An offer you can't refuse ?
Discussion
jonby said:
AMDBSVNick said:
jonby said:
F-Pace will do brilliantly. Bentayga is doing brilliantly.
Then clearly this is regional as in these parts where there is also a few quid knocking about (its not unique to Cheshire) only one person at school has swapped to Bentayga. He has anything that is brand new and turns up each morning in his Lycra shorts. Nuff said.TBF, I wasn't suggesting for one moment that Cheshire is the only place with money ! But it is certainly land of the SUV driving housewife (again not exclusively). I saw 5 Bentaygas on Saturday .....
Evoques, though of course a little cheaper, really are common as muck round here - it's astonishing just how many you see in my local village of Hale
I fully agree with the post that suggests AM may be a little late to a crowded market - it will be interesting to see how they differentiate but with a good enough design (which I'm sure will bear little relation to the show car), I think there is more than enough room, especially given how many people continue to move from saloon & exec cars to SUVs - there's a reason why BMW & Audi will soon each have both 5 or 6 SUVs (filling the gaps so they have Q1 right thru to Q8 and X1 right thru to X7) and AllRoad type cars and the likes of the 5 series GT, bonkers though it seems to me - the market continues to grow
And yes, I'm sure they are looking at a global market place for this but I suspect UK will still have decent sales of a car like this - think of say Stratstone Aston Wilmslow, with a prominent position on the high street, loads of fab sports cars, loads of wealthy people, but only 2 door cars to sell (OK, I know Rapide has 4 but it's a 2+2 DB9 LWB with rear doors IMO) - it will be such an easy sell if they can offer an SUV - just think of how many with a DB9/Vanquish/DB11 might consider one for their wife and/or as a more everyday car in an area like Wilmslow
I'll pop my head over the parapet and say I'd be a potential DBX buyer. I've got a new V12VSRM on the way and I intend to keep it for quite a while. I have a RRS 5.0 S/c for everyday use, but ideally I'd like a smaller, nimbler version of that, but with all the high end feel and finish (or better, indeed). The RRS is about as sporty as an oil tanker, in AM terms, but it is pretty quick, well made, and does the job. Porsche do good cars all across the upper end of the RR range, so I don't see a problem with AML coming out with a competitor at the top of the Cayenne/Bentaga market. If it's smaller, and not a barge, then I'm likely to be interested.
Awaits execution by forum...
Awaits execution by forum...
jonby said:
F-Pace will do brilliantly. Bentayga is doing brilliantly. It's actually easier to sell at 100-150k than 50k. People less worried about fuel efficiency and depreciation and more worried about prestige and looks. Loads of people near me with money, but who want a practical (read family) car, which rules out any current Aston but leaves them plenty of money to spend on an SUV. I don't see the need for a range personally. But if DBX works, they can launch one more either a little larger or a little smaller than DBX, in the same way Porsche brought Macan out and Bentley are going to do a mini Bentayga. But I can't imagine a smaller DBX will be anywhere close to 50k - I'm assuming DBX will be north of 100k start price
I broadly agree with you, but...Porsche/Bentley are a different kettle of fish owing to the availability of platforms one, two or even 3 down/up from where their original foray was. Each or little more than body panels on more humdrum badged cars that sell in their 100s of 1000s.
And Lagonda should have been used. Brand recognition would take a little longer, but with clever marketing not too much. Lexus do OK for example. It would also have afforded some protection to the Aston Martin brand. AML evidently don't care hugely on that front though. As the 60-odd Cygnets or however many there were, prove.
Murph7355 said:
jonby said:
F-Pace will do brilliantly. Bentayga is doing brilliantly. It's actually easier to sell at 100-150k than 50k. People less worried about fuel efficiency and depreciation and more worried about prestige and looks. Loads of people near me with money, but who want a practical (read family) car, which rules out any current Aston but leaves them plenty of money to spend on an SUV. I don't see the need for a range personally. But if DBX works, they can launch one more either a little larger or a little smaller than DBX, in the same way Porsche brought Macan out and Bentley are going to do a mini Bentayga. But I can't imagine a smaller DBX will be anywhere close to 50k - I'm assuming DBX will be north of 100k start price
I broadly agree with you, but...Porsche/Bentley are a different kettle of fish owing to the availability of platforms one, two or even 3 down/up from where their original foray was. Each or little more than body panels on more humdrum badged cars that sell in their 100s of 1000s.
And Lagonda should have been used. Brand recognition would take a little longer, but with clever marketing not too much. Lexus do OK for example. It would also have afforded some protection to the Aston Martin brand. AML evidently don't care hugely on that front though. As the 60-odd Cygnets or however many there were, prove.
As for brand, if it's done right, it won't damage the brand. If it's not done right, it doesn't matter what brand name is on it, because the company will be in trouble again. But if it is done right, why create a need to spend any money whatsoever out of a limited budget, on educating people what Lagonda is ? The Lexus project probably spent more money on marketing than Aston do on a factory !
Incidentally Nick, had a quick look at some online articles to confirm my (poor) memory - Bentley have capacity to build 3,600 Bentaygas p.a. and have 10,000 orders...............
Edited by jonby on Monday 5th December 14:06
jonby said:
Incidentally Nick, had a quick look at some online articles to confirm my (poor) memory - Bentley have capacity to build 3,600 Bentaygas p.a. and have 10,000 orders...............
Can you please look up Lycra Shorts sales too?Perhaps avinalarf could provide feedback on this point
I think the production target for DBX which AML have stated is 7,000.
Certainly a tiny number compared to the Porsche figures, mention above by Rob.
Therefore presumably, it is a sales figure that can be achieved.
The whole SUV thing is a contradiction to me.
About ten years ago there was great emphasis about too much pollution, low road tax if we are 'good', smaller cars are better for the planet, and so it went on.
All that seems to have quietly changed. Huge vehicles are now commonplace and car park spaces are hardly big enough anymore. Looking at one of the motoring magazines today, I noticed almost a full column of SUV models, that are expected to be introduced in the next few years. Rolls Royce, Lamborghini, Maserati, Bentley, Aston Martin, and many more. On that list I even spotted a VW Golf SUV (I am picturing a phone box shape), and it looks as though BMW even want to offer graded sized SUVs, rather like those Russian dolls that fit inside each other. BMW X1, X2, X3, X4 ,X5, X6, and X7. Will they be able to sell the full set to a few Cheshire families, Jonby?
It has always been the case that older car buyers tend to want smallish cars. Does that mean minimal demand for these huge vehicles, when they become say five or six years old?
AMDBSVNick said:
jonby said:
Incidentally Nick, had a quick look at some online articles to confirm my (poor) memory - Bentley have capacity to build 3,600 Bentaygas p.a. and have 10,000 orders...............
Can you please look up Lycra Shorts sales too?Perhaps avinalarf could provide feedback on this point
Went in to my local Deli on sunday morning and saw a large group of middle aged men, some of whom I knew, all still in lycra gear from their morning bike ride - they were all stuffing their face with cream cakes......
I am a Man City supporter (not surprisingly quite a few players have Bentaygas already) and a little like Aston, City have a tendency to f*** up even when everything is going for them, but on the face of it, SUVs are just a licence for an upmarket car manufacturer to make money. Not that it would surprise me if Aston are the only ones not to make a decent fist of it.
It's also worth remembering that those who have never looked at an Aston sports car, or haven't looked at one since DB7 days or before, may well end up buying Aston sports cars on the back of first entering a dealership for the new SUV. I am sure that plenty of people who have never bought a Porsche of any description until Cayenne may be sufficiently impressed with build quality, performance, feel good factor and dealership experience that they end up buying a Porsche sports car as well
AMDBSVNick said:
Can you please look up Lycra Shorts sales too?
Perhaps avinalarf could provide feedback on this point
Lycra shorts........Perhaps avinalarf could provide feedback on this point
I was resisting the temptation on commenting on lycra shorts but Nick's post has proven irresistible.
I don't sell or wear Lycra shorts so we will have to rely on Tony Hall for his opinion as he is an ardent proponent for
such attire,the tighter the better he's quoted as saying.
jonby said:
... a large group of middle aged men, some of whom I knew, all still in lycra gear from their morning bike ride - they were all stuffing their face with cream cakes......
jonby said:
I am a Man City supporter (not surprisingly quite a few players have Bentaygas already) and a little like Aston, City have a tendency to f*** up even when everything is going for them, but on the face of it, SUVs are just a licence for an upmarket car manufacturer to make money ...
I am getting worried now, picturing chromed or matt black Aston Martin bling DBXs.The Aston Martin understated elegance image will soon be gone.
There have been several mentions of a stock market float for AML (as per Ferrari recently), after the 'Second Century Plan' has worked.
AP also keeps referring to a high company valuation, nearer to the premium goods companies rather than motor manufacturers. Investors are going to need some convincing on that one, and they would also expect a high profit margin, together with many years history of steady profits growth.
However such comments probably do reveal, only a short or medium-term interest by the current owners.
Edited by Jon39 on Monday 5th December 14:58
There are other reasons to own an SUV than off-roading and image. Here in the U.S. I drive a Mini Countryman All4 because I may need to deal with snow during five months each year. My wife used to drive a minivan because she could be hauling children to sports or other activities along with two dogs and two weeks' supply of groceries. But when she had to use the minivan in the snow or in other bad weather I became nervous at times.
Also, many drivers have to deal with long distances on high-speed roads. While I agree that SUVs are part of the problem (large, heavy vehicles often driven beyond the capability of the driver), I'd rather my daughter be wrapped in one than in a lightweight econobox.
SUVs have become successful because they're the Swiss Army knife of transportation, and there's nothing wrong with offering an extra-sharp Swiss Army knife with a pearl handle and custom engraving: AM's interpretation.
Aston Martins evolved beyond specialist hill climbers to become exclusive and fast grand tourers, yet I haven't noticed much negative uproar about developing the RB-001. I'd be willing to bet that an AM SUV/crossover will be much closer to an exclusive and fast grand tourer that the RB-001 is.
Also, many drivers have to deal with long distances on high-speed roads. While I agree that SUVs are part of the problem (large, heavy vehicles often driven beyond the capability of the driver), I'd rather my daughter be wrapped in one than in a lightweight econobox.
SUVs have become successful because they're the Swiss Army knife of transportation, and there's nothing wrong with offering an extra-sharp Swiss Army knife with a pearl handle and custom engraving: AM's interpretation.
Aston Martins evolved beyond specialist hill climbers to become exclusive and fast grand tourers, yet I haven't noticed much negative uproar about developing the RB-001. I'd be willing to bet that an AM SUV/crossover will be much closer to an exclusive and fast grand tourer that the RB-001 is.
You need to drive an SUV in order to negotiate speed bumps efficiently. I find it super frustrating to drive a sportscar in London with all those dismal roads around.
I fear that Aston will be too late to the SUV party when they finally are ready. The bubble will have burst. Oilprices will be record high and inner cities will be closed to polluting cars.
I fear that Aston will be too late to the SUV party when they finally are ready. The bubble will have burst. Oilprices will be record high and inner cities will be closed to polluting cars.
Zuman said:
... yet I haven't noticed much negative uproar about developing the RB-001. I'd be willing to bet that an AM SUV/crossover will be much closer to an exclusive and fast grand tourer that the RB-001 is.
True, but the association with motor racing has always been important for AML, and most models have a racing connection. DB9, Vantage and even the Rapide have been the basis for racing cars. The RB-AM001 simply shouts racing, so why would there be negative comment?The SUV will never have the excitement of racing, it's only job is to make money.
Edited by Jon39 on Monday 5th December 17:13
Jon39 said:
Zuman said:
... yet I haven't noticed much negative uproar about developing the RB-001. I'd be willing to bet that an AM SUV/crossover will be much closer to an exclusive and fast grand tourer that the RB-001 is.
True, but the association with motor racing has always been important for AML, and most models have a racing connection. DB9, Vantage and even the Rapide have been the basis for racing cars. The RB-AM001 simply shouts racing, so why would there be negative comment?The SUV will never have the excitement of racing, it's only job is to make money.
Edited by Jon39 on Monday 5th December 17:13
Would I buy a DBX? Not based on what I've seen so far; it's not going to be as practical as my Disco (I need a 7 seater) nor as beautiful/sporting as my Rapide. So it kind of falls between two stools. But I can understand why people might swap a RRS (not actually that practical) for one
jonby said:
I guess the question is whether they get their act together on the hybrid/electric side as per the show car at Geneva
Agree. The next 5 years will be decesive for the automotive industry as a whole. The big manufacturers who until now have held back on the electric drivetrain development because they didn't think that it would be the answer are now waking up to the challenge put down by Tesla. Aston Martin has zero chance in this new world as only the big manufacturers or the ones with access to finance have a chance to survive this transition. Andrea Bonomi with his InvestIndustrial Group will be very lucky if they see any return at all on their investment. RobDown said:
The problem with this thread is that its so UK-centric.
Lets look at Porsche - 2/3rds of its 2015 sales were its SUVs - Macans (80k) and Cayennes (72k). And its single largest market? China followed distantly by the US. The UK is a passing afterthought
Why has Bentley developed an SUV? Its not because they see great sales potential in the UK (I'm sure if you told them they weren't allowed to sell it in the UK for some regulatory reason the response would be the equivalent of "we're not bothered"). They've developed it because the Chinese buyers of their saloon cars all tend to have a Cayenne too.
It's not a crowded market for these high end cars. The Chinese buy the Cayenne because its good and they recognise the brand. Bentley must be rubbing their hands. AML's problem is that brand recognition in China is relatively poor but good in the US. Lagonda would be non-existent in both countries (lets be honest its pretty non-existent in the UK!).
So will be very interesting to see where AML sells the DBX. But I'm guessing their two target markets are China first and the US second. The UK, will most likely end up being a very small share of sales
Exactly what the person above said...Lets look at Porsche - 2/3rds of its 2015 sales were its SUVs - Macans (80k) and Cayennes (72k). And its single largest market? China followed distantly by the US. The UK is a passing afterthought
Why has Bentley developed an SUV? Its not because they see great sales potential in the UK (I'm sure if you told them they weren't allowed to sell it in the UK for some regulatory reason the response would be the equivalent of "we're not bothered"). They've developed it because the Chinese buyers of their saloon cars all tend to have a Cayenne too.
It's not a crowded market for these high end cars. The Chinese buy the Cayenne because its good and they recognise the brand. Bentley must be rubbing their hands. AML's problem is that brand recognition in China is relatively poor but good in the US. Lagonda would be non-existent in both countries (lets be honest its pretty non-existent in the UK!).
So will be very interesting to see where AML sells the DBX. But I'm guessing their two target markets are China first and the US second. The UK, will most likely end up being a very small share of sales
Charlotte may be lovely, but it'll be the Chinese who make or break DBX.
Just like the way they have a long wheelbase BMW 3 series and they didn't love the Rapids. Hopefully Dr Palmer will listen to the folks on staff who understand China...
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