V12V (six speed manual) vs V12VS (seven speed manual)
Discussion
jonby said:
JohnG1 said:
I suspect that reason will mean no manual gearbox.
There has to be a manual version. They have publicly made clear manual will always be an option on at least one model and that they see a chance to offer a point of differentiation now that most mainstream high end sports car manufacturers, with the exception of Porsche, have dropped manuals. I am sure this is not just about the number of manual cars they will sell but also, the arguable benefits to perception of the brand as more of an enthusiast's choice because they still offer manual. By association effectively.
It also fits in with AP's comments of new vantage being 'a weekend warrior'. This car simply has to have a manual option and I can't believe it won't.
I wonder, what does a petrolhead in Shanghai, Shenzhen or anywhere in China think of this manual versus automatic versus dual-clutch blah blah blah? Since he/she is the target market, not us Anglosphere (and the odd French, Dutch and German) folks...
JohnG1 said:
If the number of manual box cars sold is small relative to entire production then why not put the manual box on the top of the range car where the profit margin is highest?
That's what I'm saying: manual will end up as a GBP 5k option 
I agree that the whole battle about BHP and 0-60 figures is totally pointless (vmax has at least in Germany a real-life purpose); especially as all the upcoming electric and hybrid cars with their AWD will outperform on these marketing figures anyway every RWD sportscar, even if turbocharged. So better quit this kind of game before you lose it. And maybe the "manual experience" topic is a good one to differentiate but I'm not sure if the major markets outside Europe see it that way...
From the horse's mouth
http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/future-cars/n...
If you're not happy with a quote in an independent magazine, here's one from Aston's own website
https://www.astonmartin.com/en/live/news/2016/04/0...
I've copied & pasted the most relevant paragraph
Aston Martin CEO Dr Andy Palmer said: "Broadening the scope of the V12 Vantage S with a manual transmission option is an indication of our desire to offer the keenest drivers a more analogue and immersive machine to enjoy. I'd like to take this opportunity to reiterate that the manual gearbox remains an integral part of our product plans and will do for many years to come."
The point about electric cars is a good one but if you aren't chasing lap times or 0-60, then surely you are chasing enjoyment, novelty, feel, fun, etc - that's where manual comes in
The sector where electric surely makes the most sense is SUVs - they can take the weight of the batteries, they are already geared (no pun intended) to 4WD, they aren't really driven by & large for enjoyment, etc. To be fair to Aston, DBX was launched with a stated intention of being electric in at least one offering. If in years to come even the likes of Ferrari & Mclaren with 7,8 or more hundred horsepower in their 'standard' models can't compete with electric for 0-60 or lap times, then offering manual really does give a different reason to buy the weekend warrior that AP describes new Vantage as
I take the point about China, but does China buy many 2 seat 2 door coupes of any description ? That's surely where Lagonda, DBX, etc comes in ?
Incidentally whilst talking about global markets, I am told that Stratstone Wilmslow sold more cars than any other Aston dealership in the world last year
http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/future-cars/n...
If you're not happy with a quote in an independent magazine, here's one from Aston's own website
https://www.astonmartin.com/en/live/news/2016/04/0...
I've copied & pasted the most relevant paragraph
Aston Martin CEO Dr Andy Palmer said: "Broadening the scope of the V12 Vantage S with a manual transmission option is an indication of our desire to offer the keenest drivers a more analogue and immersive machine to enjoy. I'd like to take this opportunity to reiterate that the manual gearbox remains an integral part of our product plans and will do for many years to come."
The point about electric cars is a good one but if you aren't chasing lap times or 0-60, then surely you are chasing enjoyment, novelty, feel, fun, etc - that's where manual comes in
The sector where electric surely makes the most sense is SUVs - they can take the weight of the batteries, they are already geared (no pun intended) to 4WD, they aren't really driven by & large for enjoyment, etc. To be fair to Aston, DBX was launched with a stated intention of being electric in at least one offering. If in years to come even the likes of Ferrari & Mclaren with 7,8 or more hundred horsepower in their 'standard' models can't compete with electric for 0-60 or lap times, then offering manual really does give a different reason to buy the weekend warrior that AP describes new Vantage as
I take the point about China, but does China buy many 2 seat 2 door coupes of any description ? That's surely where Lagonda, DBX, etc comes in ?
Incidentally whilst talking about global markets, I am told that Stratstone Wilmslow sold more cars than any other Aston dealership in the world last year
JohnG1 said:
http://www.evo.co.uk/aston-martin/v12-vantage/7321...
"We are big fans of the original, but the S is much more nailed down in the corners and revs more freely whilst still retaining that big-hearted character of the earlier car. The ZF Servotronic steering has a quicker rack (15:1 down from 17:1) but also has variable assistance. Thankfully you don’t notice the variable assistance and there’s always a pleasing weight to it."
"We are big fans of the original, but the S is much more nailed down in the corners and revs more freely whilst still retaining that big-hearted character of the earlier car. The ZF Servotronic steering has a quicker rack (15:1 down from 17:1) but also has variable assistance. Thankfully you don’t notice the variable assistance and there’s always a pleasing weight to it."
quench said:
Flugplatz, the S has a quicker steering rack with variable assist (depending on whether the sport button is pressed); even in sport or trac dsc modes, the assist is more than on the original V12V. If I have to be honest, this is one aspect of my old V12V that I miss - the heavier steering had a 'manlier' feel that suited the car more IMO. Also, the suspension IMO is still softer than the old V12V, even in sport mode, although I wonder if that may be the result of different spring rates and not just shock absorbers/dampers. That makes the car a lot more liveable (and faster) on bumpy roads, which are a fact of life around here.
Thank you Gentlemen 
I recently viewed a You Tube video by AM Works talking about a Manual conversion to the original Vanquish.
Given that V12S Sportshift III is the same 7 speed Graziano gearbox as the recently introduced V12S manual.
Would it not be an idea to buy a cheaper V12S Sportshift and convert it to a manual 7 speed.
Searching on the AM pre-owned section, only 6 x manual V12S (all coupes) for sale at circa £130K.
Searching again, but now V12S Sportshift shows Coupes at under £100K and Roadsters from £115K (with lots of choice of colours & spec)
I would imagine the AM Works conversion is not exactly cheap, but it would open up the choice for V12S buyers
Given that V12S Sportshift III is the same 7 speed Graziano gearbox as the recently introduced V12S manual.
Would it not be an idea to buy a cheaper V12S Sportshift and convert it to a manual 7 speed.
Searching on the AM pre-owned section, only 6 x manual V12S (all coupes) for sale at circa £130K.
Searching again, but now V12S Sportshift shows Coupes at under £100K and Roadsters from £115K (with lots of choice of colours & spec)
I would imagine the AM Works conversion is not exactly cheap, but it would open up the choice for V12S buyers
Manwhoneverwas said:
I recently viewed a You Tube video by AM Works talking about a Manual conversion to the original Vanquish.
Given that V12S Sportshift III is the same 7 speed Graziano gearbox as the recently introduced V12S manual.
Would it not be an idea to buy a cheaper V12S Sportshift and convert it to a manual 7 speed.
Searching on the AM pre-owned section, only 6 x manual V12S (all coupes) for sale at circa £130K.
Searching again, but now V12S Sportshift shows Coupes at under £100K and Roadsters from £115K (with lots of choice of colours & spec)
I would imagine the AM Works conversion is not exactly cheap, but it would open up the choice for V12S buyers
conversion cost on vanquish was c £15k, think I recall seeing it's more like £20k nowGiven that V12S Sportshift III is the same 7 speed Graziano gearbox as the recently introduced V12S manual.
Would it not be an idea to buy a cheaper V12S Sportshift and convert it to a manual 7 speed.
Searching on the AM pre-owned section, only 6 x manual V12S (all coupes) for sale at circa £130K.
Searching again, but now V12S Sportshift shows Coupes at under £100K and Roadsters from £115K (with lots of choice of colours & spec)
I would imagine the AM Works conversion is not exactly cheap, but it would open up the choice for V12S buyers
Thanks for the comments on this thread.
Not sure I really grasp the point of the 7-speed manual and I wonder how many people bought one who were not already Aston Martin owners?
I drove an initial sportshift I Vantage back in around 2007(8?) and think I will have a try with the third generation box and see if that's fun. I have had a 997.2 turbo with PDK so I understand what a dual clutch box is capable of, and also that the SSIII is not dual clutch, so expectations are managed.
SSIII with AMShift would seem to offer something worth test driving...
Not sure I really grasp the point of the 7-speed manual and I wonder how many people bought one who were not already Aston Martin owners?
I drove an initial sportshift I Vantage back in around 2007(8?) and think I will have a try with the third generation box and see if that's fun. I have had a 997.2 turbo with PDK so I understand what a dual clutch box is capable of, and also that the SSIII is not dual clutch, so expectations are managed.
SSIII with AMShift would seem to offer something worth test driving...
JohnG1 said:
...
Not sure I really grasp the point of the 7-speed manual and I wonder how many people bought one who were not already Aston Martin owners?
...
There is no point. Especially on a car with a massive engine!Not sure I really grasp the point of the 7-speed manual and I wonder how many people bought one who were not already Aston Martin owners?
...
It's just another example of Aston mucking about with irrelevancies rather than what might see them progress IMO.
As for them always offering a manual...that in and of itself will guarantee little. They should be focussing 100% on the rest of the car. The market has only become more competitive in the last 12yrs. Their game across the board needs upping substantially and offering a manual box will do nothing other than attract a few luddite nerds (maybe).
I can easily see a manual box being offered as a very high cost option. How times have changed
(or 
)A further comment and question for folks who have driven a V12V and a V12VS (manual and sportshift).
When coming completely off throttle in V12V there is a pronounced change, the engine fuelling is cut and you can feel the engine brake effect. In V12VSM I did not feel that anywhere near as much. It was almost as if there is "comfort fuelling" - to avoid nodding dog effect for driver and passenger.
Anyone else notice this?
When coming completely off throttle in V12V there is a pronounced change, the engine fuelling is cut and you can feel the engine brake effect. In V12VSM I did not feel that anywhere near as much. It was almost as if there is "comfort fuelling" - to avoid nodding dog effect for driver and passenger.
Anyone else notice this?
JohnG1 said:
A further comment and question for folks who have driven a V12V and a V12VS (manual and sportshift).
When coming completely off throttle in V12V there is a pronounced change, the engine fuelling is cut and you can feel the engine brake effect. In V12VSM I did not feel that anywhere near as much. It was almost as if there is "comfort fuelling" - to avoid nodding dog effect for driver and passenger.
Anyone else notice this?
I haven't noticed that when in gear and just decelerating - seems quite normal to me so far, but I will try to test again and focus on it this time. Could be AM Shift however - see below!When coming completely off throttle in V12V there is a pronounced change, the engine fuelling is cut and you can feel the engine brake effect. In V12VSM I did not feel that anywhere near as much. It was almost as if there is "comfort fuelling" - to avoid nodding dog effect for driver and passenger.
Anyone else notice this?
Loosely related perhaps, but I have noticed that AM Shift has an unexpected impact on revs when you press the clutch and coast whilst slowing down. Last week I was in second gear in an underground car park at 2000RPM and I pressed the clutch to coast up to a parking spot.
To my surprise the revs remained at 2000RPM and didn't drop down to tick over level as expected. At first I thought it was a fault in the system so I did several tests after and it did the same every time. It then dawned on me why - it was AM Shift holding the revs up, because normally you would shift down a gear in such circumstances and thus the engine revs would need to increase. So as AM Shift rev matches on downshifts it was trying to be cleaver by holding them up to avoid them dropping then instantly having to increase a lot more because of the downshift.
I then turned off AM Shift and the behaviour was completely normal, with revs dropping off to tick over as per a normal full manual gearbox. Its a bit odd, but not normally something you would do so it doesn't bother me and on balance I prefer to have the rev matching blip on every downshift.
It may be that what you had experienced was also due to AM Shift playing a part - the test drive / demo I had was very keen to major on what AM Shift did so most of the time it was ON. Turning it off looses the various sporty upsides and features but it does make the gearbox behave normally.
Wow, that would really annoy me. And would it not be potentially embarrassing/come across as showoffish in a parking lot?
I'm guessing you are correct about John's observation being due to AM shift. I can't say I have ever noticed a difference between engine braking on my SS3 V12VS and my old V12V.
I'm guessing you are correct about John's observation being due to AM shift. I can't say I have ever noticed a difference between engine braking on my SS3 V12VS and my old V12V.
quench said:
Wow, that would really annoy me. And would it not be potentially embarrassing/come across as showoffish in a parking lot?
Well not really - its hardly screaming at 2000RPM and lets face it you wouldn't dip the clutch and coast at anything other than moderate/low revs like that. In fact its far more normal to press the clutch just as the engine reaches tickover in a car park - It was a bit an unusual setup in that I had a splurge of power to get the length of a straight to a space and then dipped the clutch.It took me 3 weeks to notice it once, so I really don't think its going to be a big deal either way. Plus its very easy to instantly stop - just poke the Sport button and turn off the AM Shift, or indeed run without it on a permanent basis as the default behaviour for AM Shift is a configurable setting in AMi III, so if it is to personal dislike then its easy to just never use.
BigScotty said:
Hi Adam,
For my own understanding, are you able to run with sport mode on, with AM shift off?
Yes, although both are operated by the Sport Button the two functions are separate. A short press toggles Sport Mode and a long press toggles AM Shift. You can set the AM Shift Mode at start up in the settings menu but you can't set the Sport Mode to be always on.For my own understanding, are you able to run with sport mode on, with AM shift off?
There is no direct link between functionality, I guess they just ran out of buttons and this one made the most sense to double up on. In fairness AM Shift falls under the heading of a "sport mode" function.
JohnG1 said:
Had a back-to-back drive in a V12V and then a V12VS.
A few differences I spotted (beyond the obvious) the V12VS does not have the leather pull in the boot to assist with closure. And the carpet does not look as good.
Whilst replying to the SP+ enquiry thread I've just realised why the carpet didn't look as good!A few differences I spotted (beyond the obvious) the V12VS does not have the leather pull in the boot to assist with closure. And the carpet does not look as good.
Sport Pack +, which I am guessing the demonstrator you drove had, includes the optional lightweight carpet. This costs £995 normally, and is a lot lighter, hence its inclusion in SP+, but it really is a lot thinner and lacks the quality feel of the std carpet!
I've got a question for you Adam. 
When I took a test drive in the 7 speed manual, I found the AM shift impressive, it made it very easy to drive, almost like an automatic, but without it on not as easy or pleasant as my 6 speed. So if I owned one, I'd probably drive in AM shift all the time. I would be interested to know as you drive one regularly, do you have a preference and do you find its just better to leave it in AM shift all the time? Quarterly said:
I've got a question for you Adam. When I took a test drive in the 7 speed manual, I found the AM shift impressive, it made it very easy to drive, almost like an automatic, but without it on not as easy or pleasant as my 6 speed. So if I owned one, I'd probably drive in AM shift all the time. I would be interested to know as you drive one regularly, do you have a preference and do you find its just better to leave it in AM shift all the time? Flat shifts are very hard to do and require a lot of focus to get them right, although with training I am sure it could come more naturally - but that's the only time I would see any whiff of a similarlity with an automatic. I can't say I really find it all that different to full manual mode, so I'm a bit perplexed as to why you found that, as even SSIII in full auto-mode is not really like a true automatic...
AdamV12V said:
JohnG1 said:
Had a back-to-back drive in a V12V and then a V12VS.
A few differences I spotted (beyond the obvious) the V12VS does not have the leather pull in the boot to assist with closure. And the carpet does not look as good.
Whilst replying to the SP+ enquiry thread I've just realised why the carpet didn't look as good!A few differences I spotted (beyond the obvious) the V12VS does not have the leather pull in the boot to assist with closure. And the carpet does not look as good.
Sport Pack +, which I am guessing the demonstrator you drove had, includes the optional lightweight carpet. This costs £995 normally, and is a lot lighter, hence its inclusion in SP+, but it really is a lot thinner and lacks the quality feel of the std carpet!
Looking through the dealer launch info for the sport plus pack, it makes no mention of inclusion of "lightweight" carpets. You get a simple choice of Obsidian Black or Phantom Grey - with no mention of it being lightweight.
Out of interest, where did you discover this information ?
V12s said:
AdamV12V said:
JohnG1 said:
Had a back-to-back drive in a V12V and then a V12VS.
A few differences I spotted (beyond the obvious) the V12VS does not have the leather pull in the boot to assist with closure. And the carpet does not look as good.
Whilst replying to the SP+ enquiry thread I've just realised why the carpet didn't look as good!A few differences I spotted (beyond the obvious) the V12VS does not have the leather pull in the boot to assist with closure. And the carpet does not look as good.
Sport Pack +, which I am guessing the demonstrator you drove had, includes the optional lightweight carpet. This costs £995 normally, and is a lot lighter, hence its inclusion in SP+, but it really is a lot thinner and lacks the quality feel of the std carpet!
Looking through the dealer launch info for the sport plus pack, it makes no mention of inclusion of "lightweight" carpets. You get a simple choice of Obsidian Black or Phantom Grey - with no mention of it being lightweight.
Out of interest, where did you discover this information ?
V12s said:
Hi Adam,
Looking through the dealer launch info for the sport plus pack, it makes no mention of inclusion of "lightweight" carpets. You get a simple choice of Obsidian Black or Phantom Grey - with no mention of it being lightweight.
Out of interest, where did you discover this information ?
I'm 99.9% sure that the Phantom Grey carpet is one and the same as the lightweight carpet - i.e. the lightweight carpet is only available in Phantom Grey, and the normal heavyweight carpet is not available in that colour either.Looking through the dealer launch info for the sport plus pack, it makes no mention of inclusion of "lightweight" carpets. You get a simple choice of Obsidian Black or Phantom Grey - with no mention of it being lightweight.
Out of interest, where did you discover this information ?
Admittedly my statement above is not therefore 100% correct as checking the brochure again now I am at home, I see it does seem to depend on if you take the light or dark interior as to if you get Obsidian *heavy) or Phantom (light) carpet. Therefore my statement is only correct if the OP's demo car had the light interior, so may not explain his thoughts on the subject.
EDIT - I see Jonby has also confirmed this above whilst I was posting this reply.
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