V12V (six speed manual) vs V12VS (seven speed manual)

[V12s]

AdamV12V said:

V12s said:

Hi Adam,

Looking through the dealer launch info for the sport plus pack, it makes no mention of inclusion of "lightweight" carpets. You get a simple choice of Obsidian Black or Phantom Grey - with no mention of it being lightweight.

Out of interest, where did you discover this information ?

I'm 99.9% sure that the Phantom Grey carpet is one and the same as the lightweight carpet - i.e. the lightweight carpet is only available in Phantom Grey, and the normal heavyweight carpet is not available in that colour either.

Admittedly my statement above is not therefore 100% correct as checking the brochure again now I am at home, I see it does seem to depend on if you take the light or dark interior as to if you get Obsidian *heavy) or Phantom (light) carpet. Therefore my statement is only correct if the OP's demo car had the light interior, so may not explain his thoughts on the subject.

EDIT - I see Jonby has also confirmed this above whilst I was posting this reply.

That makes sense then - as the Obsidian black carpet that I saw in an SP+ demo looked the same as the other cars in the showroom too.

Have never seen a car with Phantom carpet.

[JohnG1]

AdamV12V said:

Quarterly said:

I've got a question for you Adam. When I took a test drive in the 7 speed manual, I found the AM shift impressive, it made it very easy to drive, almost like an automatic, but without it on not as easy or pleasant as my 6 speed. So if I owned one, I'd probably drive in AM shift all the time. I would be interested to know as you drive one regularly, do you have a preference and do you find its just better to leave it in AM shift all the time?

I drive with it on all the time as I love the blips on down shifts. That's the biggest plus point of the feature if you ask me, but yes its a little easier during changes I guess due to the rev matching, but I still lift off the throttle for gear changes as I do when AM Shift is off as its second nature to do so, so it really doesn't affect driving style at all.

Flat shifts are very hard to do and require a lot of focus to get them right, although with training I am sure it could come more naturally - but that's the only time I would see any whiff of a similarlity with an automatic. I can't say I really find it all that different to full manual mode, so I'm a bit perplexed as to why you found that, as even SSIII in full auto-mode is not really like a true automatic...

Could you please explain a little more - why are flat shifts hard to do? I thought the point was that the TCU and ECU had a little chat and interrupted torque such that it had the effect of lifting off the throttle, but without having to lift off the throttle? I didn't try it on the test drive I had, so would love to find out more on this one...

[AdamV12V]

JohnG1 said:

AdamV12V said:

Quarterly said:

I've got a question for you Adam. When I took a test drive in the 7 speed manual, I found the AM shift impressive, it made it very easy to drive, almost like an automatic, but without it on not as easy or pleasant as my 6 speed. So if I owned one, I'd probably drive in AM shift all the time. I would be interested to know as you drive one regularly, do you have a preference and do you find its just better to leave it in AM shift all the time?

I drive with it on all the time as I love the blips on down shifts. That's the biggest plus point of the feature if you ask me, but yes its a little easier during changes I guess due to the rev matching, but I still lift off the throttle for gear changes as I do when AM Shift is off as its second nature to do so, so it really doesn't affect driving style at all.

Flat shifts are very hard to do and require a lot of focus to get them right, although with training I am sure it could come more naturally - but that's the only time I would see any whiff of a similarlity with an automatic. I can't say I really find it all that different to full manual mode, so I'm a bit perplexed as to why you found that, as even SSIII in full auto-mode is not really like a true automatic...

Could you please explain a little more - why are flat shifts hard to do? I thought the point was that the TCU and ECU had a little chat and interrupted torque such that it had the effect of lifting off the throttle, but without having to lift off the throttle? I didn't try it on the test drive I had, so would love to find out more on this one...

Sorry I've not made it clear what I meant. Technically its easy, you just keep the right foot to the floor, press the clutch, change gear and re-engage clutch as you would any other gear change. The hard bit is stopping your brain from taking the foot off the gas and you do that. After 30 years of driving manuals my brain is hard wired to keep lifting off the gas regardless, and even when really concentrating on it my leg still twitched to come off a little. After about 3-4 attempts I finally managed to override the years of training, and it was indeed very satisfying to do.

All of that was on the test drive however and I haven't actually done that in Kermit yet, but that's down to a) the car is still new and I feel it needs running in before doing anything quite so punishing, and b) I very rarely drive that hard anyway, so flat shifts are in reality a bit of a pub-bragging type thing. A bit like launch control modes on PDK cars etc... nobody realistically does it on a regular basis to their own car.

I drove the car exclusively all day today with AM Shift off to see how I got on. I have to say the gear changes didn't seem any different at all, just as smooth and just as easy to drive. I did miss the down blips though, so just as I was pulling into the garage tonight I ended the day's experiment by switching it back on!

Edited by AdamV12V on Wednesday 25th January 21:01

[roughrider]

AM shift simply matches the crankshaft rpm to the propshaft rpm, utilising the prop speed sensor that was used for the sportshift system. This gives smoother upshifts, and heel & toe effect downshifts.

[waremark]

If you don't enjoy rev matching yourself why do you choose a manual? When I have driven manuals equipped with rev matching I have left it firmly switched off. There is plenty of pleasure to be gained in driving a two pedal car, but for me the whole point of driving a manual is to get satisfaction from making good rev matched gear changes.

I have yet to try a V12SM. I expect I will like it, but not enough to pay the difference from my 20k mile 2012 V12V.

I am hoping to have a go in a GT8 this weekend - no namby-pamby electronic gear change assistance in that!

[woodsypedia]

waremark said:

If you don't enjoy rev matching yourself why do you choose a manual? When I have driven manuals equipped with rev matching I have left it firmly switched off. There is plenty of pleasure to be gained in driving a two pedal car, but for me the whole point of driving a manual is to get satisfaction from making good rev matched gear changes.

I have yet to try a V12SM. I expect I will like it, but not enough to pay the difference from my 20k mile 2012 V12V.

I am hoping to have a go in a GT8 this weekend - no namby-pamby electronic gear change assistance in that!

Indeed - but I d pro think you might be a little disappointed sadly. After living with a V12V - the V8 (regardless of all the aero and power tweaks) just doesn't feel enough. It's a beautiful thing - but then again, which Aston isn't?!

[12pack]

waremark said:

the whole point of driving a manual is to get satisfaction from making good rev matched gear changes.

+1. Though it does drive the SF crazy

[JohnG1]

waremark said:

If you don't enjoy rev matching yourself why do you choose a manual? When I have driven manuals equipped with rev matching I have left it firmly switched off. There is plenty of pleasure to be gained in driving a two pedal car, but for me the whole point of driving a manual is to get satisfaction from making good rev matched gear changes.

I have yet to try a V12SM. I expect I will like it, but not enough to pay the difference from my 20k mile 2012 V12V.

I am hoping to have a go in a GT8 this weekend - no namby-pamby electronic gear change assistance in that!

And did Tim let you drive it? How was it?

[JohnG1]

AdamV12V said:

Sorry I've not made it clear what I meant. Technically its easy, you just keep the right foot to the floor, press the clutch, change gear and re-engage clutch as you would any other gear change. The hard bit is stopping your brain from taking the foot off the gas and you do that. After 30 years of driving manuals my brain is hard wired to keep lifting off the gas regardless, and even when really concentrating on it my leg still twitched to come off a little. After about 3-4 attempts I finally managed to override the years of training, and it was indeed very satisfying to do.

All of that was on the test drive however and I haven't actually done that in Kermit yet, but that's down to a) the car is still new and I feel it needs running in before doing anything quite so punishing, and b) I very rarely drive that hard anyway, so flat shifts are in reality a bit of a pub-bragging type thing. A bit like launch control modes on PDK cars etc... nobody realistically does it on a regular basis to their own car.

I drove the car exclusively all day today with AM Shift off to see how I got on. I have to say the gear changes didn't seem any different at all, just as smooth and just as easy to drive. I did miss the down blips though, so just as I was pulling into the garage tonight I ended the day's experiment by switching it back on!

Edited by AdamV12V on Wednesday 25th January 21:01

Ok, I understand this better now, thank you for the clarification. A follow-up question... do you have to be WOT to use AMShift? Or can you be driving on partial throttle and therefore not have to lift off the throttle?

[JohnG1]

One other thing - the brakes in V12VSM seem much more powerful than V12V. Which is pretty staggering since V12V brakes are immense. Anyone with more experience have any thoughts on this one?

[roughrider]

JohnG1 said:

One other thing - the brakes in V12VSM seem much more powerful than V12V. Which is pretty staggering since V12V brakes are immense. Anyone with more experience have any thoughts on this one?

Generation 3 Brembo CCM brakes.
The only major common component between V12V and V12VS, is the bodyshell. New engine, gearbox, brakes, suspension, etc.

[jonby]

JohnG1 said:

One other thing - the brakes in V12VSM seem much more powerful than V12V. Which is pretty staggering since V12V brakes are immense. Anyone with more experience have any thoughts on this one?

The phyisical spec reads the same for both cars -Front: Ventilated carbon ceramic discs, 398 mm diameter with six-piston monobloc calipers
Rear: Ventilated carbon ceramic discs, 360 mm diameter with four-piston monobloc calipers

When they launched V12S they claimed the new brakes were : 3rd generation brakes, the best we’ve ever developed. Working with specialist suppliers we created a revised disc coating and the largest braking surface ever used on an Aston Martin

Other than the new coating, I'm not sure what the differences between gen 2 and gen 3 are though

[JohnG1]

roughrider said:

JohnG1 said:

One other thing - the brakes in V12VSM seem much more powerful than V12V. Which is pretty staggering since V12V brakes are immense. Anyone with more experience have any thoughts on this one?

Generation 3 Brembo CCM brakes.
The only major common component between V12V and V12VS, is the bodyshell. New engine, gearbox, brakes, suspension, etc.

I am not sure I would be so bold. The VVT heads and ECU are different, but the block is the same as are the ancilliaries. Valley cover is a different colour too!

Suspension - new springs and dampers, the rest is the same isn't it? Gearbox agreed.

But anyway - thoughts on relative performance in real world usage?

I did an emergency stop in a V12V at Millbrook, 30mph to dead stop in one car length. Would love to find more data on relative performance...

[AdamV12V]

JohnG1 said:

Ok, I understand this better now, thank you for the clarification. A follow-up question... do you have to be WOT to use AMShift? Or can you be driving on partial throttle and therefore not have to lift off the throttle?

No it seems to work with any level of throttle, but logically wide open would be the most intuitive position as to me the whole point of flat shifting seems to be to get a hardcore, min time and max performance shift.

As I put earlier I do feel that the flat shift is just pub bragging rights - I really don't see me using it, even when say taking mates out for a spin to show what the car is like. The blip on downshifts is however very satisfying and adds to sporty feel day to day and even buzzing along in traffic, without the need to actually do the blip yourself, so for me is the reason AM-Shift stays on. A few manual sports cars have similar down-shift blip features now, so this isn't something unique like the flat shifts perhaps are, but I still personally quite like it and it's super easy to turn off if you don't.

[Upperworks]

JohnG1 said:

One other thing - the brakes in V12VSM seem much more powerful than V12V. Which is pretty staggering since V12V brakes are immense. Anyone with more experience have any thoughts on this one?

I'm surprised how much better the breaks on my Vanquish are the on my V12V. Whether that's new vs a car on 33K I don't know, but noticeably better.

[waremark]

In the Harry Metcalfe DB11 video, one of his few criticisms is that the brakes are difficult to modulate. How does the spec of the DB11 brakes compare? Did the launch edition cars have CCM?

[Upperworks]

waremark said:

In the Harry Metcalfe DB11 video, one of his few criticisms is that the brakes are difficult to modulate. How does the spec of the DB11 brakes compare? Did the launch edition cars have CCM?

Are they even an option on the DB11?

[CSK1]

No CCM on DB11, not even offered as an optional extra.

[quench]

JohnG1 said:

One other thing - the brakes in V12VSM seem much more powerful than V12V. Which is pretty staggering since V12V brakes are immense. Anyone with more experience have any thoughts on this one?

Having an S currently and previously having had a 'plain' V12V, I can say that "much more powerful" is a big overstatement. Incrementally better feel, m..a..y..b..e ?

CCMs, sticky tires or not, braking on Astons is always going to be limited by the front engine layout/weight distribution, plus they're heavy cars..

[sierraV12V]

quench said:

Having an S currently and previously having had a 'plain' V12V, I can say that "much more powerful" is a big overstatement. Incrementally better feel, m..a..y..b..e ?

CCMs, sticky tires or not, braking on Astons is always going to be limited by the front engine layout/weight distribution, plus they're heavy cars..

I've done some track time in both the V12V and a V12VS (paddle version), didn't really notice a difference in braking but then again I didn't drive these back-to-back or on the same track. With either car the brakes are extremely good, the stock pads don't last too long with track use but that's my only complaint. Like quench says, tires make a difference in braking capability so if you compare a car with fresh tires vs a car with older or different tires that could make a noticeable difference. Ultimately the tires are the limiting factor in braking.