Aston Martin advice from Bamford Rose independent specialist
Discussion
rmrmd1956 said:
Can you explained the V8 Vantage knock strategy to me? I see all the signal to noise tables for each cylinder but I do not see the advanced and retard limits or the slow and fast advance rates in 3-D or 2-D tables. All other EEC6 EEPROMs have 3-D tables for maximum advance and maximum retard for load versus RPM and 2-D tables for slow and fast advance rates. Aston Martin appears to have a unique strategy
Indeed, the KNK strategy is unique, the generic Ford KNK strategy was dropped for a copy / paste of a 'mainstream' strategy bought in from 'another' supplier.Its easier if you tell me what you want to achieve or what your problem is rather than me explain how the system works generally.
I can guess you might wish to re-centre the 3d gain maps for each individual cylinder if the bolting on of pressure charger introduces noise which knk sensor thinks is a KNK event in error and retards spk when it shouldn't. The noise value (NL_xx) should always be around 1 for each cylinder.
The advance limit is not administered by KNK strategy but is calculated from the resultant of basic spark strategy, KNK control retards from that setpoint and returns spark back to that advance should there be no further KNK events. There is a separate fast correction and slow correction limit but it is a constant not a map. The magnitude of either fast or slow correction depends on the engine speed / load for a given voltage from the KNK sensor (KNKS_xx) and that is a conventional 3dMap.
Be careful about changing any values though. Excuse the pun but there will be a knock on effect if parameters are changed for no good reason or wrong reasons. The fast correction / slow correction retard amounts and durations are all interlinked setpoints / responses.
robgt said:
Equally pleased with my little baby, Thanks BR. I have heard a whisper that we can expect air box mods to be available in the near future which apparently will release another 25 to 30 BHP. I think that it would be right and proper to go down that road as well. I would be getting close to that 500 BHP figure.
Don't tell Molly!
I can keep mum Rob, but to do so a little trade is in order.... Mr debonair, i have my eye on that wonderful red bow tie you were fashioning so well..... although me thinks you will still have to keep Molly busy Don't tell Molly!
in the early hours when those dear tracker folks have nothing better to do robgt said:
I have heard a whisper that we can expect air box mods to be available in the near future which apparently will release another 25 to 30 BHP. I think that it would be right and proper to go down that road as well. I would be getting close to that 500 BHP figure.
You hear correctly old bean, those whispers do seem to get around don't they.....!But not air box, the inlet manifold itself.....!
As we know from such projects as 'Jessica' and 'Diablo Blanco', we take a 4.3L at 380 BHP and increase displacement to 4.7L, and together with BR GT4 engine blueprinting and porting and the BR exhaust manifolds and catalysts, approx 475BHP is released taking 0-60MPH down to around 4.05 seconds from the starting point of around 5.2ish seconds.
This spec has been used in many N24 racing cars and the result is inevitable, those cars with BR 'not included' populate the back of the grid. After seeing the BR prepared Mathol Racing V8 N24 Vantage finish ahead of all 4 factory entered V12 Vantages during the 2012 Nurburgring N24 hour race, other Motorsport teams want a piece of the BR magic.
So, we were approached to put together a spec possible of a top ten Nurburgring finish. The starting point was the 475BHP spec and that was built upon with the addition of yet more displacement (starting with a 5....) and during research we found that the inlet manifold fitted to 4.3L V8 and 4.7L V8 road cars is restrictive to the tune of around 20BHP....! During this study BR conducted we designed a twin throttle inlet manifold for the V8 engine to relieve the loss of that standard part.
The findings don't stop there.... we also found the dry sump system was approx. 15BHP restrictive and we researched a way to relieve these losses too with a new design.
Two engines are currently in build at this moment to include these additions.
Here is a performance walk from 4.3L to BR 4.7L including BR exhaust systems for each engine culminating in the 5L monster...
4.3L Vantage from factory
Peak torque: 410NM
Peak Power: 380BHP
4.3L Vantage with BR exhaust manifolds and catalysts
Peak torque: 445NM
Peak Power: 420BHP
4.7L Vantage from factory
Peak torque: 470NM
Peak Power: 420BHP
4.7L Vantage with BR exhaust manifolds and catalysts
Peak torque: 490NM
Peak Power: 455BHP
4.7L Vantage with BR GT4 Racing engine build and BR exhaust manifolds and catalysts
Peak torque: 525NM
Peak Power: 475BHP
Drum Role.......
5.0L BRVantageS (BR GT4 Racing engine build with BR exhaust manifolds and catalysts)
Peak torque: 550NM
Peak Power: 540BHP
The twin throttle inlet manifold will make an excellent addition to the BR exhaust manifolds and catalysts for any specification V8 engine, so yes ROB - your mean machine will love it. But do you really have to keep it quiet from Molly, she seems to be enjoying the new lease of life your S has just as much as you
Edited by BamfordMike on Wednesday 31st October 00:09
BamfordMike said:
Indeed, the KNK strategy is unique, the generic Ford KNK strategy was dropped for a copy / paste of a 'mainstream' strategy bought in from 'another' supplier.
Its easier if you tell me what you want to achieve or what your problem is rather than me explain how the system works generally.
I can guess you might wish to re-centre the 3d gain maps for each individual cylinder if the bolting on of pressure charger introduces noise which knk sensor thinks is a KNK event in error and retards spk when it shouldn't. The noise value (NL_xx) should always be around 1 for each cylinder.
The advance limit is not administered by KNK strategy but is calculated from the resultant of basic spark strategy, KNK control retards from that setpoint and returns spark back to that advance should there be no further KNK events. There is a separate fast correction and slow correction limit but it is a constant not a map. The magnitude of either fast or slow correction depends on the engine speed / load for a given voltage from the KNK sensor (KNKS_xx) and that is a conventional 3dMap.
Be careful about changing any values though. Excuse the pun but there will be a knock on effect if parameters are changed for no good reason or wrong reasons. The fast correction / slow correction retard amounts and durations are all interlinked setpoints / responses.
Great info, thanks. As you know, my car has FI. I'm running bigger injectors and fuel pump. All mods are now done inside the AM PCM. I am calibrating spark. I know the MBT and borderline knock tables. I know the spark modifiers and multipliers for IAT, ECT and VCT. I have datalogs of spark and have used this to reduced borderline spark advance with high load. I want to make sure that my car is not at the knock retard limit and that the AM knock strategy still has a good range. Really looking for max retard amounts via knock. I've attached a table that I think I have previously mislabeled. Is this in fact the max spark retard for load vs RPM??
Its easier if you tell me what you want to achieve or what your problem is rather than me explain how the system works generally.
I can guess you might wish to re-centre the 3d gain maps for each individual cylinder if the bolting on of pressure charger introduces noise which knk sensor thinks is a KNK event in error and retards spk when it shouldn't. The noise value (NL_xx) should always be around 1 for each cylinder.
The advance limit is not administered by KNK strategy but is calculated from the resultant of basic spark strategy, KNK control retards from that setpoint and returns spark back to that advance should there be no further KNK events. There is a separate fast correction and slow correction limit but it is a constant not a map. The magnitude of either fast or slow correction depends on the engine speed / load for a given voltage from the KNK sensor (KNKS_xx) and that is a conventional 3dMap.
Be careful about changing any values though. Excuse the pun but there will be a knock on effect if parameters are changed for no good reason or wrong reasons. The fast correction / slow correction retard amounts and durations are all interlinked setpoints / responses.
Great info, thanks. As you know, my car has FI. I'm running bigger injectors and fuel pump. All mods are now done inside the AM PCM. I am calibrating spark. I know the MBT and borderline knock tables. I know the spark modifiers and multipliers for IAT, ECT and VCT. I have datalogs of spark and have used this to reduced borderline spark advance with high load. I want to make sure that my car is not at the knock retard limit and that the AM knock strategy still has a good range. Really looking for max retard amounts via knock. I've attached a table that I think I have previously mislabeled. Is this in fact the max spark retard for load vs RPM??
BamfordMike said:
5.0L BRVantageS (BR GT4 Racing engine build with BR exhaust manifolds and catalysts)
Peak torque: 550NM
Peak Power: 540BHP
Memo to doctor......Peak torque: 550NM
Peak Power: 540BHP
A certain young lady in your current care will not under any circumstances be leaving your facilities as an inferior patient to a crummy V8.
If it does
Doctor to try harder
Edited by Guycord on Wednesday 31st October 14:11
Bloody Hell ! Mike I am so excited that I have failed to read this all properly. All I have in my head is 550 BHP and the same NM's. Guess my warranty would be blown. (only joking). What other upgrades would my car need? Is the engine strong enough to take that huge increase? Please either call or e.mail me with a guessimate of proposed cost. If I was to go down this road my S would become a keeper as there would not be a reason to ever change it.
BamfordMike said:
...during research we found that the inlet manifold fitted to 4.3L V8 and 4.7L V8 road cars is restrictive to the tune of around 20BHP....! During this study BR conducted we designed a twin throttle inlet manifold for the V8 engine to relieve the loss of that standard part.
The findings don't stop there.... we also found the dry sump system was approx. 15BHP restrictive and we researched a way to relieve these losses too with a new design.
5.0L BRVantageS (BR GT4 Racing engine build with BR exhaust manifolds and catalysts)
Peak torque: 550NM
Peak Power: 540BHP
The twin throttle inlet manifold will make an excellent addition to the BR exhaust manifolds and catalysts for any specification V8 engine
So If I have read this right there is the potential to take the standard 4.7 engine that already has the BR exhaust manifolds and cats up to 490bhp without major internal work. But then the magic of a full 5.0L BR GT4 Racing engine build will take it all the way to 540bhp. Pretty much up there with Lance, but with a leaner meaner fighting machine of a V8.The findings don't stop there.... we also found the dry sump system was approx. 15BHP restrictive and we researched a way to relieve these losses too with a new design.
5.0L BRVantageS (BR GT4 Racing engine build with BR exhaust manifolds and catalysts)
Peak torque: 550NM
Peak Power: 540BHP
The twin throttle inlet manifold will make an excellent addition to the BR exhaust manifolds and catalysts for any specification V8 engine
Edited by BamfordMike on Wednesday 31st October 00:09
Maybe we will have to have a chat when I bring my car in for it's phase 1 development work, as to what the phase 2 work may entail. I guess one would need to consider a brake upgrade with anything above 475 bhp.
rmrmd1956 said:
Hope this info helps you out
Guycord said:
Memo to doctor......
A certain young lady in your current care will not under any circumstances be leaving your facilities as an inferior patient to a crummy V8.
If it does
Doctor to try harder
Don't fret Guy, those 600+Newtons and 'Lance' power minus around 15BHP means your lady will leave packing a serious punch.....!A certain young lady in your current care will not under any circumstances be leaving your facilities as an inferior patient to a crummy V8.
If it does
Doctor to try harder
Edited by Guycord on Wednesday 31st October 14:11
Don't forget the V8 is having extensive open heart surgery to return those gains. You are in for Botox++ and a boob job
. but if you want a more serious treatment that can be arranged too robgt said:
Bloody Hell ! Mike I am so excited that I have failed to read this all properly. All I have in my head is 550 BHP and the same NM's. Guess my warranty would be blown. (only joking). What other upgrades would my car need? Is the engine strong enough to take that huge increase? Please either call or e.mail me with a guessimate of proposed cost. If I was to go down this road my S would become a keeper as there would not be a reason to ever change it.
Hi there Rob.The engine internals (cylinder liners, crankshaft, pistons, rods and valvetrain) are all be bespoke, the best money can buy, but durability is going to be fully proven in anycase. There is the possibility for us to provide a donor engine meaning the original engine could be kept as spare, but that will increase cost on an upgrade which will already, due to nature of what is being repaced, be very expensive.
There is a forum member toying with the idea of being the first taker of this spec, but if there were a number it would reduce the price as we could build a batch and drive down price of parts.
On a Vantage S we would retro fit the gearbox oil pump and cooler matrix which were thrifted and return driveshafts to more durable build too, apart from that the car will take this in its stride. Don't forget much of V12V components come from base V8
Quite exciting times because in the engine buildshop right now is a 6.5L V12 project for dear lewis, and the first 5L V8 block.
GlynV8 said:
So If I have read this right there is the potential to take the standard 4.7 engine that already has the BR exhaust manifolds and cats up to 490bhp without major internal work. But then the magic of a full 5.0L BR GT4 Racing engine build will take it all the way to 540bhp. Pretty much up there with Lance, but with a leaner meaner fighting machine of a V8.
Maybe we will have to have a chat when I bring my car in for it's phase 1 development work, as to what the phase 2 work may entail. I guess one would need to consider a brake upgrade with anything above 475 bhp.
Hi Glyn.Maybe we will have to have a chat when I bring my car in for it's phase 1 development work, as to what the phase 2 work may entail. I guess one would need to consider a brake upgrade with anything above 475 bhp.
4.7L Vantage from factory
Peak torque: 470NM
Peak Power: 420BHP
4.7L Vantage with BR exhaust manifolds and catalysts
Peak torque: 490NM
Peak Power: 455BHP
4.7L Vantage with BR GT4 Racing engine build and BR exhaust manifolds and catalysts
Peak torque: 525NM
Peak Power: 475BHP
The 'bolt-on' components of our exhaust and induction system returns 490NM/455BHP, the blueprinting and porting work we do (engine removal and strip) takes the power output on to 525NM/475BHP
See you soon!!
v8woollie said:
It would be interesting to know where the crossover in cost comes between taking a 4.3 up to 5.0 and trading in for a V12V occurs.
Take a 40k Vantage add 5L engine big brake kit (which we advise at power past 490NM/455BHP specification) switchable suspension, bigger rims / rubber, few carbon bits and a gear knob... And the all up price would still be less than V12V.Such economic reasoning is of course sensible, but the V12V and modified V8 will drive totally differently and for those who that is important for (and as I have this feedback from these owners), the cost differenece to V12V might not matter that much.
In creating 'Lance' and 'Jessica', both cars have similar 0-60 / 0-100, whilst I like both, each does have completely different driving behaviours that for each, some owners like and others don't.
bobcanada said:
Mike:
Am I correct in assuming you can punch out a 4.3 to 5.0 and achieve 520 BHP? Or do you start with the 4.7? For those of us in North America, is it possible to ship our 4.3 in a crate to BR and receive a 5.0 with 520 BHP in a much better crate?
We remove the liners from the block to create our displacement change, so starting from a 4.3L or 4.7L is ok. We ship crate engines across the globe for racing cars already and we can create the crate engine from one of our donors if needed, so there wouldn't be the need to ship a donor to us and have the car off the road for a long time whilst we performed the conversion and return. The other benefit of this, not that I foresee needing it, is the original engine can be kept as spare.Am I correct in assuming you can punch out a 4.3 to 5.0 and achieve 520 BHP? Or do you start with the 4.7? For those of us in North America, is it possible to ship our 4.3 in a crate to BR and receive a 5.0 with 520 BHP in a much better crate?
A kit we would ship for std 4.3L car would be engine, exhaust manifolds and cats, induction system and big brake kit. For such a project we would sign-off the final installation before the car goes out on the road.
BamfordMike said:
Quite exciting times because in the engine buildshop right now is a 6.5L V12 project for dear lewis.
I am REALLY looking forward to that, was great to see Bruce and catch up at Trinity. Some cocker-neee fella having the most powerful Aston out there... well it's just not right. Aston Martin make gentleman's expresses, not getaway vehicles.What are the chances of having my new racing gearbox and the 6.5 monster in the car by April, in time for the Swiss run? Icy mountain roads and a 650bhp car, what could possibly go wrong?
Edited by yeti on Thursday 1st November 14:08
yeti said:
I am REALLY looking forward to that, was great to see Bruce and catch up at Trinity. Some cocker-neee fella having the most powerful Aston out there... well it's just not right. Aston Martin make genteleman's expresses, not getaway vehicles.. I will be content with the miserable 565BHP and rely on my pedalling power to make up the rest. Now off to do a blag.Gassing Station | Aston Martin | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff