Aston Martin advice from Bamford Rose independent specialist

[BamfordMike]

rmrmd1956 said:

Great info. Thats about what I thought. Failure rate seems to be about 10% per 10K mile (personal knowledge). This is acceptable to me because of the immense increase in power but of course would be completely unacceptable for OEM. Our gas is AKI not RON so that 93 US AKI = 98 RON. I run 105 RON when I drive hard.
The huge safety margin dialed into modern engine production is the only reason we can "get away with this". My hat is off to Aston Martin, they have built a strong engine!

And the hat needs to be taken off to you also... it surely must have been a tough job to get to where you are today with your project.

Nice dataset, and I can see where you come from re your own personal rationale about failure rates.

Supercharger option identifies an upgrade / model line, that if the factory would have taken on-board, would have resulted in one of the finest sportscars in the world today, that would be flying off the production-line in vast numbers. Instead of the current situation, that being the Vantage languishing somewhat in decline being spruced up with superficial paint and interior options instead of substantial engineering rework to keep the car not just abreast but exceed the competition....

What is the most frequent mode of failure you experience? I have a range of engine parts of significantly higher quality than OE that might be of interest to you??

Mike.

[rmrmd1956]

BamfordMike said:

And the hat needs to be taken off to you also... it surely must have been a tough job to get to where you are today with your project.

Nice dataset, and I can see where you come from re your own personal rationale about failure rates.

Supercharger option identifies an upgrade / model line, that if the factory would have taken on-board, would have resulted in one of the finest sportscars in the world today, that would be flying off the production-line in vast numbers. Instead of the current situation, that being the Vantage languishing somewhat in decline being spruced up with superficial paint and interior options instead of substantial engineering rework to keep the car not just abreast but exceed the competition....

What is the most frequent mode of failure you experience? I have a range of engine parts of significantly higher quality than OE that might be of interest to you??

Mike.

Piston ring land failure. In the above case, lack of intercooler fluid, plugged cat(stock ceramic) and 91 AKI california gas contributed.

Note: this is not my car.

[BamfordMike]

Caribe00 said:

Question for you, Mike.

With the introduction of the Vantage S, is the different kit a significant upgrade, and is it worth the money? Better off getting a new V8V and modding?

Is the new SportShiftII a significant upgrade, or can a remap of the V8V SportShift accomplish the same thing?

Thanks for your answer.

mikey k said:

I was contemplating this question yesterday.
Two things not so obvious from the S info;
1) Decent jump in power to weight as there is a decent weight reduction
2) Power losses through the 7 speed transmission are lower so whilst it is only 10 BHP more at the flywheel this is going to be more like 20-25 bhp at the wheels
I would presume adding sports cats, header and intakes would net another gain but I'm sure Mike will tell us how much

Very interesting questions

The Vantage S weight reduction, slight increase in engine power, more gears and different differential ratio transforms the Vantage in an effective but very simple way. Short answer is Yes, it is possible not to simply achieve the same end result but far exceed performance of the 'S' by modification of current level Vantage.

If a customer is looking to enter the brand / Vantage via new car route, the decision making process will no-doubt be along the lines of how the brand / Vantage S compares with competitors, and require decisions of both the heart and of the mind. For an existing Vantage owner wishing for ‘more’ from their current Vantage, then you have identified a good question; Do I spend a significant sum to upgrade (purchase price of car - depreciation + cost to trade-up), and is that spend really worth the improvement offered by the ‘S’ against current car – Or another option, can I spend a significantly smaller sum (when compared to the costs of trading up) on my existing car and create something considerably better than the new ‘S’.

The induction system of the ‘S’ has relieved the majority of the restrictive induction system losses by having the AM power flap valves, so in reality, there is no benefit to be had by further modifying the induction system. The engine is 430 BHP (10 BHP more than old 4.7L) due to this modification (see my outline of induction system losses in previous post). This means that the Bamford Rose / Quicksilver headers, sports catalysts and silencer system will return an additional 29BHP (430 to 459BHP), just in the same way a current 4.7L car could be taken to 459 BHP (420 BHP + Sports silencer 3.5BHP, + sports catalysts 10.5BHP, + headers 15BHP and + sports air intake 10BHP = 459BHP).

‘S’ Gearbox:
Firstly strategy; a stick in the centre console is seen as being antiquated by the ‘experts’. A fine philosophy if the ASM system in-charge of selecting gears is as cutting edge as competitors and all customers share this same perspective, ‘woops’ if it isn’t / not all people think the same.
I’m in the ’woops’ camp, and for this reason Bamford Rose is preparing to offer the ‘upgrade’ of a stick for the Vantage ‘S’ for when these cars come out of warranty period.
Secondly performance; Vanquish to Vanquish S is an engine BHP improvement, but the biggest improvement made to vehicle acceleration times comes from the change made to the differential ratio. It’s as simple as that for the Vantage ‘S’. So in answer to the direct question – will a remap of the existing transmission calibration deliver the same end result as ‘S’ – No. And my advice would be NEVER remap the transmission calibration with suppliers who advertise this service, there are so many dangerous pitfalls associated with this. Simple thing to do is drive the ASM, and it’s a bit like Marmite; if you don’t like its driveability / attributes (this is a very personal preference / opinion), buy a manual. The problem – Vanatge ‘S’ comes only in ASM flavour, so yes, a solution to not just achieve, but far exceed the same end result as the ‘S’ in terms of vehicle performance times would be to modify (correctly) your current level car.

There are some exterior / interior styling, braking and suspension system modifications which make the ‘S’ a special car too. For this reason Bamford Rose is preparing to release tasteful and subtle bodywork modifications to replicate the fresher look of the ‘S’ and is on the verge of revealing an exciting interior options list also. Although the ‘full works’ would look OTT on one car, Bamford Rose is on the verge of releasing a car showcasing the best of these modifications.

The jury will then ‘be out’ to decide how this comprehensive modifications list (exterior / interior / engine and dynamics) compares to the economics of trading up. But regarding performance, im sorry to say the standard Vantage ‘S’ will not stand a chance Vs a Bamford Rose modified car.

Mike.

Edited by BamfordMike on Saturday 16th April 18:41

Edited by BamfordMike on Saturday 16th April 18:43

[Caribe00]

"No. And my advice would be NEVER remap the transmission calibration with suppliers who advertise this service, there are so many dangerous pitfalls associated with this. Simple thing to do is drive the ASM, and it’s a bit like Marmite; if you don’t like its driveability / attributes (this is a very personal preference / opinion), buy a manual."

Mike

Thanks for the information on this. Now, to my situation specifically. I have not yet decided on a new SS or Manual but I thank you for talking me out of the V8V S. I am still trying to lock in color combos that work for me, and to this point, I have been gearbox-agnostic. When I started looking at the Vantage, and at the price point, I thought "Great, an auto box like Porsche, Ferrari". Not really. More like Porsche-lite. I plan to do the 4 upgrades on what will be a new MY 4.7, and would stay away from the SS if you feel that the technology is really not worth it; I am aware that there is a bit of lag with the system, but do not know if that is correctable. I have always been a stick guy to this point in my driving life.

For those of us across the pond who will not be able to benefit from having you fit the step 1-4 mod package on-site, are there shops that you will be able to recommend in the States? Will the overseas price reflect the lack of bespoke fitting?

Edited by Caribe00 on Saturday 16th April 21:17

[BamfordMike]

Caribe00 said:

"No. And my advice would be NEVER remap the transmission calibration with suppliers who advertise this service, there are so many dangerous pitfalls associated with this. Simple thing to do is drive the ASM, and it’s a bit like Marmite; if you don’t like its driveability / attributes (this is a very personal preference / opinion), buy a manual."

Mike

Thanks for the information on this. Now, to my situation specifically. I have not yet decided on a new SS or Manual but I thank you for talking me out of the V8V S. I am still trying to lock in color combos that work for me, and to this point, I have been gearbox-agnostic. When I started looking at the Vantage, and at the price point, I thought "Great, an auto box like Porsche, Ferrari". Not really. More like Porsche-lite. I plan to do the 4 upgrades on what will be a new MY 4.7, and would stay away from the SS if you feel that the technology is really not worth it; I am aware that there is a bit of lag with the system, but do not know if that is correctable. I have always been a stick guy to this point in my driving life.

For those of us across the pond who will not be able to benefit from having you fit the step 1-4 mod package on-site, are there shops that you will be able to recommend in the States? Will the overseas price reflect the lack of bespoke fitting?

Edited by Caribe00 on Saturday 16th April 21:17

Hi. Most manufactures that release ASM 'box have suffered both good and bad reviews in the press and owners forums. Try to get the car from dealer on a test drive and drive the car on your normal route to and from home to work, around town, try parking and moving in traffic jams. Then make your own mind up if the technology suits your needs. If it doesn't and you still want to enter the Aston Brand / Vantage then the previous level 4.7L manual is your next option. Crazy how by not offering a stick the manufacturer has presented a barrier to customers making a purchase...!

I am a stick man also, but I would not put anybody off the ASM as some rate it highly, it is very much down to personal preference. One comment that appears to be of general consensus is that around the race track the ASM / sports shift gives an advantage. This is because at speed, and say above 4000 rpm whilst toggling up and down the box, shift speed and quality is fantastic. The problems or driveability traits some people complain about with the ASM is in traffic, parking and low speed driving conditions.

The website link below is to Quicksilver, here can be found a few Quicksilver agents in the States, I plan to supply the Bamford Rose kit through them meaning the cost would not be prohibitive.

Good luck with whatever route to entering the brand you take.

http://www.quicksilverexhausts.com/ASTON%20MARTIN_...

http://www.quicksilverexhausts.com/story/QuickSilv...

[BamfordMike]

Stuart Dickinson said:

BamfordMike said:

So the Quicksilver exhaust by itself should make about 3-4BHP?

Hi.

Regarding the collaborative Bamford Rose / Quicksilver kit I will be quoting 3-4BHP for the silencer, yes.

If the customers desire is to just improve the exhaust note beyond what the legislator at point of sale 'denied', then make the change just for that reason only - its a good enough reason...!
What tends to happen is that aftermarket suppliers use a roaring exhaust note and the drivers increased perception of performance to make excessive BHP claims to bolster the reason to make purchase - but not here.

Mike.

[BamfordMike]

JohnG1 said:

Quick question about the windows in a V12 Vantage..
(very dull topic - sorry)

Once you pull out the ECU the windows can still be closed using the buttons for about 1 minute. Is there a way to modify that to say 2 or 3 minutes? I know this may sound dull but I have a very narrow garage and I need to have the window open to exit the car. Getting out in one minute can be a bit tricky...

Hi. I don't think that delay can be re-programmed simply by the user options on the display, however, I will check next time in shop and let you know if it can be done another way- Shame there isn't a 'lazy lock' feature on the fob, that would have cured your problem...!

[BamfordMike]

[quote=vince1972]

Mike
thank you for your response so complete.

In fact, the problem of wealth came from the sports catalysts that have been removed now because the car to a basic problem.

Currently, my Aston a reinforced clutch and a short bridge (not original Aston). I went to the dyno and power and found that the engine is 330 hp instead of 385 hp normally.

Like all items mentioned in my first message were controlled, have you any idea where the problem may come? Do some have a problem with Aston carthographie the original? Are there any things I should / can check?

Thank you very much for your help.

Vincent

Hi.

Ok, so you had sports cats fitted and had the problem of wealth / rich - too much fuel?
This probably caused a fault code saying lambda sensor stuck rich?
You then put catalysts back to standard and you have no fuel problem now?
You have no fault codes identified with diagnostic equipment but you put the car on the dyno and measured 330HP, is this flywheel power (calculated by dyno coast-down) or power at the wheels?

Can you feel loss of power when the car is being driven on the road? on road test how does the car compare to other V8's?

The on-board diagnostic system is very good at identifying any sort of problem, so a check of the fault codes normally tells you if something serious is at fault.
If the power loss is real have you done an engine cylinder compression and leakage check?
Do all Spark plugs look equal colour?

By reinforced clutch do you mean twin-plate, by short bridge do you mean light weight flywheel?

Mike

[BamfordMike]

rmrmd1956 said:

Piston ring land failure. In the above case, lack of intercooler fluid, plugged cat(stock ceramic) and 91 AKI california gas contributed.

Note: this is not my car.

I have just stopped cringing at the sight of the sintered rod - clearly not your doing..!


Do you think the low octane fuel and lack of combustion air cooling caused a detonation type over-pressure failure? and the clogged cat was an effect not cause? Or, could the cat have clogged (broken down / melted the ceramic matrix) due to the increased gas flow from FI to the point where the increased back-pressure caused the failure. I saw this phenomenon once before where the cat failed, the back pressure rose to over 90, from approx. 40 KPa and caused the rings to 'nip' as the lands deformed.
Is there any detonation nibbling on the crown? from the pic resolution I cant see, or is this failure an immediate reaction to over-pressure condition?

If I were you I would relocate the cat much further downstream, in the silencer like the motorsport world often does. All it has to do is reach conversion temp (approx 330 deg C) to pass garage checks.
Can you find a supplier of 89mm forged piston?
Can you fit fuel octane sensor in the line, link it into your jumper EMS to re-adjust spark to accommodate low octane?
Can you measure inlet air temp to adjust spark if combustion air temps rise over a predefined critical limit within the jumper ECU?

Mike.

Edited by BamfordMike on Sunday 17th April 01:32

[Stuart Dickinson]

BamfordMike said:

Hi.

Regarding the collaborative Bamford Rose / Quicksilver kit I will be quoting 3-4BHP for the silencer, yes.

That figure sounds right to me, just wondered because for several years Quicksilver was quoting 20BHP.

[rmrmd1956]

BamfordMike said:

I have just stopped cringing at the sight of the sintered rod - clearly not your doing..!


Do you think the low octane fuel and lack of combustion air cooling caused a detonation type over-pressure failure? and the clogged cat was an effect not cause? Or, could the cat have clogged (broken down / melted the ceramic matrix) due to the increased gas flow from FI to the point where the increased back-pressure caused the failure. I saw this phenomenon once before where the cat failed, the back pressure rose to over 90, from approx. 40 KPa and caused the rings to 'nip' as the lands deformed.
Is there any detonation nibbling on the crown? from the pic resolution I cant see, or is this failure an immediate reaction to over-pressure condition?

If I were you I would relocate the cat much further downstream, in the silencer like the motorsport world often does. All it has to do is reach conversion temp (approx 330 deg C) to pass garage checks.
Can you find a supplier of 89mm forged piston?
Can you fit fuel octane sensor in the line, link it into your jumper EMS to re-adjust spark to accommodate low octane?
Can you measure inlet air temp to adjust spark if combustion air temps rise over a predefined critical limit within the jumper ECU?

Mike.

Edited by BamfordMike on Sunday 17th April 01:32

Not sure how much detonation contributed but these cars do pull timing significantly (don't know how much the supercharger drive noise might be contributing to this). Chamber overpressure was suspected. I'm running double dip trimetal cats and don't expect to see this anytime soon

[flinder]

Mike,

You have our V8V engine power problem under control. You understand the issues and are developing resolution opportunities.

Let me highlight a product problem resolution that could represent a much larger market opportunity for Bamford Rose...the 4.3L six speed clutch. The internet tells me 5K miles is a really short life, but it happens, and a 20K failure is a regular occurance. The dealers say the upgraded 4.7L system is not the answer. What do you think, can it be adapted? How about a proven alternative from the aftermarket for you to market worldwide?

High on my personal list of improvement opportunities is weight reduction. Every vehicle performance measure improves when you add light weight. Somebody famous said that! After the big exhaust system save and the coming 25# to 30# save from the arrival of high volume, cost effective lithium ion batteries, what is next? Do you have a list?

[BamfordMike]

Stuart Dickinson said:

That figure sounds right to me, just wondered because for several years Quicksilver was quoting 20BHP.

It would not be right of me to comment on behalf of Quicksilver. What I can say is that of all the big name suppliers I visited seeking collaboration, Quicksilver were the most sensible regarding the absolute power increases possible via silencer alone. This together with their market leading manufacturing quality standards and the fact the Quicksilver team are jolly nice fellows meant I was happy and proud to enter into collaboration with them over the rest of the field.

I think what happens after this milestone will be interesting. I have outlined what the performance increase would be if the intermediate pipes were vented to atmosphere, so anybody claiming more than that figure would have a pretty difficult time justifying that claim. Unless their dyno guy dabbed the breaks on the way down the power curve....!!

Mike.

[BamfordMike]

flinder said:

Mike,

You have our V8V engine power problem under control. You understand the issues and are developing resolution opportunities.

Let me highlight a product problem resolution that could represent a much larger market opportunity for Bamford Rose...the 4.3L six speed clutch. The internet tells me 5K miles is a really short life, but it happens, and a 20K failure is a regular occurance. The dealers say the upgraded 4.7L system is not the answer. What do you think, can it be adapted? How about a proven alternative from the aftermarket for you to market worldwide?

High on my personal list of improvement opportunities is weight reduction. Every vehicle performance measure improves when you add light weight. Somebody famous said that! After the big exhaust system save and the coming 25# to 30# save from the arrival of high volume, cost effective lithium ion batteries, what is next? Do you have a list?

Glad to have earned your confidence

A customer car is currently undergoing 'the full monty' with Bamford Rose, this includes 4.3L to 4.7L conversion, full Quicksilver exhaust system with a lightweight flywheel and twinplate clutch to finish off the package for good measure. The heavy duty twinplate clutch overcomes the issues of the weak OE single plate clutch comprehensively. No doubt this particular customer will share his experience of this package on this forum in due course.

The whole clutch saga on Aston Martin V8 Vantage is a pet hate of mine.
The clutch is weak from original design - the proof, check-out the number of forum members complaining about premature failure. Does the factory implement an update - no. The customer is expected to trot off to dealer and seek repair. But lets examine this repair, in reality it takes 6 hours in the shop and the dealer who can buy the clutch kit at dealer discount rate will pay around £800 for it. So, 6x£100 labor =£600 + dealer clutch kit price = £800 + consumables =£100 total = £1500 (not inclusive VAT). So why is clutch change at dealer often more than twice this amount?? Especially when its a known 'trouble' for customers..??!!

Your final point opens quite a philosophical debate. Full electric cars are many years away, certainly the ones that need to tow / carry weight, travel at speed and have an acceptable range are. The stringent emissions laws looming on the horizon (2015 and beyond) mean significant fuel economy and C02 reduction is required, fail these laws = company cant sell cars anymore. Problem this means for any car using big displacement engine is the need for downsizing or hybrid. Ok, but downsizing means sophisticated pressure charging system to recover the performance lost by reduced displacement (engine smaller and more fuel efficient / clean because of downsizing in the emissions test area, then in the area the legislator does not test emissions for the forced induction system kicks in power to recover lost power from smaller displacement engine). OK, downsized engine for Aston Martin with forced induction then, but problem for Aston Martin is that other auto makers have been dabbling with this tech for some time now meaning Aston's first stab at this tech will have to take one / two giant leaps to level not even surpass the many current production engines built with this tech already. Meaning, will an Aston engine of the future ever be as special as 510BHP V12??? Even if Aston matches this engine tech of others, the brand values that make an Aston what it is are supreme ride comfort, handling, refinement and a car capable of extreme speed = components that weigh a lot. However, much like engine is required to improve fuel economy, the vehicle needs to go on a diet to reduce vehicle related fuel economy and C02 emissions too. Long story short then, compromised engine, compromised car design, is it possible to have enough room in the legislation to create something we know today as an Aston Martin?? For the sake of the brand I do hope so, very hope so.. but this is one reason I decided to duck-out of the auto design game and lock my trade in the last 15 years of Aston production. Example, there must have been a point where in, say, the 80's Americans started to feel they were loosing the great muscle cars of the 60/70's off their roads. Bamford Rose is establishing its roots to keep the current crop of Astons on the road alive and kicking forever, even if future legislation wipes away Aston in the same way the muscle cars were (almost)lost forever. Sorry if I didn't answer your question in the direction you intimated, but there were many directions possible and that one rung true with me.... plus the fact I have V12 gasoline thunder in my blood, not lithium ion batteries...

Mike.

[rick-derby-]

BamfordMike said:

The whole clutch saga on Aston Martin V8 Vantage is a pet hate of mine.
The clutch is weak from original design - the proof, check-out the number of forum members complaining about premature failure. Does the factory implement an update - no. The customer is expected to trot off to dealer and seek repair. But lets examine this repair, in reality it takes 6 hours in the shop and the dealer who can buy the clutch kit at dealer discount rate will pay around £800 for it. So, 6x£100 labor =£600 + dealer clutch kit price = £800 + consumables =£100 total = £1500 (not inclusive VAT). So why is clutch change at dealer often more than twice this amount?? Especially when its a known 'trouble' for customers..??!!

Mike.

Hi Mike although I agree the clutch is a weak point and unforgiving, you have painted an unfair picture the quoted labour time from Aston martin that the dealers use is not 6 hours but closer too 10, also in many cases the flywheel plus the slave cylinder are replaced which personally I would recommend, and obviously add additional cost,

[BamfordMike]

rick-derby- said:

Hi Mike although I agree the clutch is a weak point and unforgiving, you have painted an unfair picture the quoted labour time from Aston martin that the dealers use is not 6 hours but closer too 10, also in many cases the flywheel plus the slave cylinder are replaced which personally I would recommend, and obviously add additional cost,

Hi Rick, thanks for your perspective, and seeing as your prices are much less than main dealers, you too are offering your customers real value.

Whilst developing these cars I always remember that 'design-for-service' considerations meant that clutch change had to be drive-in-drive-out (same day) to match Porsche standards. And as far as i'm aware this standard was / is maintained. So quite where the 10 hours has crept in from I don't know?

Certainly not just my factory trained, but the factory's ex-prototype development car technicians can turn-around a clutch change in the time I state - and should this not be so, that's what the job is charged out for, so the only loser stands to be me if i'm wrong.

I have seen more burnt out and completely trashed clutches than most people, and only a couple, where the development testing was so harsh, did it warrant a new flywheel. So changing as a matter of course this part or the slave cylinder is a complete waste of the customers money if these parts aren't really, really necessary. But I am guessing your words "personally recommend" does mean only when really, really necessary, cant imagine it would be very frequent at all though?

Mike.

[rick-derby-]

from experience replacing the clutch without the flywheel reduces further the life of the new clutch, I have actually had cars with slipping clutches where the flywheel has not been replaced previously and found the friction plate still to have material left and not down to the rivets as expected, also if the clutch has had the driver resting the foot on the pedal you see tell tale marks on the fingers this means the release bearing has been running constantly under pressure, and there is not many that we do not see hotspots or scoring to the flywheel, I do not believe in replacing parts just for the sake of it, not replacing some parts in this instance can lead to customer dissatisfaction, loss of faith in the brand so moving away to other makes and increased expense in the short to mid term, I do believe in quoting a worse case and if parts are deemed not to be necessary then these can be deducted rather than the other way and then having to up the price,

[Stuart Dickinson]

BamfordMike said:

Whilst developing these cars I always remember that 'design-for-service' considerations meant that clutch change had to be drive-in-drive-out (same day) to match Porsche standards. And as far as i'm aware this standard was / is maintained. So quite where the 10 hours has crept in from I don't know?

To quote Murray Walker "Unless I'm very much mistaken" (usually followed with "and I AM very much mistaken") the Service manual quotes 9 hours for a manual and 9.65 for a Sportshift.

[BamfordMike]

Stuart Dickinson said:

To quote Murray Walker "Unless I'm very much mistaken" (usually followed with "and I AM very much mistaken") the Service manual quotes 9 hours for a manual and 9.65 for a Sportshift.

Nice to see you on here again. So what's the big problem.... If my guys can do the job in 6 hours and I pass the cost saving on to the customer why the interest....?? I'm quite happy to offer clutch change training courses to put everyone on a level playing field.... ohh, and i'll throw-in 'flywheel analysis' for free...

Whilst you are here Stuart, perhaps you could comment on some interesting literature I found the other day, I believe it's yours..??

Based on the rationale (page 1 of this thread) which charts that when sports catalysts, sports silencer and ECU reflash (which returns absolutely nothing) are fitted to 4.3L vantage, which all give at absolute, absolute best 20 - 30 BHP - RSC declare 50BHP+ (your advertising claims 430BHP+).

PS: your answer should include terms like; combustion analysis data, fuel flow, volumetric efficiency, airflow, ISO / SAE correction factors - but i'm sure i need not of mentioned these important design verification variables...

All the best.

[Stuart Dickinson]

BamfordMike said:

Nice to see you on here again. So what's the big problem.... If my guys can do the job in 6 hours and I pass the cost saving on to the customer why the interest....?? I'm quite happy to offer clutch change training courses to put everyone on a level playing field.... ohh, and i'll throw-in 'flywheel analysis' for free...

If your guys can do it in 6 hours and you pass the cost saving on to a customer that's great! Not having a go at you or your guys, just providing some information. You posed the question - not sure where almost 10 hours crept in from, I'm just filling you in that this is what AM quotes in the service manual. I agree that it can be done in 6 hours.

BamfordMike said:

Whilst you are here Stuart, perhaps you could comment on some interesting literature I found the other day, I believe it's yours..??

Not sure why you're so upset with me or with RSC? Never had a go at you guys or what you do. You seem like a great outfit. We've seen great results from the products we offer and have lots of happy customers who think our ECU tuning is great and who have reported great gains.