V12V (six speed manual) vs V12VS (seven speed manual)

[JohnG1]

Had a back-to-back drive in a V12V and then a V12VS.

V12V - carbon-fibre seats, B&O, six speed manual, mechanically standard
V12VS - standard seats, premium stereo, seven speed manual, adaptive suspension, vanquish steering rack, dealer stock car

A few differences I spotted (beyond the obvious) the V12VS does not have the leather pull in the boot to assist with closure. And the carpet does not look as good.

V12VS - has a lot of changes in feel and mechanically. The steering is radically different, the V12V allows you to feel everything, the V12VS insulates you from the road (drove the exact same road to give fair comparison).

V12VS gearbox is a bit tricky, first time I drove a dogleg box but I imagine I would get the swing of it eventually. Did make the 1st to 4th shift a few times... oops!

AMShift is cute and can be switched off (didn't do a WOT upshift, no chance)
Suspension and seat combination insulate you from the road, whereas V12V carbon-fibre seat allows you to feel everything.

Satnav is better. Torque meter is gimmicky but I like it. Haptic feedback buttons, waste of money. Vanquish dash is alright but doesn't really change anything - no CD player is one thing.

Exhaust noise is better, seems quieter at low revs and louder at high revs.

I'd love to test drive an S with carbon-fibre seats and B&O back to back with an original V12V. See if you get back the rawness of road feel from the seat, even if not from the steering rack.

I think the S is a very different beast to the V12V original. Although the ingredients are very similar the outcome is radically different.

The V12V is not a car I would let someone else drive. The V12VS would be OK for someone not used to high powered rwd sportscars.

[AMArchie]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
When the V12VS manual first was released, I had several approaches from a AM main dealer to try to tempt me into one for a drive. In the end, I declined, as I struggled to justify to myself the financial hit I would take (~£70k?) in swapping my 2010 V12V for the new model - especially when I realised what I really appreciate is the original model's simplicity of purpose., and purity of execution by Aston when they originally conceived the V12V.

[CSK1]

I wouldn't let someone else drive my V12VSR either.
The S is not an easy drive although you are able to actually use the power with the S.
And my guess is you haven't tried the Sport and Track modes settings of the suspension which alter the steering feel as well.
You should take another test drive with the S and play with the different settings. If you are able to get a drive with one equipped with the lightweight carbon bucket seats all the better!

[Ex Boy Racer]

Funny comparison. My read of it is something like 'the old one's worse, so it's better'. Kind of.

To me, the S is a much more sophisticated, nimble, controlled drive that's probably about 10% faster on British roads. Certainly as good as a 458 Ferrari (the car i had when I tested it years ago) but wit the original version I could not live with the Sportshift.

The S manual is better to drive in every way. The cheapened elements are annoying though. Hadn't noticed the leather boot pull has gone - another thing that made my old V12 Vantage a bit special

[12pack]

OP, thanks for posting. Indeed for some of the reasons quoted above I keep being tempted to go for the one of the existing S manuals. But am always a bit disappointed by the little things - like the hatch strap - compared to my perfectly spec'd carbon black V12V. In the end both cars are traction-limited. Personally the incremental improvement in traction (much less than the differences tires would make, I feel), power in the 3-4K range, lighter controls are difficult to justify as the reason for spending the cash, especially if I have to accept some cheaper "little things".

[Flugplatz]

Is there any difference in the steering rack from V12V to "S" ?
Ive not heard that before. Vanquish steering rack? not heard that either.

Sounds like you need to try one with the lightweight seats and press a few buttons.

The v12v standard suspension is similar in feel to the "s" with sport selected.
Obviously with the "s" you can choose to go softer for bumpy roads or harder again for track that you cant on the V12V.

[hornbaek]

This is exactly the issue i have been banging on about. The V12VS manual mainly appeals to existing V12V owners (rather than winning over Ferrari or Porsche owners) and it its execution it fails to completely convince you that the change is worth it, due to the fact that the price gap is too high for very little change. Other manufacturers make "late in the model cycle" cars a bit more special either by adding some extras at no extra cost or by making some tweaks which make the car look more special. Porsche GTS is a good example. Aston on the other hand start charging for carbon fibre bonnet louvres etc and take away some of the nice features such as the leather strap that set off the car from its competitors at its original launch in 2009. It is always easier to get existing customer to buy your cars rather than winning over new customers in competition with other marques but Aston fails miserably for making this choice a "no brainer". It is simply poor commercial judgement.

[RobDown]

I hear you, but the factory seems to be running at full capacity with a nice order book of db11s and a second factory being built in Wales. Why would they need to offer a bargain basement run out? It would make little commercial sense

[Gettoff]

I think as has been mentioned already, the OP should try a car with the lightweights, just to give it a fair crack of the whip. If you can actually get on with the gearbox then it could be worth the second try. The new car is better in many ways but frustrating in others, if you can get round them, good luck to you.

What hornbaek says is true though, I think predominantly the only people getting the new car are old V12V owners upgrading, and not defectors from other brands. Obviously I have no evidence to back this up but how many have they, or are likely to sell? Maybe 30 odd in the UK? I'm sure the vast majority of owners of the old car had the call or email from their dealer inviting them to test drive, plus owners of other models. Not a great take-up given that most are already sold on the brand.

This could be the previously mentioned penny-pinching on options, although to be fair on another thread, I think Adam mentioned that the price hadn't gone up in real terms compared to 2009. That said, as a run-out model it's generally the norm to give extra kit on a car rather than less, maybe the AM parts bins are finally running empty .

The other reason perhaps, is the hamfisted evolution of the V12V after 2013. If AM had just done the S with the option of a manual (6speed) they'd have sold more cars I expect. I for one would have already upgraded, probably not a new one but still more turnover for the dealers. Instead they release the V12VSM, I assume to appease owners craving the "last NA V12 manual Vantage", which is fine. But by leaving a 3 year gap between manuals, the price difference has increased naturally to a point where the cost to change is hard to justify for many, which in turn is increased again by the number of original cars coming on to market as a result of those few who are trading up.

It just seems badly thought through, and frustrating for the likes of me as I can't see anywhere to go in the future. I REALLY hope the new Vantage is a home run visually and dynamically. It's their bread and butter model and if it receives a lukewarm reception or worse, new factories building SUV's or whatever, will be a moot point.

[quench]

Completely agree with the above. I upgraded to an S from a V12V. That was expensive enough, thank you. My dealer has tried to tempt me with a manual S, but I am not made of money! And that is exactly the problem as pointed out above, for existing customers especially in the Vantage range: we are not all sheiks and billionaires. For me the advantages of an automated manual outweigh my desire for a difficult to master, 7 speed dogleg gearbox, and I can already scratch that manual itch with my Exige, thanks. As for new/conquest customers, the manual S may get good press, but it's too little too late, and if you believe the numbers, no one buys manuals any more, even though the press tells them they should.

Flugplatz, the S has a quicker steering rack with variable assist (depending on whether the sport button is pressed); even in sport or trac dsc modes, the assist is more than on the original V12V. If I have to be honest, this is one aspect of my old V12V that I miss - the heavier steering had a 'manlier' feel that suited the car more IMO. Also, the suspension IMO is still softer than the old V12V, even in sport mode, although I wonder if that may be the result of different spring rates and not just shock absorbers/dampers. That makes the car a lot more liveable (and faster) on bumpy roads, which are a fact of life around here.

[C997]

Ex Boy Racer said:

The S manual is better to drive in every way.

Couldn't have put it any better.

When I read this thread I found myself thinking that what some folks think are the positives with the old car were the negatives for me (steering weight, gearbox, suspension, etc) and what some thought are negatives with the S manual are actually the reason I am changing. When I had my original carbon black I test drove an S with sportshift and very nearly jumped as I felt it was such an improvement over the manual. I'm glad I didn't now and will end up with, what I feel, is the best of both worlds. How Aston got to this point with evolution of the model is insignificant in my book, I'm just glad to see the company being successful (relatively!).

I guess this just shows how different our perceptions and feelings are of what details constitute a great car, cos let's face it, in any form it's a great car!

[Ex Boy Racer]

It's probably worth mentioning that the suspension on the S doesn't just vary depending on the setting you choose. It changes rate as you drive, getting firmer as the car hits higher G forces. So the way it works helps the car to go faster and gives the much sharper handling that is quite easy to spot during a test drive.
That's the big difference for me.
In fairness, Bamford Rose can retrofit this system to an original V12 as it's bought-in parts so not exactly rocket science but it does make a significant difference to the car

[Bincenzo]

Gettoff said:

I think as has been mentioned already, the OP should try a car with the lightweights, just to give it a fair crack of the whip. If you can actually get on with the gearbox then it could be worth the second try. The new car is better in many ways but frustrating in others, if you can get round them, good luck to you.

What hornbaek says is true though, I think predominantly the only people getting the new car are old V12V owners upgrading, and not defectors from other brands. Obviously I have no evidence to back this up but how many have they, or are likely to sell? Maybe 30 odd in the UK? I'm sure the vast majority of owners of the old car had the call or email from their dealer inviting them to test drive, plus owners of other models. Not a great take-up given that most are already sold on the brand.

This could be the previously mentioned penny-pinching on options, although to be fair on another thread, I think Adam mentioned that the price hadn't gone up in real terms compared to 2009. That said, as a run-out model it's generally the norm to give extra kit on a car rather than less, maybe the AM parts bins are finally running empty .

The other reason perhaps, is the hamfisted evolution of the V12V after 2013. If AM had just done the S with the option of a manual (6speed) they'd have sold more cars I expect. I for one would have already upgraded, probably not a new one but still more turnover for the dealers. Instead they release the V12VSM, I assume to appease owners craving the "last NA V12 manual Vantage", which is fine. But by leaving a 3 year gap between manuals, the price difference has increased naturally to a point where the cost to change is hard to justify for many, which in turn is increased again by the number of original cars coming on to market as a result of those few who are trading up.

It just seems badly thought through, and frustrating for the likes of me as I can't see anywhere to go in the future. I REALLY hope the new Vantage is a home run visually and dynamically. It's their bread and butter model and if it receives a lukewarm reception or worse, new factories building SUV's or whatever, will be a moot point.

A well considered post youth, nicely put.

[jonby]

Bincenzo said:

Gettoff said:

I think as has been mentioned already, the OP should try a car with the lightweights, just to give it a fair crack of the whip. If you can actually get on with the gearbox then it could be worth the second try. The new car is better in many ways but frustrating in others, if you can get round them, good luck to you.

What hornbaek says is true though, I think predominantly the only people getting the new car are old V12V owners upgrading, and not defectors from other brands. Obviously I have no evidence to back this up but how many have they, or are likely to sell? Maybe 30 odd in the UK? I'm sure the vast majority of owners of the old car had the call or email from their dealer inviting them to test drive, plus owners of other models. Not a great take-up given that most are already sold on the brand.

This could be the previously mentioned penny-pinching on options, although to be fair on another thread, I think Adam mentioned that the price hadn't gone up in real terms compared to 2009. That said, as a run-out model it's generally the norm to give extra kit on a car rather than less, maybe the AM parts bins are finally running empty .

The other reason perhaps, is the hamfisted evolution of the V12V after 2013. If AM had just done the S with the option of a manual (6speed) they'd have sold more cars I expect. I for one would have already upgraded, probably not a new one but still more turnover for the dealers. Instead they release the V12VSM, I assume to appease owners craving the "last NA V12 manual Vantage", which is fine. But by leaving a 3 year gap between manuals, the price difference has increased naturally to a point where the cost to change is hard to justify for many, which in turn is increased again by the number of original cars coming on to market as a result of those few who are trading up.

It just seems badly thought through, and frustrating for the likes of me as I can't see anywhere to go in the future. I REALLY hope the new Vantage is a home run visually and dynamically. It's their bread and butter model and if it receives a lukewarm reception or worse, new factories building SUV's or whatever, will be a moot point.

A well considered post youth, nicely put.

It is, although there has definitely been a re-think by manufacturers on the whole manual thing by several manufacturers. It was very much the manufacturers themselves that wanted to kill manual, both because it suited them and because they believed demand had dropped hugely

A number of factors led Aston to re-think, including the popularity of 911R & the bringing back of manual for the forthcoming gen 2 991 GT3 plus also, the residuals for DBS manual (compared to auto) and the take up of manual in GT8. Also the number of people who wouldn't go from V12V to V12VS because of the lack of manual

But the fact is, Vantage in it's current guise is at least 2-3 years past the point of it's originally planned replacement so everything they have done regarding strategy of the models in the last couple of years has been a botch job, V12VS included

At least they are now covering all the bases (V12VS in both forms)

Unlike DB11, where I see more of a case to consider a used DB9/Vanquish or a new Vanquish/S as a real competitor, I think when new Vantage comes, it will be a far more clear cut changing of the guard - there will be night & day between the two models in every respect. One has to assume that new Vantage will be offered with 2 or 3 pedals right from the start and will stay that way (other than perhaps the odd special model with only one gearbox option) - the only question really would appear to be what type of 2 pedal gearbox will be utilized. Sports shift is almost certainly out of the question and whereas a year or two ago I might have guessed at DSG being the 2 pedal offering in Vantage, I am now more inclined to think it will be conventional auto. That's partly because a number of manufacturers are making great sports cars with full auto boxes and partly because I don't see how it makes sense for a company of Aston's size to offer different 2 pedal boxes in different cars

[Ex Boy Racer]

jonby said:

It is, although there has definitely been a re-think by manufacturers on the whole manual thing by several manufacturers. It was very much the manufacturers themselves that wanted to kill manual, both because it suited them and because they believed demand had dropped hugely

A number of factors led Aston to re-think, including the popularity of 911R & the bringing back of manual for the forthcoming gen 2 991 GT3 plus also, the residuals for DBS manual (compared to auto) and the take up of manual in GT8. Also the number of people who wouldn't go from V12V to V12VS because of the lack of manual

But the fact is, Vantage in it's current guise is at least 2-3 years past the point of it's originally planned replacement so everything they have done regarding strategy of the models in the last couple of years has been a botch job, V12VS included

At least they are now covering all the bases (V12VS in both forms)

Unlike DB11, where I see more of a case to consider a used DB9/Vanquish or a new Vanquish/S as a real competitor, I think when new Vantage comes, it will be a far more clear cut changing of the guard - there will be night & day between the two models in every respect. One has to assume that new Vantage will be offered with 2 or 3 pedals right from the start and will stay that way (other than perhaps the odd special model with only one gearbox option) - the only question really would appear to be what type of 2 pedal gearbox will be utilized. Sports shift is almost certainly out of the question and whereas a year or two ago I might have guessed at DSG being the 2 pedal offering in Vantage, I am now more inclined to think it will be conventional auto. That's partly because a number of manufacturers are making great sports cars with full auto boxes and partly because I don't see how it makes sense for a company of Aston's size to offer different 2 pedal boxes in different cars

Surely it will be whatever Mercedes uses?

[Jon39]

JohnG1 said:

A few differences I spotted (beyond the obvious) the V12VS does not have the leather pull in the boot to assist with closure.

Oh dear. Is this yet another new 'cost option item', which used to be a normal part of the car?

Perhaps short people can keep a stool in the boot, to reach the tailgate. A conundrum though. They would have to put the stool back in the boot with one hand, whilst holding the tailgate to stop it going out of reach again.

[jonby]

Ex Boy Racer said:

Surely it will be whatever Mercedes uses?

Not so sure - the manual version won't be so it doesn't necessarily follow suit that the 2 pedal version will be

Also, I think I'm correct in saying that Mercedes offer both a DSG and a convention auto with that V8 twin turbo 4.0 engine, depending upon the model - I think that whilst the AMG GT uses a DSG box, C63S uses a conventional auto ? Please correct me if I'm wrong - I'm not 100% sure on that one

Finally, DB11 uses an auto with the twin turbo. You would imagine that when DB11 offers the AMG engine (which is an open secret), it will use the same gearbox, for packaging reasons - you assume they ahven't engineered DB11 to take either box although of course it's possible. Assuming that's all true, once Aston have engineered the AMG to use an auto in DB11, there is no reason they couldn't also use it with that engine in replacement Vantage

I'm not saying there won't be DSG, but I am suggesting there are reasons why they could use either. The main reason for using DSG in replacement Vantage is I suspect, perception (new Vantage will be more 'extreme' as a sports car). But it hasn't seemed to be a problem to F type sales (which has conventional auto)

[TKP]

jonby said:

Also, I think I'm correct in saying that Mercedes offer both a DSG and a convention auto with that V8 twin turbo 4.0 engine, depending upon the model - I think that whilst the AMG GT uses a DSG box, C63S uses a conventional auto ? Please correct me if I'm wrong - I'm not 100% sure on that one

You are correct but it would be a pity if AML does not get that DCT (how they call it at Merc). I'm not a fan of DSGs but that's for sur ethe best I've ever driven, it's shifting so unreal quick...

And it's three gearboxes: 7 speed DTC, 7 speed MCT and 9 speed MCT (9 speed = E63 AMG, but that's an AWD)

Edited by TKP on Monday 16th January 12:45

[JohnG1]

Flugplatz said:

Is there any difference in the steering rack from V12V to "S" ?
Ive not heard that before. Vanquish steering rack? not heard that either.

Sounds like you need to try one with the lightweight seats and press a few buttons.

The v12v standard suspension is similar in feel to the "s" with sport selected.
Obviously with the "s" you can choose to go softer for bumpy roads or harder again for track that you cant on the V12V.

http://www.evo.co.uk/aston-martin/v12-vantage/7321/aston-martin-v12-vantage-s-review-best-of-2013

"We are big fans of the original, but the S is much more nailed down in the corners and revs more freely whilst still retaining that big-hearted character of the earlier car. The ZF Servotronic steering has a quicker rack (15:1 down from 17:1) but also has variable assistance. Thankfully you don’t notice the variable assistance and there’s always a pleasing weight to it."

[JohnG1]

AMArchie said:

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
When the V12VS manual first was released, I had several approaches from a AM main dealer to try to tempt me into one for a drive. In the end, I declined, as I struggled to justify to myself the financial hit I would take (~£70k?) in swapping my 2010 V12V for the new model - especially when I realised what I really appreciate is the original model's simplicity of purpose., and purity of execution by Aston when they originally conceived the V12V.

This is what I am considering. I liked the suspension in soft mode being a lot more compliant on crappy roads. But that could be a retrofit to an existing V12V by Bamford Rose. Power increase, well, rip out the secondary cats and you are pretty much inline with V12VS to all intents and purposes.

So maybe it's £10k to Bamford Rose to get the performance or £50k-£60k to AML to get the 7 speed box. Sure, there is more to it than that. As I wrote AMShift is cute. But does an extra gear, better sat-nav and a throttle blipper/torque interruptor add up to being worth the cost of change...