
If so, the 'cat would be out of the bag', about the desirability of buying the very last customer Vantage.
Many other people would then also want it.
At least not too many people read this forum.

That same keep quiet negotiating tactic achieved a discount for me, when buying my Aston Martin. I wanted a rare special order colour, but did not mention to the salesman that I knew anything about colours, or that I would have willingly paid the full price.

Is giving away one's plan to the other side in advance, exactly what our Government seem about to do?

Edited by Jon39 on Sunday 6th November 20:44

[northernmedia]

I've chatted to him a few times on twitface, top chap

[Ken Figenus]

Jon39 said:

Is giving away one's plan to the other side in advance, exactly what our Government seem about to do?
]

Plan?

[Speedraser]

Firstly, congrats to all the V12VS manual buyers. Secondly...

I agree that the cost-cutting in the details goes against much of what makes an Aston special. That attention to detail is a major part of the appeal to me, and I've noticed over the last several years that a number of things have gotten cheaper -- it's really quite obvious. The carpet in the rear area of the Vantage SHOUTS cheapening. Some years ago the leather gaiters on the seatbelt latches began to disappear. This was a beautifully done detail, complete with stitching. I bought my '09 V8V new and as a keeper, and I love it. I still enjoy admiring those details -- including the detailing and finishes under the bonnet, the quality of the leather, those gaiters, the metal fuel cap, etc. These are among the things that truly distinguish Astons from nearly everything else. The only car to have tempted me out of my V8V is a V12V, and now the manual V12VS, but the cheapening of the cars is a move in the wrong direction. Every Aston should be a super-premium product, and it should be apparent in the details.

I would be very excited and interested in the new Vantage, BUT... Although we don't know the details yet, it seems like a near certainty that it will have an off-the-shelf AMG V8. That's horrible. A non-Aston engine is the ULTIMATE cost-cutting/cheapening of the marque (as would be a shared platform). That is an absolute deal-breaker for me. Clearly, AM (and Andy) understands that this matters since they've spent the time and money to develop the new 5.2 V12. Yes, I know the gestation of the current V8 and V12. But a dedicated intake and exhaust (for example) does not an Aston engine make, and if that's what the new V8 engine turns out to be, I will not be a buyer, regardless of how powerful/fast it may be.

[Jon39]

Speedraser said:

... it seems like a near certainty that it will have an off-the-shelf AMG V8. That's horrible. A non-Aston engine is the ULTIMATE cost-cutting/cheapening of the marque (as would be a shared platform). That is an absolute deal-breaker for me.

You have previously made your opinion about this very clear.

In an ideal world I would share your views, but as we all know, there is no choice because the Company only has a future if it can become profitable. Therefore, partner engines and the SUV are things that we reluctantly have to accept, if we want to enjoy more new Aston Martin sports cars. The famous phrase comes to mind, 'there is no money left' (debt is about £500m).

The Aston Martin DB11 engine must be a development of their existing long serving V12.
The engine bore is identical (89mm), whereas the crankshaft has been changed to provide the stroke 69·7mm (previously 79·5mm), reducing the capacity to 5204cc (from 5935cc).

[northernmedia]

I thought the rocker covers / ancillaries etc looked familiar.
Epic engine even so.

[northernmedia]

....now then, what about a twin turbo'd 5.9?
Mmmmmmm.

[spyker138]

Jon39 said:

In an ideal world I would share your views, but as we all know, there is no choice because the Company only has a future if it can become profitable. Therefore, partner engines and the SUV are things that we reluctantly have to accept, if we want to enjoy more new Aston Martin sports cars. The famous phrase comes to mind, 'there is no money left' (debt is about £500m).

The Aston Martin DB11 engine must be a development of their existing long serving V12.
The engine bore is identical (89mm), whereas the crankshaft has been changed to provide the stroke 69·7mm (previously 79·5mm), reducing the capacity to 5204cc (from 5935cc)

Disagree. Aston has always charged a big premium over Jags and MB etc and having its own engine in low production numbers was one of the appeals to make that premium worth it. Bentley manage with the Conti to get away with it but they don't skimp on the details or the leather - you are literally smothered in it. I personally don't want anything to do with an Aston with a C-series mousey thingy, TFT or AMG engines. Not saying they should not do it if that's the only way out of the mess (of trying to go for volume ten years ago) but they should do so with their eyes open to the clients they will lose.

Modern manufacturing techniques mean that small volume production is ever more viable - and for some, seeing fewer dealers, fewer production lines and a re-focus on using todays technology for small run high quality cars should be the way to go. I'd even pay 3x an f-type for the privilege.

Edited by spyker138 on Monday 7th November 20:17

Edited by spyker138 on Monday 7th November 20:19

[V8 Vantage GT]

callevascm said:

Interestingly there is clear a cost cutting exercise going-on which at one level is understandable if you are returning consistent losses but not at the expense of diluting the brand. Personally, I was confused by the decision to offer a lower quality "Strathmore" interior leather but the previous standard "Caithness" was an additional £995 - Strathmore certainly was not an option for me. A couple of days ago I was looking at the engine bay - I knew something had changed but couldn't put my finger on it - then I noticed the AM badge was missing and the cast Aston Martin in the manifolds no longer polished -now I guess that less than 5% of owners would notice but ......it does seem to be a trend. By the way I am yet to find the equaliser controls on the Premium Audio (£1495) and wonder if that has been a cost reduction measure too?

|http://thumbsnap.com/IM6qBIYY[/url][url]

I noticed this too this weekend. The wings are missing from all the 2016's V8's & V12's. It just sad. One of those small details that that makes Aston's less special without them.

[Speedraser]

spyker138 said:

Jon39 said:

In an ideal world I would share your views, but as we all know, there is no choice because the Company only has a future if it can become profitable. Therefore, partner engines and the SUV are things that we reluctantly have to accept, if we want to enjoy more new Aston Martin sports cars. The famous phrase comes to mind, 'there is no money left' (debt is about £500m).

The Aston Martin DB11 engine must be a development of their existing long serving V12.
The engine bore is identical (89mm), whereas the crankshaft has been changed to provide the stroke 69·7mm (previously 79·5mm), reducing the capacity to 5204cc (from 5935cc)

Disagree. Aston has always charged a big premium over Jags and MB etc and having its own engine in low production numbers was one of the appeals to make that premium worth it. Bentley manage with the Conti to get away with it but they don't skimp on the details or the leather - you are literally smothered in it. I personally don't want anything to do with an Aston with a C-series mousey thingy, TFT or AMG engines. Not saying they should not do it if that's the only way out of the mess (of trying to go for volume ten years ago) but they should do so with their eyes open to the clients they will lose.

Modern manufacturing techniques mean that small volume production is ever more viable - and for some, seeing fewer dealers, fewer production lines and a re-focus on using todays technology for small run high quality cars should be the way to go. I'd even pay 3x an f-type for the privilege.

Edited by spyker138 on Monday 7th November 20:17

Edited by spyker138 on Monday 7th November 20:19

This. Jon, I continue to make this point because IMO it's absolutely critical. How can you say with certainty that someone else's engine is the ONLY choice? I don't know that to be a fact. Do you? It's cheaper. Cheaper doesn't mean only. Astons deserve better than cheaper -- Astons deserve an Aston engine. For me, it's utterly pointless otherwise, and I'd hate to see Aston decline into a company that uses others' engines. A Ferrari without a Ferrari engine would lose all credibility. No reason Aston should be any different. Shared platforms next? Oh, and for me, Bentley does not get away with it -- it's a major reason I've never wanted, nor spent my money on, a Conti series.

[Jon39]

Speedraser said:

This. Jon, I continue to make this point because IMO it's absolutely critical. How can you say with certainty that someone else's engine is the ONLY choice? I don't know that to be a fact. Do you?

No, I have no knowledge about that.
My guess is (and we hear that the cost and complexity of designing a brand new engine, has now become astronomic), having a huge debt and no profit, that it is sensible for resources to be allocated in other areas, with the hope of creating profits as soon as possible.

If everything goes well, then there will always be the opportunity to design a new Aston Martin engine.

Speedraser said:

Astons deserve an Aston engine. For me, it's utterly pointless otherwise, and I'd hate to see Aston decline into a company that uses others' engines.

The last all Aston Martin engine goes way back to the Newport Pagnell era. Others will know more about the history and dates.

The engines now in your own cars Speedraser, are not technically Aston Martin engines. I know that the current engines are solely used in Aston Martin cars, but as you must know, the present V8 derived from the Jaguar 4·2 V8, and the V12 was a Ford prototype engine.


PS. We have gone off-topic. Hope OP does not mind.

Enjoy your Presidential election day today, Speedraser.
Over here, we wonder whether those are the best two that you could find, out of 320,000,000 people.

You have probably heard the joke about, what is needed to find better candidates.
A blindfold, a telephone book and a pin. -

My apologies if that is not USA humour (humor).

[RobDown]

Speedraser said:

This. Jon, I continue to make this point because IMO it's absolutely critical. How can you say with certainty that someone else's engine is the ONLY choice? I don't know that to be a fact. Do you?

I'll see your argument, and raise you GBP500m of debt that needs to be serviced.

[12pack]

Jon39 said:

The last all Aston Martin engine goes way back to the Newport Pagnell era. Others will know more about the history and dates.

You have probably heard the joke about, what is needed to find better candidates.
A blindfold, a telephone book and a pin. -

I think the point is that, no matter the origin, Astons currently have engines that are unique to Astons. So the question is how bespoke the new engines will be, no matter their source.

On the second point, as a Yank living in Old Blighty, I don't believe your joke about the current US election originated with it ...

[spyker138]

12pack said:

I think the point is that, no matter the origin, Astons currently have engines that are unique to Astons. So the question is how bespoke the new engines will be, no matter their source.

On the second point, as a Yank living in Old Blighty, I don't believe your joke about the current US election originated with it ...

And as a Brit in the US I considered coming back to post-brexit UK, with Mrs May, Boris and the team, the tramp in oppo; and decided to take my chances here. Found a new supply of Marmite and it costs me $40 to fill a Bentley Arnage (with Bentley based on a Buick engine). I promise to come back to take the DB4 (with its Aston engine) for a trip to Spa or LM from time to time, if you promise no more speed bumps and cameras.

Just traded the Conti for a 1973 911 (Porsche engine with (shhh) VW origins).

Edited by spyker138 on Tuesday 8th November 17:48