Is a Supra the best high power option?

[yellowstreak]

designforlife said:

A friend of mine has a 490bhp evo 8 FQ300. Admittedly it's had a hell of a lot of engine work to get to those figures, but he only paid 15k for it.

It's a savage car, and feels incredibly planted even with all that extra power.

I've yet to drive an evo. They certainly seem fantastic bits of kit, the usability of the power that makes them attractive. I would be slightly wary of 490bhp from a 2000cc engine though!

There is a 6 speed manual supra with 650bhp car on e bays at the moment. Sadly bidding starts at £20k!

Edited by yellowstreak on Friday 18th December 15:56

Edited by yellowstreak on Friday 18th December 16:01

[designforlife]

Here's the build/spec thread for it-

http://www.lancerregister.com/showthread.php?t=514...

[j_s14a]

As far as tuning vs reliability, the Supra is the best Japanese car without a doubt. A few US ones have done circa 1000hp on stock internals, and the whole transmission has proven to be reliable to well over 1000hp on the 6 speed manual cars.

I'm currently building one for around 600hp, based on a facelift vvti engined model with the tiptronic transmission, that I've converted to use AMG paddleshifters.









And at the Nurburgring earlier this year

[TommoAE86]

That's epic, have you a build thread anywhere?

[j_s14a]

I actually put a brief one up on here yesterday, prompted by this thread

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

There is a much more thorough thread on the owners forum

Another point to the OP: if you want the tunability and reliability of the Supra, but want more practicality, the Toyota Aristo is basically a Lexus GS300 that comes from the factory with the same engine. Only comes in an auto / tiptronic , but the automatic gearboxes are good and strong, though easily swapped to a manual if you must.

[yellowstreak]

j_s14a said:

I actually put a brief one up on here yesterday, prompted by this thread

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

There is a much more thorough thread on the owners forum

Another point to the OP: if you want the tunability and reliability of the Supra, but want more practicality, the Toyota Aristo is basically a Lexus GS300 that comes from the factory with the same engine. Only comes in an auto / tiptronic , but the automatic gearboxes are good and strong, though easily swapped to a manual if you must.

Thanks for starting that thread - yours is just what I would like to achieve, although possibly with a manual rather than tiptronic. You say that the manual is poor in traffic, why is this?

Also I see you have swapped to a LSD, was it just that the first buyer didn't opt for an LSD or have you swapped to a different one for strength?

[j_s14a]

yellowstreak said:

Thanks for starting that thread - yours is just what I would like to achieve, although possibly with a manual rather than tiptronic. You say that the manual is poor in traffic, why is this?

Also I see you have swapped to a LSD, was it just that the first buyer didn't opt for an LSD or have you swapped to a different one for strength?

The 6 speed manual getrag box that the turbo models come with has a notchy, agricultural change, and a heavy clutch pedal. poorly treated ones have an awful gear change. The 5 speed manual in the non turbo models is lovely to use, but can't take much torque (circa 350-400 lb/ft max) Most uprated clutches make these issues worse, and they also become noisy. Once you get used to driving the manual, they are satisfying and the shift does get better, but they remain a pig in traffic.

I would consider a manual if my car was only for summer weekends, but as it's a daily I'm not willing to sacrifice its pleasant manners for a bit more fun 5% of the time.

As for the LSD, the tiptronic models came with an open diff, with an LSD being a factory option. However, the TRD diff I'm installing is much superior to the factory LSD's,and makes the car very potent on the smaller, twisting roads we have here in North Yorkshire

[Red Devil]

j_s14a said:

As far as tuning vs reliability, the Supra is the best Japanese car without a doubt.

+1

Some years ago I had a play with a modded Supra on the B6277 from Alston to the Langdon Beck Hotel. Awesomely quick machine.
They are pretty much bullet proof. A friend currently has a 500+ bhp one and it has never given him the slightest trouble.

[ZX10R NIN]

j_s14a said:

As far as tuning vs reliability, the Supra is the best Japanese car without a doubt. A few US ones have done circa 1000hp on stock internals, and the whole transmission has proven to be reliable to well over 1000hp on the 6 speed manual cars.

I'm currently building one for around 600hp, based on a facelift vvti engined model with the tiptronic transmission, that I've converted to use AMG paddleshifters.









And at the Nurburgring earlier this year

Have you seen this gem? A guy in the UK has mated the 7 Speed dual clutch transmission from the M3/6 to a Supra!!

Great work & it's opened my eyes to taking a close look at these, would you say it's better to source a UK spec car?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdLinfqF-9k

[j_s14a]

ZX10R NIN said:

Have you seen this gem? A guy in the UK has mated the 7 Speed dual clutch transmission from the M3/6 to a Supra!!

Great work & it's opened my eyes to taking a close look at these, would you say it's better to source a UK spec car?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdLinfqF-9k

Coincidentally, Whifbitz who do that conversion are currently fitting the single turbo conversion to my Supra It looks amazing. There's also a Supra tuner called SRD who have a similar kit, but it uses the fantastic 8 speed auto gearbox from the Lexus ISF. From what I gether, the Whifbitz conversion is around £10k all in, the SRD one probably around £7k. Maybe one day.

Personally, I would avoid UK spec cars. The reason these are so popular is the reduced insurance premiums. A rust free, fresh import from Japan is the way to go, along with a rigorous programme of undersealing and waxoyling etc. Preferably a later facelift vvti model, which comes in either manual or tiptronic flavours.

But supply is dwindling, and prices are shooting up, so now is the time to be buying.

[ZX10R NIN]

Thanks I'll get looking, talking of the single turbo conversion I've decided 500bhp is where I'd want it to be so would you recommend a single turbo conversion for reliability?

[j_s14a]

ZX10R NIN said:

Thanks I'll get looking, talking of the single turbo conversion I've decided 500bhp is where I'd want it to be so would you recommend a single turbo conversion for reliability?

The stock turbos on J-Specs (japanese imports) have ceramic blades, and are safe up to 1.2 bar boost. The UK cars have slightly smaller turbos, but they have steel blades, and are safeup to 1.4 bar) J-specs can make up to around 400hp on the stock turbos, and UKs maybe 420-430ish. The method of tuning to this power with stock turbos is referred to as 'BPU' (base performance upgrades), so if you type 'bpu supra' into google you will find a huge amount of information on what's needed. Usual cost of BPU on a stock car is usually £1000-£2000, depending on the components used.

To go further, you can either:

upgrade the turbos to hybrids, but this isn't very popular as the HP-£ is poor value.

install a pair of larger, aftermarket twin turbos. These used to be popular, but it is an expensive, and complicated option with few benefits over the next choice.

Install a modern aftermarket single turbo, or 'going single' in Supra community language. This covers everything from 450hp to the 2000hp monsters found in the US. The costs vary hugely depending on your goals, but a 600-700hp setup will cost approximately £10k-£15k. The most significant costs are the turbo kit (turbo, manifold, wastegate, downpipe, lines etc) and a standalone aftermarket ECU. Those two bits will cost you circa £6k-£10k without fitting/mapping etc.

Now, the point is that there's no difference in the components needed to build a 450hp single turbo Supra, and a 600hp one. Even the turbo really needs to be capable of 550hp+, as smaller ones strangle the exhaust gasses on the 3.0 2JZ.

The most cost effective way of getting a single turbo Supra is to buy one that someone else has built. Single turbo Autos start at around £10k, manuals at around £15k. But, this is a minefield. Look for one that has been built using quality components by a proven tuner, and you won't go far wrong. But these obviously command the strongest prices, and I'd say £20k+ would get you a nicely built single turbo manual, that would have cost you circa £30k to build.

If you're seriously interested in these cars, I would wholeheartedly recommend joining the owners forum (mkivsupra.net), it is an invaluable source of info

[ZX10R NIN]

Thanks for the info I will join the forum, as I need to look into it properly just need the SL to sell & I'll start looking.

[madcowman]

I went down the Aristo route , with the similar Base Performance upgrades , though I'm running uprated twins on a Mines ECU. The boost controller still needs some setting up but I'm waiting for time to go on a rolling road for that.

[j_s14a]

Do you need a boost controller? Many of the Mines ECU's increase boost to 1.2 bar.

[coldel]

Have you thought about NA super/turbo charging? HR 350z with supercharge/turbo kit for instance would be a savage machine (guy on 350z forum built vortech2 supercharged green monster featured in JPM).

Any reason you are only interested in a high BHP figure, what about BHP per tonne? A tuned VX220 turbo would run rings around any high bhp coupe/saloon car on track or a/b roads, yes not jap but if you transfer the theory to something like an MX5 turbo, maybe meth/water cool it and you would have something of a sleeper that has nothing short of missile like velocity?

I personally think high BHP numbers nothing but for the lads pub talk about who's got the biggest (no offence!), BHP per tonne is where the excitement is at ;-)

[Red Devil]

j_s14a said:

Do you need a boost controller? Many of the Mines ECU's increase boost to 1.2 bar.

.
http://www.mines-wave.com/english/CATALOG/ECU/VX-R...

A boost controller won't help because, AFAIK, the map on a Mines ECU is set at the factory for a specific car/model and is not programmable. See post #3 here.
http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?87...

I used to have a Mines on one of my MR2s and sold it on as I needed a standalone unit which could be mapped by a UK tuner the way I needed it to be for my car's spec.

[UTH]

designforlife said:

A friend of mine has a 490bhp evo 8 FQ300. Admittedly it's had a hell of a lot of engine work to get to those figures, but he only paid 15k for it.

It's a savage car, and feels incredibly planted even with all that extra power.

Not many people mentioning Evos on this thread, but as a driver of an Evo VI myself, I can't recommend highly enough. I'm at 470bhp with no issuesd at all, but many are 600bhp and higher. I don't know anything about the Supra world, but personally I think the Evo looks cooler, and as far as performance goes I'd be amazed if a Supra was any better. My Evo is usually one of the quickest cars at any track day I go to, and I'm not even running what you'd call huge power.

[j_s14a]

UTH said:

Not many people mentioning Evos on this thread, but as a driver of an Evo VI myself, I can't recommend highly enough. I'm at 470bhp with no issuesd at all, but many are 600bhp and higher. I don't know anything about the Supra world, but personally I think the Evo looks cooler, and as far as performance goes I'd be amazed if a Supra was any better. My Evo is usually one of the quickest cars at any track day I go to, and I'm not even running what you'd call huge power.

They're both great performance cars, but they aren't really comparable because they are completely different. The 3000GT/GTO was Mitsubishi's equivalent of the Supra, though it was nowhere near as good. The Celica GT4 is the nearest thing Toyota have made to an Evo.

[UTH]

j_s14a said:

UTH said:

Not many people mentioning Evos on this thread, but as a driver of an Evo VI myself, I can't recommend highly enough. I'm at 470bhp with no issuesd at all, but many are 600bhp and higher. I don't know anything about the Supra world, but personally I think the Evo looks cooler, and as far as performance goes I'd be amazed if a Supra was any better. My Evo is usually one of the quickest cars at any track day I go to, and I'm not even running what you'd call huge power.

They're both great performance cars, but they aren't really comparable because they are completely different. The 3000GT/GTO was Mitsubishi's equivalent of the Supra, though it was nowhere near as good. The Celica GT4 is the nearest thing Toyota have made to an Evo.

True but original question was just if the Supra was the best high powered option, so just wanted to make sure the Evo wasn't ruled out as seemingly not great for running high power