Aston Martin advice from Bamford Rose independent specialist

[CraigV12V]

Hey Mike, just a quick line to share with you my experience this weekend.

Out for a drive in the V12VSR and enjoying the sun and suddenly whilst going a round a roundabout in no particular hurry there is a drop off in power and within a few hundred yards, speed drops off further, runs rough, rattly noise coming from engine bay and engine stalls. It would start but clearly it needed to be switched off and home she went on back of a recovery vehicle.

Car went back to Aston and they tell me the following; "both cats have broken up and maybe damaged the engine, Aston Martin have asked dealership to do some compressions and cylinder checks. Worst case scenario we have to replace the engine we are looking about two weeks, they have good stock at the factory".

Car has done 4k of miles, only 1,000 in my hands (3,000 as dealer demo) and both cats have gone?

I mention this as you have talked before about engines ingesting cat materials and that being terminal for the engine.

Am I just unlucky with both cats going this soon? Any idea why? Any advise?

Edited by CraigV12V on Thursday 14th April 14:47

[Zod]

Ex Boy Racer said:

So who actually puts the dear stuff in their car?

I do. None of us knows and the price difference is negligible.

[BamfordMike]

CraigV12V said:

Hey Mike, just a quick line to share with you my experience this weekend.

Out for a drive in the V12VSR and enjoying the sun and suddenly whilst going a round a roundabout in no particular hurry there is a drop off in power and within a few hundred yards, speed drops off further, runs rough, rattly noise coming from engine bay and engine stalls. It would start but clearly it needed to be switched off and home she went on back of a recovery vehicle.

Car went back to Aston and they tell me the following; "both cats have broken up and maybe damaged the engine, Aston Martin have asked dealership to do some compressions and cylinder checks. Worst case scenario we have to replace the engine we are looking about two weeks, they have good stock at the factory".

Car has done 4k of miles, only 1,000 in my hands (3,000 as dealer demo) and both cats have gone?

I mention this as you have talked before about engines ingesting cat materials and that being terminal for the engine.

Am I just unlucky with both cats going this soon? Any idea why? Any advise?

Edited by CraigV12V on Wednesday 13th April 15:35

Edited by CraigV12V on Wednesday 13th April 15:50

Darn Craig, what bad luck! Sorry for you!

This sounds really strange and not a common / normally seen problem on that level car IME.

Firstly, anyone who knows, should really know that if the primary cats have failed its game over for the engine, imho. Even if the engine 'passes' a comp and leak check, its the damage about to be caused by debris present which would present as a problem in the future from the deposits of the ceramic debris which is in the oil system and behind the piston rings.

Strange because cats just don't go bang in the moment, its a lot longer and there being some symptom such as coil related misfire, which presents an error state that erodes cat to point of failure, but over time. But no previous symptoms and an immediate cat failure during low speed load driving - that's both strange and curious! which can only really occur if there was a significant excess of fuel.

Momentary significant excess of fuel sounds very similar, although it cant be because that lesson was learnt years ago?? (JohnG1 knows this well!), as being the famous purge canister problem. Where drive around a round-a-bout with full tank of fuel, the fuel level blocks off the purge / air valve due to slosh which causes neat fuel to go in the purge line (instead of vapour) which then went straight into cylinder, but because there was an excess of fuel, it didn't get combusted as normal and then went straight onto cat face, exploding, taking out the cat. The symptoms of which were, exactly as you state now. The tell-tale sign of this is pull off purge pipe and if there is a dribble of fuel, that's the problem.

Either way, i would be happy the experts can fix under warranty without hassle, but if it were my car i wouldn't want the same engine back if a cat had failed because the extent of debris ingested is unknown, so is whether the debris is hidden within the engine internals which despite whatever health checks might suggest engine is fine, those tests can not confirm if any debris is internally present because there is no kit that can look into / behind the places of concern, you only find this out either in many miles time when the wear state starts to show symptoms, or the engine is stripped and closely inspected.

Hope this gets sorted for you, at least you will have the courtesy car until yours is back!

[CraigV12V]

BamfordMike said:

Hope this gets sorted for you, at least you will have the courtesy car until yours is back!

I asked if courtesy car was an Aston and answer was no so I declined as I have plenty of other DD cars lying around. They missed a chance to lend me a Vanquish or DB11 maybe to try and upsell me.

Tank was probably circa half full.

Dealer is indicating that its a complete new engine not old one worked over.

I'll let you know how I get on.

[AMDBSTony]

Mike

If the exhaust manifolds were replaced for the nice swirly ones with no cats anywhere near the engine, would this represent a sound modification for this cat ingestion problem? I dont think it would represent any MOT issues as lets face it, your average MOT'er hasnt a clue what OEM look like and would probably be quite shocked if he saw an original manifold!

originals look sooo crude!

I only have a warranty on mine to cover the engine as i have heard of this issue too many times......my mates recently ingesting its cats being quite scary.

Trying to determine whether i go for this modification and ditch the warranty?

Any thoughts or advice greatly received.

Ps - not advocating using any particular brand, photo purely for illustrative purposes only

[J12KJR]

Ex Boy Racer said:

So who actually puts the dear stuff in their car?

I must admit I do. I read an article in EVO some years back where they took a Golf GTI from memory and ran it on a few different fuels.
Before using the Shell V Power they stripped the engine down and photographed the parts and subsequently did the same after it had run on the V Power for a period. The internals of the engine were noticeably cleaner after using the V Power than before.
Rightly or wrongly I work on the fact that whilst I won't gain any advantage in horse power using V Power the cleaner engine as a result should stay healthy for longer.

[Ken Figenus]

I tried to park my cynicism and dig deeper. I found: "Esso Synergy Supreme+ Unleaded petrol has a double detergent rate, when compared to Esso Synergy Unleaded, to help clean petrol engine intake valves.

Sounds good. So I dug deeper still trying to find the octane rating. I couldn't . But I was told the super fuel was "Engineered by the team that also fuels the McLaren Honda Formula 1 team". Comforting.

It was also good to know "Tests have shown that regular use of our Esso Synergy Supreme+ Unleaded Petrol helps you get better engine performance." But I could find no detail at all on these tests or how thy were done and on what. Could find no tables, stats or graphs on these hard won tests either.

I then find this series of once high res but by now grotty videos that explains how molecules are cleverly wrapped in marketing guff. The 4th is my favourite! http://www.esso.co.uk/petrol-engine.

I think their streaming machine needs some detergent and the marketing intern could do with a rinse!

[whoami]

Ken Figenus said:

I tried to park my cynicism and dig deeper. I found: "Esso Synergy Supreme+ Unleaded petrol has a double detergent rate, when compared to Esso Synergy Unleaded, to help clean petrol engine intake valves.

Sounds good. So I dug deeper still trying to find the octane rating. I couldn't . But I was told the super fuel was "Engineered by the team that also fuels the McLaren Honda Formula 1 team". Comforting.

It was also good to know "Tests have shown that regular use of our Esso Synergy Supreme+ Unleaded Petrol helps you get better engine performance." But I could find no detail at all on these tests or how thy were done and on what. Could find no tables, stats or graphs on these hard won tests either.

I then find this series of once high res but by now grotty videos that explains how molecules are cleverly wrapped in marketing guff. The 4th is my favourite! http://www.esso.co.uk/petrol-engine.

I think their streaming machine needs some detergent and the marketing intern could do with a rinse!

97 Octane (from the Esso website).

[J12KJR]

Craig sorry to read your news, hope they get a new engine into your car quickly and that they come to their senses in offering a loan Aston Martin as a gesture of good will. Doesn't really cost them much and does help a customer remain brand loyal when things aren't going well.

[Ken Figenus]

whoami said:

97 Octane (from the Esso website).

You dug deeper - I expected it to be headline news here http://www.esso.co.uk/synergy-supreme-fuels

[whoami]

Ken Figenus said:

whoami said:

97 Octane (from the Esso website).

You dug deeper - I expected it to be headline news here http://www.esso.co.uk/synergy-supreme-fuels

It's here: http://www.esso.co.uk/petrol

[Mr.Tremlini]

J12KJR said:

Ex Boy Racer said:

So who actually puts the dear stuff in their car?

I must admit I do. I read an article in EVO some years back where they took a Golf GTI from memory and ran it on a few different fuels.
Before using the Shell V Power they stripped the engine down and photographed the parts and subsequently did the same after it had run on the V Power for a period. The internals of the engine were noticeably cleaner after using the V Power than before.
Rightly or wrongly I work on the fact that whilst I won't gain any advantage in horse power using V Power the cleaner engine as a result should stay healthy for longer.

Good to read those "facts" Kevin. I am putting V Power in every time for similar reasons to you. I figure I didn`t scrimp on the car, why scrimp on the fuel?

[BamfordMike]

AMDBSTony said:

Mike

If the exhaust manifolds were replaced for the nice swirly ones with no cats anywhere near the engine, would this represent a sound modification for this cat ingestion problem? I dont think it would represent any MOT issues as lets face it, your average MOT'er hasnt a clue what OEM look like and would probably be quite shocked if he saw an original manifold!

originals look sooo crude!

I only have a warranty on mine to cover the engine as i have heard of this issue too many times......my mates recently ingesting its cats being quite scary.

Trying to determine whether i go for this modification and ditch the warranty?

Any thoughts or advice greatly received.

Ps - not advocating using any particular brand, photo purely for illustrative purposes only

Indeed and god damn, god damn, that's a mighty crude picture, time to restore finesse and elegance!






Manifolds are indeed intriguing things, i find these interesting, if anyone wanted to chime in to explain tangible stuff to me, that would be great!










Cat ingestion and ensuing engine failure is indeed becoming a real problem we see in our workshop with alarming frequency, and yes, i have had the conversation with many owners and we have performed preventative maintenance removal of the cat to prevent from the scenario where the cat failing risks a £15-£20k engine rebuild and refit - Imagine if you were unlucky enough to be in Craig's unfortunate position but without warranty and its down to the owner to recover the failed engine or park the car up because funds didn't allow a rebuild, which i have seen happen too!

But, instead of buying a beautifully designed and manufactured manifold which sole purpose was really a 'Lance' spec power upgrade, if you were just wanting to prevent failed engine from cat ingestion, well, why not just remove the std manifolds and decat them and refit them? that way there is no hardware spend its just labour and an ECU reflash which is teeny-tiny fraction of an engine rebuild cost.

Every engine rebuild customer requests just this when their newly rebuilt engine goes in post 'ingestion'. The reason for most cat ingestion engine failures is caused by the engine running for prolonged time with coil related misfire, the owner not being alerted to it by his feel of how the car drives (sometimes can be totally undetectable) or the OBD system pinging any dashboard misfire warning light. This scenario causes frustration beyond what i can describe, because, there was nothing the owner could have done to detect the problem, the electronic systems didn't either, meaning nothing whatsoever could have been done to detect and prevent catastrophe even if the owner was informed on the subject and looking out for misfire. Both they and I if it happened to me, after recovering what should have been a perfectly healthy engine for the sum of £15-£20k rebuild, would leave a bad taste to point of questioning whether to continue with the brand.

As we know, to sell the car (pass legislation) originally, the maker had to pass emissions tests, but the primary cat on its own (without any emissions reduction help from secondary cat) is all that is needed for cold start and accelerations / driving the 'hills' on the test. The secondary cat is only needed for a)the last long hill on the emissions drive cycle (approx. 1 minute of the 21 minute test) and b)deterioration factors (as the primary cats age and convert less pollutant into harmless gasses, the secondary cat is needed as a helper to the primary to achieve the end reduction needed overall to maintain conversion within the prescribed deterioration limits).
But in the owners hands, all that needs to happen is the car has to pass MOT, and the secondary cat alone is more than sufficient to do that, without the primary cat being needed at all for MOT. This means that removal of the primary cat and and ECU reflash to prevent the emissions compliance light coming on the dash, is a wise prevention of catastrophe meaning no unnecessary engine rebuild.

The exhaust note will sound nice too, the power increases by about 30BHP and on throttle acceleration is much livlier / sharper. Win-win all round.

[AMDBSTony]

BamfordMike said:

Indeed and god damn, god damn, that's a mighty crude picture, time to restore finesse and elegance!






Manifolds are indeed intriguing things, i find these interesting, if anyone wanted to chime in to explain tangible stuff to me, that would be great!










Cat ingestion and ensuing engine failure is indeed becoming a real problem we see in our workshop with alarming frequency, and yes, i have had the conversation with many owners and we have performed preventative maintenance removal of the cat to prevent from the scenario where the cat failing risks a £15-£20k engine rebuild and refit - Imagine if you were unlucky enough to be in Craig's unfortunate position but without warranty and its down to the owner to recover the failed engine or park the car up because funds didn't allow a rebuild, which i have seen happen too!

But, instead of buying a beautifully designed and manufactured manifold which sole purpose was really a 'Lance' spec power upgrade, if you were just wanting to prevent failed engine from cat ingestion, well, why not just remove the std manifolds and decat them and refit them? that way there is no hardware spend its just labour and an ECU reflash which is teeny-tiny fraction of an engine rebuild cost.

Every engine rebuild customer requests just this when their newly rebuilt engine goes in post 'ingestion'. The reason for most cat ingestion engine failures is caused by the engine running for prolonged time with coil related misfire, the owner not being alerted to it by his feel of how the car drives (sometimes can be totally undetectable) or the OBD system pinging any dashboard misfire warning light. This scenario causes frustration beyond what i can describe, because, there was nothing the owner could have done to detect the problem, the electronic systems didn't either, meaning nothing whatsoever could have been done to detect and prevent catastrophe even if the owner was informed on the subject and looking out for misfire. Both they and I if it happened to me, after recovering what should have been a perfectly healthy engine for the sum of £15-£20k rebuild, would leave a bad taste to point of questioning whether to continue with the brand.

As we know, to sell the car (pass legislation) originally, the maker had to pass emissions tests, but the primary cat on its own (without any emissions reduction help from secondary cat) is all that is needed for cold start and accelerations / driving the 'hills' on the test. The secondary cat is only needed for a)the last long hill on the emissions drive cycle (approx. 1 minute of the 21 minute test) and b)deterioration factors (as the primary cats age and convert less pollutant into harmless gasses, the secondary cat is needed as a helper to the primary to achieve the end reduction needed overall to maintain conversion within the prescribed deterioration limits).
But in the owners hands, all that needs to happen is the car has to pass MOT, and the secondary cat alone is more than sufficient to do that, without the primary cat being needed at all for MOT. This means that removal of the primary cat and and ECU reflash to prevent the emissions compliance light coming on the dash, is a wise prevention of catastrophe meaning no unnecessary engine rebuild.

The exhaust note will sound nice too, the power increases by about 30BHP and on throttle acceleration is much livlier / sharper. Win-win all round.

Mike

Those look nice!

Dont fancy the cats removing from the restrictive manifolds, if i am going to decat i would like something proper like the ones you show.

Maybe we can have a chat at Burghley?

[CraigV12V]

So Mike, the logical thing to do is get a different exhaust fitted when they replace engine, one you describe without primary cats. I guess I have a snowball in hell's chance of getting a dealer to do this and not have my warranty invalidated.

What would costs be of exhaust system only, which in an alternative universe I managed to get a dealer to fit foc when replacing the engine?

Joking apart, with this cat ingesting seemingly now being a common problem it's the only preventative solution,isn't it?

[Navyatco]

And who does/where can you get the ECU reflashed?

[CSK1]

Sorry to hear of your troubles Craig. Best solution is the one you are advising then Mike but problem is for cars that are still under warranty like ours. I don't think dealers will be willing to decat so we have to wait the car is out of warranty to do this by which time the engine will already have blown up!

[Ken Figenus]

Nightmare for you Craig - hopefully they will have engines on the shelf for a quick swop .

Mike how does the exhaust side 'suck in' these broken parts? Is there a slight backflow/overlap as the inlet valve opens? V curious!

[Speedraser]

Does the NP Vanquish have this issue also?

[pete1212]

Does this can happen with a rapide too?