Discussion
Kurgen_ said:
380bhp/302 ft/lbs in a car that weighs 1570kg..
figs would have looked good ten years ago.!
I know Aston do not want to tread on the toes pf DB9/Vanquish owners but please.. 242bhp/tonne is poor for an £80k sports car.
At least it looks stunning, from the front anyway.
Rob
PS.. my Sag with 406bhp and weighing in at 1060 kg would eat it for breakfast.
My RC Evo has 8hp and weighs less than 5kg (1600 bhp/ton)- now that would eat your Saggy for breakfast, and didn't cost me anywhere near as much...
cathalm said:
This is true, however, this Aston model is basically the equivalent of the basic 911 carrera 2. There is indeed a big price difference but that is because of a few things......
The problem with your argument is, it suggests the manufacturer chooses what their product is positioned against. 99% of the time its price which determines what your competing against.
I understand and agree with many of your arguments, wrt exclusivity, etc.
But the simple fact is at 80k+ options its out of reach of 911 C2 buyers. 911 C2 buyers are not gonna suddenly find they have an extra 20k+ to spend.
The target market is people with ~90k to spend. And those buyers will be looking at 911TT's, SL AMG Mercs, etc, not 911 C2's.
Therefore IMO the numerous comparrisons to the C2 are redundant.
As an example the same arguments could be applied to make the MR2 the main competitor for the Boxster.
>> Edited by 5to1 on Thursday 29th September 01:23
agoogy said:
And I don't think you'll find a 911/996/997 owner or motoring correspondent that thinks its clinical or cold, surely if it were it wouldn't keep winning award after award for Performance car of the year and such like.
I beg to differ. I have a 997 at present and “clinical” and “cold” are a good summary of my feelings. The word I use most often to describe it is “sterile”.
Don’t get me wrong: it’s a fabulous car. It’s well-engineered and designed, the performance and handling are great and it’s fun to drive, but …… I can’t warm to it. I admire it immensely, but there’s no emotional involvement for me. I’m glad I tried one, but I don’t think I would miss it if it went tomorrow.
I had more of an emotional connection with, and fonder memories of, my old Alfa GTV of years ago. That car put a smile on my face every time I got into it; the 997 doesn’t have the same effect.
That’s what I’m looking for / expecting from the AMV8 (and I have one on order – March ’06, I hope). Slightly better track times and minute differences in steering feel, etc. are meaningless to me. This is my purely self-indulgent reward for all those hours of toil and how it makes me feel is more important to me than outright performance stats.
It has to make me smile and it has to have, in the words of the slogan, “power, beauty and soul”. The 997 has the first two but not the third. As for the AMV8, time will tell if it has all three. It’s looking good to me and the anticipation of its arrival is an exquisite form of agony.
5to1 said:
This is true, however, this Aston model is basically the equivalent of the basic 911 carrera 2. There is indeed a big price difference but that is because of a few things......
The problem with your argument is, it suggests the manufacturer chooses what their product is positioned against. 99% of the time its price which determines what your competing against.
I understand and agree with many of your arguments, wrt exclusivity, etc.
But the simple fact is at 80k+ options its out of reach of 911 C2 buyers. 911 C2 buyers are not gonna suddenly find they have an extra 20k+ to spend.
The target market is people with ~90k to spend. And those buyers will be looking at 911TT's, SL AMG Mercs, etc, not 911 C2's.
Therefore IMO the numerous comparrisons to the C2 are redundant.
As an example the same arguments could be applied to make the MR2 the main competitor for the Boxster.
>> Edited by 5to1 on Thursday 29th September 01:23
I suggest you have a look at the "build-your-own" sectio of the 911 website. Basic 911s is just that - devoid of all but the essentials and losts of crappy plastic trim.
After I've added on proper sports seats, full natural leather, pccb, sports shifter and exhaust, leather headliner, sport chrono, stainless to replace plastic, stereo and tracker the price is nudging 75,000.
5to1 said:
This is true, however, this Aston model is basically the equivalent of the basic 911 carrera 2. There is indeed a big price difference but that is because of a few things......
The problem with your argument is, it suggests the manufacturer chooses what their product is positioned against. 99% of the time its price which determines what your competing against.
I understand and agree with many of your arguments, wrt exclusivity, etc.
But the simple fact is at 80k+ options its out of reach of 911 C2 buyers. 911 C2 buyers are not gonna suddenly find they have an extra 20k+ to spend.
The target market is people with ~90k to spend. And those buyers will be looking at 911TT's, SL AMG Mercs, etc, not 911 C2's.
Therefore IMO the numerous comparrisons to the C2 are redundant.
As an example the same arguments could be applied to make the MR2 the main competitor for the Boxster.
>> Edited by 5to1 on Thursday 29th September 01:23
I do know what you are saying, from a price point of view you are of course correct. But the price differential is made up by the extra desirably and hand crafted nature of the thing. That's worth a lot. Theer will be future hotter versions of the Vantage and I would like them judged against the "technological" equivalent 911, rather than the price equivalent. If you don't value the style and haft crafted thing as worth 20k to you the fine buy a 911 (ladyshave) pr even a maser gransport. But if you do value those things that much and are willing to pay that much extra for it, thenyou wanna see a comparison based on tecnological parity not an uneven one with a car further up its respective range.
I do think that the hottest version will need 500bhp odd, and maybe at 100k. Primarily because of the new Jag XK. While that car will be more of a GT, it will take sales from bot the Vantage and DB9 in xkr spec. If the XKR has 400bhp again, it'll be quicker than the these due to the weight. If as has been reported, it may have 500bhp itself, to be on a level with the heavier SL and M5, then Aston must pull its finger out power wise.
The top Astons should, to me, be outrageously powerfull, as the 90's cars were in their day. The Vanquish needs to have a manual version built with 600Bhp, the DB9 needs ultimately a GT version with 550, and the Vantage needs a GT with 500, IMO.
As for the MR2/Boxster thing, that's a bit weak, the MR" is in no way a Boxster rival, even if you remove price, similar layout, but a 140bhp car versus a bigger car pushing on towards the 300BHP mark isn't the best example you could give.
The MR2/Boxster example is an extreme one to highlight my point.
I do agree the V8 has many assets (as you've listed) which compensate for the lack of oomph when compared to other cars in this price range.
Things like interior finish and design are things I value. And have been singing the praises of the DB9 and AMV8 when any discussion comes up. I believe Ferrari and Lamborghini should take a note out of Astons book, because their interiors do not seem worthy of 100k+ cars.
I know a few people who have bought C2's and the number one factor which determined the other cars they considered was price. I always ask them why not a 911TT, and when you get to the truth the answer was always it was too much. Although most did aspire to get one eventually.
Personally I like my reviews to be relevant to the consumer. And that means comparing the cars that would be on a buyers list (a C2 is rarely going to be on that list).
The C2 comparrison originally arose because Aston briefed everyone that the AMV8 would be priced in the 60's. That placed it in base 911 Territory. Its poor journalism IMO, that its still being compared to the C2.
I do agree the V8 has many assets (as you've listed) which compensate for the lack of oomph when compared to other cars in this price range.
Things like interior finish and design are things I value. And have been singing the praises of the DB9 and AMV8 when any discussion comes up. I believe Ferrari and Lamborghini should take a note out of Astons book, because their interiors do not seem worthy of 100k+ cars.
I know a few people who have bought C2's and the number one factor which determined the other cars they considered was price. I always ask them why not a 911TT, and when you get to the truth the answer was always it was too much. Although most did aspire to get one eventually.
Personally I like my reviews to be relevant to the consumer. And that means comparing the cars that would be on a buyers list (a C2 is rarely going to be on that list).
The C2 comparrison originally arose because Aston briefed everyone that the AMV8 would be priced in the 60's. That placed it in base 911 Territory. Its poor journalism IMO, that its still being compared to the C2.
Stunning Car - Bravo A.M. - this is an absolute winner!
What a fabulous balance of design - I drive a T350 which I always thought was the worlds no.1 most beautiful car (along with a bunch of Italians apparently) however this car is svelt, sexy, perfectly in balance - all they need now is some serious horses to match the looks. Magnificent effort - and ... best of all ... it's British!
What a fabulous balance of design - I drive a T350 which I always thought was the worlds no.1 most beautiful car (along with a bunch of Italians apparently) however this car is svelt, sexy, perfectly in balance - all they need now is some serious horses to match the looks. Magnificent effort - and ... best of all ... it's British!
stanwan said:
I suggest you have a look at the "build-your-own" sectio of the 911 website. Basic 911s is just that - devoid of all but the essentials and losts of crappy plastic trim.
After I've added on proper sports seats, full natural leather, pccb, sports shifter and exhaust, leather headliner, sport chrono, stainless to replace plastic, stereo and tracker the price is nudging 75,000.
I suggest you read my post and think again what relevance this has to my point.
I'm not questioning if the AMV8 represents value for money against the C2.
It really depends on the production numbers AM/Ford has planned.
What it lacks in power can easily be overcome by the exclusivity factor if they keep numbers low.
IMO the C2 competitor briefings coming from them were just a smokescreen to attain the maximum publicity. It was always going to be 80k, and the numbers they run will reflect this price tag.
If it was a serious plan on their part and they plan to ramp production to make AM seriously profitable. They may well tarnish AM in the same way they have Jaguar.
The DB9 and Vanquish are great cars. But rightly or wrongly the reliability scare stories have not improved AM's reputation wrt to producing daily drivers. Something the 2 main competitors in the 80-100k price bracket are renowned for (911TT/SL55).
What it lacks in power can easily be overcome by the exclusivity factor if they keep numbers low.
IMO the C2 competitor briefings coming from them were just a smokescreen to attain the maximum publicity. It was always going to be 80k, and the numbers they run will reflect this price tag.
If it was a serious plan on their part and they plan to ramp production to make AM seriously profitable. They may well tarnish AM in the same way they have Jaguar.
The DB9 and Vanquish are great cars. But rightly or wrongly the reliability scare stories have not improved AM's reputation wrt to producing daily drivers. Something the 2 main competitors in the 80-100k price bracket are renowned for (911TT/SL55).
My 911 has not been in the least bit reliable. It has had two engine replacements and multiple rms failures. I fidn this unacceptable on a so-called reliable german car that has not travelled for more than 40k miles.
Im' getting a little tired of the german power-pi$$ing contest at the moment - it's getting incredibly tedious when the only thing to differentiate between cars is the power output.
The problem is that one tries to use a rational yardstick to justify such an irrational purchase. This car isn't really aimed at individuals that are fussing over the power+toys/£ ratios.
>> Edited by stanwan on Friday 30th September 21:29
Im' getting a little tired of the german power-pi$$ing contest at the moment - it's getting incredibly tedious when the only thing to differentiate between cars is the power output.
The problem is that one tries to use a rational yardstick to justify such an irrational purchase. This car isn't really aimed at individuals that are fussing over the power+toys/£ ratios.
>> Edited by stanwan on Friday 30th September 21:29
stanwan said:
My 911 has not been in the least bit reliable. It has had two engine replacements and multiple rms failures. I fidn this unacceptable on a so-called reliable german car that has not travelled for more than 40k miles.
Im' getting a little tired of the german power-pi$$ing contest at the moment - it's getting incredibly tedious when the only thing to differentiate between cars is the power output.
The problem is that one tries to use a rational yardstick to justify such an irrational purchase. This car isn't really aimed at individuals that are fussing over the power+toys/£ ratios.
>> Edited by stanwan on Friday 30th September 21:29
From your posts you seem to be taking the extreme view in favour of the AMV8.
Fine your 911 has not been reliable. Fine you can spec a 75k 911. Shall I go and find posts by people complaining about their DB9 spending more time in the shop then with them? Or shld I look down the AMV8 spec list and bump it up to a 90k car?
Assessing the cars target market requires a rational analysis, not a flag waving we can beat the Germans base model approach.
Lets distill this down to 2 simple questions.
Which cars do you think will be on the shortlist of prospective AMV8 buyers? 911/SL55 or the C2?
And if you ask the target market which car is better as a daily driver (reliability wise especially), do you think the answer will be Porsche/Merc or Aston?
5to1 said:
stanwan said:
My 911 has not been in the least bit reliable. It has had two engine replacements and multiple rms failures. I fidn this unacceptable on a so-called reliable german car that has not travelled for more than 40k miles.
Im' getting a little tired of the german power-pi$$ing contest at the moment - it's getting incredibly tedious when the only thing to differentiate between cars is the power output.
The problem is that one tries to use a rational yardstick to justify such an irrational purchase. This car isn't really aimed at individuals that are fussing over the power+toys/£ ratios.
>> Edited by stanwan on Friday 30th September 21:29
From your posts you seem to be taking the extreme view in favour of the AMV8.
Fine your 911 has not been reliable. Fine you can spec a 75k 911. Shall I go and find posts by people complaining about their DB9 spending more time in the shop then with them? Or shld I look down the AMV8 spec list and bump it up to a 90k car?
Assessing the cars target market requires a rational analysis, not a flag waving we can beat the Germans base model approach.
Lets distill this down to 2 simple questions.
Which cars do you think will be on the shortlist of prospective AMV8 buyers? 911/SL55 or the C2?
And if you ask the target market which car is better as a daily driver (reliability wise especially), do you think the answer will be Porsche/Merc or Aston?
It doesn't really matter if I'm going to have a 911 (for wifey) and the AMV8? Problem is I have a 911, but I desire an amv8. A light aircraft would be nice to use for the work commute but I've yet to learn how to fly!
Perceived reliability is one thing, the reality is often quite different. I'm approaching AM ownership with an open mind and hopefully will be pleasantly surprised.
The 75k 911 is not a figure I plucked out of nowhere- it is in fact the spec of the car I wished to purchase, as is the 83k spec of the v8 THAT I WISH TO HAVE!
I can't believe you are advocating a rational analysis of buying 65k car over an 80k car - spending these sums of money on cars is an emotive choice. If logic dictated my choice I'd buy a honda civic.
It's this emotive element which drives people to buy a 911S over the boxster/caymen, or even the basic carrera.
>> Edited by stanwan on Friday 30th September 22:31
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