Aston Martin advice from Bamford Rose independent specialist

[BamfordMike]

Stuart Dickinson said:

Not sure why you're so upset with me or with RSC? Never had a go at you guys or what you do. You seem like a great outfit. We've seen great results from the products we offer and have lots of happy customers who think our ECU tuning is great and who have reported great gains.

A war of words with anybody is not my intention, but sometimes happens when the truth is uncovered and competing views collide. My slight problem was that you entered this forum and made an allegation about the power claims of Quicksilver products, which from your RSC standpoint, was a little unfair in my opinion.

[rick-derby-]

BamfordMike said:

So what's the big problem.... If my guys can do the job in 6 hours and I pass the cost saving on to the customer why the interest....?? I'm quite happy to offer clutch change training courses to put everyone on a level playing field.... ohh, and i'll throw-in 'flywheel analysis' for free...

You missed my point completely, I have not said how long or how many hours I charge for a clutch replacement, just what Aston Martin state to the dealer network the labour time is, and parts the dealers are probably charging for, I just thought it was a bit unfair in your interpretation, Your offer of training "so we are all on a level playing field" is also unfair as the implication is that others do not know what they are doing and no one has said that it can not be done quicker than the stated labour time,

[tonyhall38]

you lot should sell tickets for this......might save on the labour costs.....

[vantager]

Mike - if the clutch is weak from original design, is there a better alternative clutch that fixes this issue?

[With these feet]

One clutch I did on a road car (N400) needed a flywheel as it was pretty badly "hot-spotted". This in turn reuduces the lifespan of the new clutch as it grooves the friction plate almost immediately.
I had the flywheel skimmed to save costs and came in £3500 cheaper than the AM dealer that quoted the job... (was told the price quoted after the job was done!)

Once the multi-plate clutch is fitted, the weak point IMO will be the gearbox, I have replaced numerous synchro hubs due to poor changing by the driver(s)..
Though I have been informed there is a 1st/2nd mod with a revised tooth angle on the gear and synchro available for the manual only. Still, it requires a new 1st,2nd and layshaft so not a cheap option!

[Stuart Dickinson]

BamfordMike said:

A war of words with anybody is not my intention, but sometimes happens when the truth is uncovered and competing views collide. My slight problem was that you entered this forum and made an allegation about the power claims of Quicksilver products, which from your RSC standpoint, was a little unfair in my opinion.

I'm sorry that bothered you, was just looking for clarification as they had always stated 20BHP and you were stating a lot less. The reason I asked for this clarification was that you referred to 'the emperor's clothes' repeatedly when discussing upgrades and I wanted clarification, seeing as your company is forming an association with Quicksilver, who used to claim 20BHP, but as you have cleared up are now stating 3.5BHP. It was probably in your interest to clear that up anyway, lest you get accused of the same thing yourself

[BamfordMike]

vantager said:

Mike - if the clutch is weak from original design, is there a better alternative clutch that fixes this issue?

Hi.

I think a number of people over time on the main forum have commented on their experiences, both good and bad, on clutches from different sources. So there are a few options, yes.

A clutch is a clutch, been around since the dawn of the petrol engine and all do the same job. The V8 Vantage clutch basket housing is pretty standard pattern / design within the industry in terms of critical dimensions and so on, meaning anyone can walk off to a supplier and start with this 'building block'. Next the plates, open the pages of any suppliers parts list, such as AP Racing or Valeo, and the correct dimension friction plates can be bought, the limit of the exotic material which the plates are made of is the limit of ones budget. Fix it all together, spin it up on a balancing machine - Hey presto... a clutch is born.

The difference with the clutch Aftermarket folk create and the manufacturers original is the selection of friction plate material. Here, the aftermarket guys will 'beef-up' material to overcome a problem caused by the manufacturers selection made with volume production (price) in mind. But, what everyone wants to be sure of is a validated package when straying away from OE parts.

As one of the GT4 racing guys correctly states above, the problem customers are currently experiencing will go away with a twinplate design clutch (OE clutch is single plate). The clutch Bamford Rose offers is the twinplate clutch, same in design as the clutch fitted to over 75 Aston Martin GT4 cars raced and rally'd across the world since 2005. This clutch is mounted to a flywheel which is lighter in mass to the original, meaning when this kit is fitted the customer gets a 'double win'. Not just is clutch performance and longevity improved, but the customer also benefits from an engine which revs up much quicker giving improved throttle response. But.... if the reason the single plate clutch failed was misuse / abuse, such as from driver resting foot on clutch pedal. Soon enough, but not as soon as with OE single plate clutch, this clutch will most likely burn-out also.

Although I have fitted this clutch to countless motorsport cars, which conduct a season on one clutch, which then comes back for engine service with half the friction plate life left on it. To apply this kit to a road car feels like, although it shouldn't, that i'm back at car / application number 1 - but that's just the cautious engineer in me. For this reason, Bamford Rose is building a customer car with the entire Bamford Rose performance upgrade range, including clutch and flywheel, which will 'fly the flag'.

Mike.

[BamfordMike]

Stuart Dickinson said:

I'm sorry that bothered you, was just looking for clarification as they had always stated 20BHP and you were stating a lot less. The reason I asked for this clarification was that you referred to 'the emperor's clothes' repeatedly when discussing upgrades and I wanted clarification, seeing as your company is forming an association with Quicksilver, who used to claim 20BHP, but as you have cleared up are now stating 3.5BHP. It was probably in your interest to clear that up anyway, lest you get accused of the same thing yourself

OK, no problem...My skin is thicker than the friction pad material on most Aston clutches I welcome your opinion and input anytime and i'm sure it would offer value to owners...

[BamfordMike]

rick-derby- said:

You missed my point completely, I have not said how long or how many hours I charge for a clutch replacement, just what Aston Martin state to the dealer network the labour time is, and parts the dealers are probably charging for, I just thought it was a bit unfair in your interpretation, Your offer of training "so we are all on a level playing field" is also unfair as the implication is that others do not know what they are doing and no one has said that it can not be done quicker than the stated labour time,

I knew when starting this forum Bamford Rose would 'ruffle a few feathers', through nothing other than a 'no-bull' approach dispelling myths and by perhaps being a little more cost effective regarding repairs by drawing off the knowledge acquired from developing these cars. Speaking from a level of authority is simply a bi-product of that privileged position.

Your perspective of the cars life in service would be a welcome addition to this insight, so please continue to contribute whenever you have a contribution.

All the best.
Mike.

[BamfordMike]

With these feet said:

One clutch I did on a road car (N400) needed a flywheel as it was pretty badly "hot-spotted". This in turn reuduces the lifespan of the new clutch as it grooves the friction plate almost immediately.
I had the flywheel skimmed to save costs and came in £3500 cheaper than the AM dealer that quoted the job... (was told the price quoted after the job was done!)

Once the multi-plate clutch is fitted, the weak point IMO will be the gearbox, I have replaced numerous synchro hubs due to poor changing by the driver(s)..
Though I have been informed there is a 1st/2nd mod with a revised tooth angle on the gear and synchro available for the manual only. Still, it requires a new 1st,2nd and layshaft so not a cheap option!

I think you have hit the nail on the head, or the rivet on the flywheel here Steve, which was the original point of my discussion.
The cost of clutch change at dealer is awful, especially when clutches appear to fail prematurely and the factory does not appear to issue rectification. For owners who do not want to stray from main dealer there is no alternative but to pay through the nose. And if the breakdown of the job is made transparent (like I did originally, including purchase of the clutch kit at discount price from RRP), value for money is a long way off...

Mike.

[flinder]

Mike,

This past winter AM had a recall on faulty chassis bolts. AM knew where the faulty ones were and able to limit the replacement to a group of VIN numbers.

Is there a similar known boundary on the thermostat failures? I have an '07 coupe, will I have to replace mine?

Are there lesser cost sources for the same V8 part? The 4.2L Jag part is said to fit. How about the 3.9L Lincoln LS, or the 3.9L Thunderbird? I believe they are all off the same aluminum block. That $150 AM thermostat might be had for $20 from Ford.

[docj]

Hi All,

very interesting posts and powerful answers here, I need a little help and advice, hope you can help...
I am a Vanquish S 05 Portuguese owner, very well maintained and 20 Mks, lasts two weeks my car begin to strangely change gears in hi speed, 4/5/6 only enters after the rpms dropped to 4000, yesterday I cant go to 5 and 6 gears, very rough and audible gears change and impossible to get the 5 or 6 ...
the dealer will check in may (...) but i want to have an idea of what can be or if it possible to make a good upgrade to the clutch or the gearbox...

tanks all and regards from Portugal

JC

[CurveEater]

BamfordMike-

First of all, thank you for your insights and willingness to post and answer our numerous questions. It is really helpful to get the inside skinny on our vehicles from an insider's perspective.

I am toying with the idea of a Vantage S, as it offers a few of the mods as standard that I would pay for otherwise. Aston states that there are 50 changes to the S, but there are, I am sure, only a few that really matter performance-wise.

My biggest reason for considering the S, however, is the new 7-speed gearbox. Other than the obvious change to 7 gears from 6, is this box a game-changer? The inclusion of a better gearbox would be enough of a reason to "trade up", as it were, if that is the case. Do you expect that the new box will appear after September as an option on the non-S versions of the car?

With the change in the intake, we start at 430 ponies. If I added the sport cats (10.5 hp gain), sports silencer (3.5 hp gain) and your exhaust manifold (15 hp gain), does the hp gain from those three bits that is seen in the regular 4.7 transfer laterally?

Edited by CurveEater on Sunday 24th April 17:53

Edited by CurveEater on Sunday 24th April 17:54

[BamfordMike]

flinder said:

Mike,

This past winter AM had a recall on faulty chassis bolts. AM knew where the faulty ones were and able to limit the replacement to a group of VIN numbers.

Is there a similar known boundary on the thermostat failures? I have an '07 coupe, will I have to replace mine?

Are there lesser cost sources for the same V8 part? The 4.2L Jag part is said to fit. How about the 3.9L Lincoln LS, or the 3.9L Thunderbird? I believe they are all off the same aluminum block. That $150 AM thermostat might be had for $20 from Ford.

Hi.

I have witnessed the thermostat problem on much younger cars than yours, so you are unfortunately ‘in the window’. However, the failure rate is not 100%, far from it. So unless you experience longer than normal periods to achieve normal operating temperature then don’t panic. And even if you do encounter this problem, engine damage or any other detrimental effect is not instantaneous.

I will check to see if the ‘stat is common across the derivatives you mention. I understand that each application utilises different cross-over housings / castings, but the thermostat fitted inside might well be common.

[BamfordMike]

docj said:

Hi All,

I am a Vanquish S 05 Portuguese owner, very well maintained and 20 Mks, lasts two weeks my car begin to strangely change gears in hi speed, 4/5/6 only enters after the rpms dropped to 4000, yesterday I cant go to 5 and 6 gears, very rough and audible gears change and impossible to get the 5 or 6 ...
the dealer will check in may (...) but i want to have an idea of what can be or if it possible to make a good upgrade to the clutch or the gearbox...


JC

Hi.

Before any of the mechanics inside the ‘box are questioned, the operation and secure mounting of the electronics / actuation system should be examined.
The electronic side of gear selection is normally the cause of most problems.
It is a common upgrade, even practiced at main dealers, to improve electronic actuation system mounting by enlarging thread / bolt size. When certain the electronics are functioning correctly and if crunching into all gears remains, the dealer should check clutch wear. Last on the list would be the mechanics of the ‘box. I assume you get many gearbox error codes on the driver display and the gearbox goes into a ‘limp-home’ mode?

My thoughts on upgrades… Well...apart from strengthening the mounting of the electronic system, you already have the ‘S’, so 520BHP compared with standard car 460 (ish) BHP, and the ‘S’'s differential ratio which builds on that extra power making acceleration much quicker. So in my opinion, to make this car the ultimate drivers machine and overcome niggling gear selection problems at the same time would be to 'upgrade' to the Works Service manual gearbox. Of course, that’s if manual gear selection is acceptable for you.

I Hope your problem is simply the electronics (simplest and easiest fix) and you enjoy the summer in Portugal in your beast…!

Mike.

[BamfordMike]

CurveEater said:

BamfordMike-


I am toying with the idea of a Vantage S, as it offers a few of the mods as standard that I would pay for otherwise. Aston states that there are 50 changes to the S, but there are, I am sure, only a few that really matter performance-wise.

My biggest reason for considering the S, however, is the new 7-speed gearbox. Other than the obvious change to 7 gears from 6, is this box a game-changer? The inclusion of a better gearbox would be enough of a reason to "trade up", as it were, if that is the case. Do you expect that the new box will appear after September as an option on the non-S versions of the car?

With the change in the intake, we start at 430 ponies. If I added the sport cats (10.5 hp gain), sports silencer (3.5 hp gain) and your exhaust manifold (15 hp gain), does the hp gain from those three bits that is seen in the regular 4.7 transfer laterally?

Hi.

Firstly the easy question – Yes, the elements of Bamford Rose performance kit transfer to all derivatives. So whether 4.3L or 4.7L the gain is 39BHP, but as you identify, because the ‘S’ has sports air intake system as standard, the gain from the kit reduces by 10 to 29BHP - Not forgetting a glorious / throaty exhaust note too…!

Most people have a personal view regarding the benefits and drawbacks of the Vantages ASM system, so you really need to test-drive to find out yours. Mine would be the low speed driveabilty / low speed manoeuvring niggles (mostly impossible to drive around) that the system exhibits, offset against supremely fast and effortless shifting when high speed / spirited / track driving.

Is the ‘S’ game-changing? Game-changing in my book would have been a DSG version gearbox (as seen in Skoda’s and Seat’s) and at least 100BHP per litre engine performance, but as an overall package the ‘S’ is certainly a great sports car (steering, suspension and braking system updates over normal Vantage).

ASM systems will probably always come with 'niggles', and in my opinion the same niggles which were present since the Vantage was first fitted with ASM still exist, to a greater or lesser extent. Some niggles have been overcome but is the side effect better than the cure (creep Vs no creep)?? I can't answer these questions because they are down to each owners personal preference / like or dislike. My advice - test drive it and if you are really sold on the rest of the car, to the point of trading-up, this (Vantage ‘S’) is as good as it will get for the foreseeable. Meaning there is nothing on the cards to either patiently wait for or (beyond normal depreciation) nothing new to de-value the car should you buy it and change your mind and want to sell in the medium term.

I think that as stocks of the current production (non ‘S’) are sold the ‘S’ will become the only variant offered for sale.

Any further questions please don’t hesitate to ask…

[CurveEater]

BamfordMike-

Thanks very much for the excellent info on the manual auto and the Vantage S.

What are the true differences between the MY 2010 Sport Package and non-Sport Package Vantage? I have been told that the only real differences are the wheels (lighter weight), the dampers and beefier rear anti-sway bar. While the coupe gets a beefed-up rear anti-sway bar, the one used in the Roadster remains the same.

Is there anything that I am missing?

[mikey k]

My roadster has the sports pack on it, AFAIK the differences are;
lighter alloys
lighter & different Bilstein dampers and springs
stiffer rear ARB (coupe only)
No difference to ride height
No difference on geometry

It may not sound alot but it makes a big difference on the road

[BamfordMike]

mikey k said:

My roadster has the sports pack on it, AFAIK the differences are;
lighter alloys
lighter & different Bilstein dampers and springs
stiffer rear ARB (coupe only)
No difference to ride height
No difference on geometry

It may not sound alot but it makes a big difference on the road

2nd everything you say here....

Sorry if you have done this elsewhere, can you give an outline of your pre / post experience.
What were your reasons for change? did the kit fulfill your demands? is there anything beyond sports pack you still wish for?

ta...

[stanwan]

BamfordMike said:

Hi.

Firstly the easy question – Yes, the elements of Bamford Rose performance kit transfer to all derivatives. So whether 4.3L or 4.7L the gain is 39BHP, but as you identify, because the ‘S’ has sports air intake system as standard, the gain from the kit reduces by 10 to 29BHP - Not forgetting a glorious / throaty exhaust note too…!

Most people have a personal view regarding the benefits and drawbacks of the Vantages ASM system, so you really need to test-drive to find out yours. Mine would be the low speed driveabilty / low speed manoeuvring niggles (mostly impossible to drive around) that the system exhibits, offset against supremely fast and effortless shifting when high speed / spirited / track driving.

Is the ‘S’ game-changing? Game-changing in my book would have been a DSG version gearbox (as seen in Skoda’s and Seat’s) and at least 100BHP per litre engine performance, but as an overall package the ‘S’ is certainly a great sports car (steering, suspension and braking system updates over normal Vantage).

ASM systems will probably always come with 'niggles', and in my opinion the same niggles which were present since the Vantage was first fitted with ASM still exist, to a greater or lesser extent. Some niggles have been overcome but is the side effect better than the cure (creep Vs no creep)?? I can't answer these questions because they are down to each owners personal preference / like or dislike. My advice - test drive it and if you are really sold on the rest of the car, to the point of trading-up, this (Vantage ‘S’) is as good as it will get for the foreseeable. Meaning there is nothing on the cards to either patiently wait for or (beyond normal depreciation) nothing new to de-value the car should you buy it and change your mind and want to sell in the medium term.

I think that as stocks of the current production (non ‘S’) are sold the ‘S’ will become the only variant offered for sale.

Any further questions please don’t hesitate to ask…

Hi mike,

Some of your thoughts echo my own... I ordered my 2007 v8 before any performance stats were released. I was hoping for a 100 bhp/litre engine and sub 1500kg weight all-in. I didn't feel overly shortchanged by the official stats, it does make me wonder, if given free-reign and more funds, what your team could have accomplished...

I was a driving a humble, but modified, civic type-r at the time so I would have forgiven any flaws!! What did surprise me is how the v8 felt a little leaden and unresponsive compared to my little 2 litre K20 engine: After modifying intakes, plenums, cams, valves, manifolds, exhausts it buzzed and fizzed like an angry hornet!!

Which leads me to my final question. Given a cost no object approach, how would you have liked to design the vantages 4.3/4.7 v8 engine. We're talking esoteric stuff here like unobtanium con-rods, ITBs, variable valve lift, more agressive cams etc...

I look forward to your response.