Discussion
Whilst I cannot deny that the Civic is a good machine (worth the money, in its own right) and is fantastically-built, it simply isn't worth the extra money above the Clio.
Honda dealers will give discounts on the CTR but not huge one's; think I've heard of someone being quoted just under £16k for a new model with Air-Con. I'm sure more can be haggled, but I doubt anyone can buy a dealer-sourced model for sub-£15k (with Air-Con).
I've got a quote for a brand new Clio 182, with Cup Suspension (standard wheels, I hate the darker ones), Cup spoilers and ID paint, for £12k dead on. That's a serious amount of car for the money (plenty less than I paid for my MINI with nearer-poverty spec). I know of Car Supermarkets that'll supply a standard 182 for £10,699! The interior of the Clio makes the CTR seem basic (electric everything, Leather/Alcantara as standard, full climate-control, cruise, etc) and TBH, they're not that badly put together.
Has to be said though, IMHO Renault dealers are not at the top of the pile for customer service, particularly aftersales! Whereas I've heard some very good things about Honda.
At the end of the day, you pick the car you want. CTR's look a little more 'special' than the Clio's, but some people would rather have the Q-car status that the Clio holds - it really can shock a lot of people.
Honda dealers will give discounts on the CTR but not huge one's; think I've heard of someone being quoted just under £16k for a new model with Air-Con. I'm sure more can be haggled, but I doubt anyone can buy a dealer-sourced model for sub-£15k (with Air-Con).
I've got a quote for a brand new Clio 182, with Cup Suspension (standard wheels, I hate the darker ones), Cup spoilers and ID paint, for £12k dead on. That's a serious amount of car for the money (plenty less than I paid for my MINI with nearer-poverty spec). I know of Car Supermarkets that'll supply a standard 182 for £10,699! The interior of the Clio makes the CTR seem basic (electric everything, Leather/Alcantara as standard, full climate-control, cruise, etc) and TBH, they're not that badly put together.
Has to be said though, IMHO Renault dealers are not at the top of the pile for customer service, particularly aftersales! Whereas I've heard some very good things about Honda.
At the end of the day, you pick the car you want. CTR's look a little more 'special' than the Clio's, but some people would rather have the Q-car status that the Clio holds - it really can shock a lot of people.
One of my colleagues has just bought one. Some anniversary special edition, with red Recaro seats and what not. The power delivery can best be summed up as:
rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrRRRAAAAAARRGGHHH!
It wheelspins in third gear, shrieks along at a mad rate (feels faster than it is; 80 mph in the Civic feels like 110mph in my Octavia, all on a private road of course). Fuel economy is pretty good.
Not my cup of tea, but I can see the attraction. It's well built, should be bulletproof in terms of reliability, and bags of fun.
I test drove one a while ago, and personally didn't like it. The steering was wierd, and the car felt somewhat out of control when it was booted. I dread to think what it would be like to drive in the wet. I enjoyed the engine note, but I suspect it would become annoying eventually.
In summary, if you like rev-happy Japanese cars, it's brill! If not, you'll hate it.
rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrRRRAAAAAARRGGHHH!
It wheelspins in third gear, shrieks along at a mad rate (feels faster than it is; 80 mph in the Civic feels like 110mph in my Octavia, all on a private road of course). Fuel economy is pretty good.
Not my cup of tea, but I can see the attraction. It's well built, should be bulletproof in terms of reliability, and bags of fun.
I test drove one a while ago, and personally didn't like it. The steering was wierd, and the car felt somewhat out of control when it was booted. I dread to think what it would be like to drive in the wet. I enjoyed the engine note, but I suspect it would become annoying eventually.
In summary, if you like rev-happy Japanese cars, it's brill! If not, you'll hate it.
IIRc the civic's engine produces a tad more torque than the Vxll 2.2 and the ford 2.0, and thats before the vtec point so what is directly comparitive to say that there is no torque?
I've had no problems at all with mine in the 22 months i've owned it so far, driving in town is painless, and empty roads when the red mist drops is a hoot
Wasn't the civic faster round the tight Anglesey track than the 182 on this weeks driven?
My only real gripe on the civic is it's only a 4 seat car in a 5 seat class.
I've had no problems at all with mine in the 22 months i've owned it so far, driving in town is painless, and empty roads when the red mist drops is a hoot
Wasn't the civic faster round the tight Anglesey track than the 182 on this weeks driven?
My only real gripe on the civic is it's only a 4 seat car in a 5 seat class.
If I recall the K20A develops 145lb/ft at around 5800rpm. The VX 2.2 develops 150lb/ft at 4000rpm. Some of the Type-R owners have stated that the 197bhp at the flywheel is a tad optimistic at best though.
I think the point about the torque is that it only is fast because of the very short ratio gearbox. If you put a set of normal ratio gears on that engine it would be a real dog.
In my old Type-R you never really get that push in the back unlike other torquier cars.
>> Edited by Charlieromeo on Friday 13th May 22:18
I think the point about the torque is that it only is fast because of the very short ratio gearbox. If you put a set of normal ratio gears on that engine it would be a real dog.
In my old Type-R you never really get that push in the back unlike other torquier cars.
>> Edited by Charlieromeo on Friday 13th May 22:18
I should have worded that a little better, the bigger capacity vxl engine makes an extra 3nm over the honda
203Nm over 200Nm
Which are a few Nm greater than the mondeo's 2.0, not enough to split hairs over but it's not the great slacker people make out.
The honda has the extra 50 ponies though
The having a transmission with ratios perfectly matched to the power delivery and high rpm are nothing less than a bonus though, so without it.....it'd perform like an astra
case closed................runs off sobbing
203Nm over 200Nm
Which are a few Nm greater than the mondeo's 2.0, not enough to split hairs over but it's not the great slacker people make out.
The honda has the extra 50 ponies though
The having a transmission with ratios perfectly matched to the power delivery and high rpm are nothing less than a bonus though, so without it.....it'd perform like an astra
case closed................runs off sobbing
I've done 40,000 miles in my CTR and it still puts a smile on my face. Why oh why to people keep on bleating about the lack of torque...? The fact is it has just as much torque at low and mid rpm as other 2 litre hot hatches but above 6krpm you get a whole load more. It'll sing right round to the red line and beyond without complaint and deliver a great driving experience. Here's my views :
- Throw away the OEM Bridgestones, they are crap beyond belief. So-so dry grip and f'kall grip in the wet and they are a 2-stage tyre. Great foir the first few thousand miles then rock hard and crap beyond that. Save money and fit Toyo Proxes T1-S. Slightly different size (215-40-17 vs 205-45-17 of Bridgestone) but cheaper. Toyos do get noisy though. Sounds like a wheel bearing has gone on some surfaces.
- Slightly wooly steering. EPS isn't fantastic, but it ensures you get the full 200bhp or whatever it is when you aren't steering.
- Build. About as good as any other £10k hatch, it's just that this one has got a £5k engine (exaggeration, but you know what I mean). Good seats.
- Performance. I have seen a genuine 150mph (GPS verified). Will return 35mpg if driven light. Sounds great when you wind it up. Will smoke just about anything else.
- NOT as much fun to drive as a Clio. Less 'chuckable' but it's still the fastest hot hatch round Top Gear's test track (that includes the Clio, Focus RS and new Golf GTI).
- I'd rather have a crash in the Civic than the Clio which is blatantly bacofoil with a Renault badge.
- If I was doing trackdays and stuff, I'd get the Clio.
- Aircon is a ripoff at £1k. Bear in mind it is standard on ALL other Civics in the range.
- No toys inside (no xenons, leather, cd changer etc).
- Cheap to run and good warranty.
I'll be selling mine soon and am REALLY struggling to think of something to replace it with.
Edited to add : The BEST gearchange of any car I have ever driven. Absolutely sublime.
>> Edited by roop on Friday 13th May 22:38
- Throw away the OEM Bridgestones, they are crap beyond belief. So-so dry grip and f'kall grip in the wet and they are a 2-stage tyre. Great foir the first few thousand miles then rock hard and crap beyond that. Save money and fit Toyo Proxes T1-S. Slightly different size (215-40-17 vs 205-45-17 of Bridgestone) but cheaper. Toyos do get noisy though. Sounds like a wheel bearing has gone on some surfaces.
- Slightly wooly steering. EPS isn't fantastic, but it ensures you get the full 200bhp or whatever it is when you aren't steering.
- Build. About as good as any other £10k hatch, it's just that this one has got a £5k engine (exaggeration, but you know what I mean). Good seats.
- Performance. I have seen a genuine 150mph (GPS verified). Will return 35mpg if driven light. Sounds great when you wind it up. Will smoke just about anything else.
- NOT as much fun to drive as a Clio. Less 'chuckable' but it's still the fastest hot hatch round Top Gear's test track (that includes the Clio, Focus RS and new Golf GTI).
- I'd rather have a crash in the Civic than the Clio which is blatantly bacofoil with a Renault badge.
- If I was doing trackdays and stuff, I'd get the Clio.
- Aircon is a ripoff at £1k. Bear in mind it is standard on ALL other Civics in the range.
- No toys inside (no xenons, leather, cd changer etc).
- Cheap to run and good warranty.
I'll be selling mine soon and am REALLY struggling to think of something to replace it with.
Edited to add : The BEST gearchange of any car I have ever driven. Absolutely sublime.
>> Edited by roop on Friday 13th May 22:38
roop said:
Save money and fit Toyo Proxes T1-S. Slightly different size (215-40-17 vs 205-45-17 of Bridgestone) but cheaper. Toyos do get noisy though. Sounds like a wheel bearing has gone on some surfaces.
is there an S03 alternative with exactly the same dimensions? (don't feel comfortable about using tyres that don't fit the rims exactly) i have got 17k out of my SO3's but it does slide around a bit on wet roads...
roop said:
I'd rather have a crash in the Civic than the Clio which is blatantly bacofoil with a Renault badge.
definitely passes the brick wall test
but it's about £1500 for replacement airbags - makes the air-con look cheap!
I have only ever taken one for a test drive, and then thanks to a horrendous insurance quote (£17k on a £14k car!!) never took it any further.
IMO I say get the Type R. I think its brilliant. So what if the power delivery is laggy (you should try my car!) on most day to day runs you dont need all 200bhp to get to work and back, and when you do want it, you know where it is. 7k rpm and onwards.
I dont speak from experience, or much knowledge (
), but I still think its a cracking motor.
ps, they are slower than celica gt4's though and you can buy those £4.5k, see classifieds 
IMO I say get the Type R. I think its brilliant. So what if the power delivery is laggy (you should try my car!) on most day to day runs you dont need all 200bhp to get to work and back, and when you do want it, you know where it is. 7k rpm and onwards.
I dont speak from experience, or much knowledge (
), but I still think its a cracking motor. ps, they are slower than celica gt4's though and you can buy those £4.5k, see classifieds
I think the whole talk of 'torque' (if you'll pardon the expression) is used to kind of sum up the experience of the car. You know it should be good but somehow it should be more.
You can't help but feel you are missing out on something. When it came to the decision to get rid of my Civic I couldn't really sum up my reasons for not liking it. It was fast, it was reliable, it was practical which is exactly why I bought it but it wasn't special.
When I sent it in for it's second service I got a 1.6 newer model Civic and to be quite honest I couldn't tell the difference between that and the Type-R driving it normally. Sitting in it you could be in any other Japanese or european hatchback which is a bit rubbish if you bought it to be thrilled.
That's why I now own a proper sports car and every Civic Type-R seems to want to race me!! Seems that if you own a Type-R you have to constantly remind and prove to yourself that it is a cut above average... drive it in autopilot and you'll forget.
In my car I just know.
>> Edited by charlieromeo on Saturday 14th May 20:46
You can't help but feel you are missing out on something. When it came to the decision to get rid of my Civic I couldn't really sum up my reasons for not liking it. It was fast, it was reliable, it was practical which is exactly why I bought it but it wasn't special.
When I sent it in for it's second service I got a 1.6 newer model Civic and to be quite honest I couldn't tell the difference between that and the Type-R driving it normally. Sitting in it you could be in any other Japanese or european hatchback which is a bit rubbish if you bought it to be thrilled.
That's why I now own a proper sports car and every Civic Type-R seems to want to race me!! Seems that if you own a Type-R you have to constantly remind and prove to yourself that it is a cut above average... drive it in autopilot and you'll forget.
In my car I just know.
>> Edited by charlieromeo on Saturday 14th May 20:46
Cheers folks,
Viewed the car on friday evening and it was amazing to drive. Sweet gearbox, lovely engine, blemish free black paint and a spotless interior. I'm having trouble not buying it.
It does have a crap interior and you do indeed have to remind yourself of what it is that you're in. But hey, you have to start somewhere, and I think the type-R might just be a kinda nice place to whet my appitite.
Going back tomorrow. Cash in hand.
>> Edited by up-the-dubs on Saturday 14th May 21:22
Viewed the car on friday evening and it was amazing to drive. Sweet gearbox, lovely engine, blemish free black paint and a spotless interior. I'm having trouble not buying it.
It does have a crap interior and you do indeed have to remind yourself of what it is that you're in. But hey, you have to start somewhere, and I think the type-R might just be a kinda nice place to whet my appitite.
Going back tomorrow. Cash in hand.
>> Edited by up-the-dubs on Saturday 14th May 21:22
charlieromeo said:
When I sent it in for it's second service I got a 1.6 newer model Civic and to be quite honest I couldn't tell the difference between that and the Type-R driving it normally. .
I'm a little confused now.
When you say you got the newer model Civic as a loan car, does that mean you had the EK-9 version and NOT the i-vtec equipped and current EP3 ?
If you've not driven the i-vtec engine, your basing your comparisons on out of date experiences.
If I am indeed
, i'll blame it on the stella There's no other Bridgies as far as I'm aware. The switch to the more popular 215/40/17 size is commonplace on Civics and you have nothing to worry about. It's 10mm wider and a slightly lower profile to keep the rolling radius just about the same.
fido said:
is there an S03 alternative with exactly the same dimensions? (don't feel comfortable about using tyres that don't fit the rims exactly) i have got 17k out of my SO3's but it does slide around a bit on wet roads...
Uh...? I've had a bunch of rental Civics during services, both 1.4 and a 1.6 Sport (Type-R look-alike) and none of them drove anything remotely like the Type-R - They are very very different animals with only the shell and interior the same...! How you couldn't tell the difference driving I'll never know - astonishing. Completely different suspension setup including angles and rates, different steering rack, different engine and gearbox etc etc. You can feel the difference the moment you pull out of the forecourt. Like saying a Range Rover drives the same as a Jag because it's got the same engine...!
Regards courtesy cars, my dealer gave me an Impreza WRX as a loaner during a service last year and aside from outright grip during acceleration, the Civic would have licked it everywhere. The Subaru feeling very blunted in both speed and acceleration and also cornering and general feedback. The brakes were very good though, with more feel than the Hondas. Overall, I found the Subaru experience very boring and it put me off buying one as a replacement for the Honda.
To an extent, I agree on the interior front, it's very basic and uninspiring and air-con should be standard, but the whole point of the car is it's performance. You *still* cannot go faster for the money which in the day of all these new generation hot hatches is pretty good going for a 5 year old model. As for being thrilled just sitting in it, you're not going to be thrilled in any 200bhp car costing under £20k let alone £16.5k. I haven't been in any cheap car and thought the interior was any cop to be honest.
Residuals are still good on the car with demand keeping them buoyant along with new car discounts low. When Gaffer looked at a Clio 172 Cup (182 wasn't around at that point) she secured a monster discount on the car ( I think the price was about £10,500 OTR in the end ) hence residuals aren't so hot. Focus RS residuals are still good and they are extremely quick cars albeit a handful in day-to-day driving.
With the new Civic coming along very soon, the current Type-R will be dead shortly. The boy done good.
I am struggling to think of what to replace the CTR with. Either a VXT or a Monaro are right up there at the moment, but the VX is even more spartan, and truly apallingly screwed together compared to the CTR but the performance and the way that performance is accessible is fab, and I love it. Theey do appear to lose money hand over fist as well given the prices I've been looking at, but as a 2nd hand buyer that's good for me. The Monaro appeals because of the no-snobbery badge and V8 noise. Might be a bit big though, but that's not such a huge worry. The alternative is to go out on one and get an R34 Skyline. High running costs admittedly, but that's not such an issue given the rarity. I just want something a bit different.
>> Edited by roop on Sunday 15th May 08:43
Regards courtesy cars, my dealer gave me an Impreza WRX as a loaner during a service last year and aside from outright grip during acceleration, the Civic would have licked it everywhere. The Subaru feeling very blunted in both speed and acceleration and also cornering and general feedback. The brakes were very good though, with more feel than the Hondas. Overall, I found the Subaru experience very boring and it put me off buying one as a replacement for the Honda.
To an extent, I agree on the interior front, it's very basic and uninspiring and air-con should be standard, but the whole point of the car is it's performance. You *still* cannot go faster for the money which in the day of all these new generation hot hatches is pretty good going for a 5 year old model. As for being thrilled just sitting in it, you're not going to be thrilled in any 200bhp car costing under £20k let alone £16.5k. I haven't been in any cheap car and thought the interior was any cop to be honest.
Residuals are still good on the car with demand keeping them buoyant along with new car discounts low. When Gaffer looked at a Clio 172 Cup (182 wasn't around at that point) she secured a monster discount on the car ( I think the price was about £10,500 OTR in the end ) hence residuals aren't so hot. Focus RS residuals are still good and they are extremely quick cars albeit a handful in day-to-day driving.
With the new Civic coming along very soon, the current Type-R will be dead shortly. The boy done good.
I am struggling to think of what to replace the CTR with. Either a VXT or a Monaro are right up there at the moment, but the VX is even more spartan, and truly apallingly screwed together compared to the CTR but the performance and the way that performance is accessible is fab, and I love it. Theey do appear to lose money hand over fist as well given the prices I've been looking at, but as a 2nd hand buyer that's good for me. The Monaro appeals because of the no-snobbery badge and V8 noise. Might be a bit big though, but that's not such a huge worry. The alternative is to go out on one and get an R34 Skyline. High running costs admittedly, but that's not such an issue given the rarity. I just want something a bit different.
charlieromeo said:
When I sent it in for it's second service I got a 1.6 newer model Civic and to be quite honest I couldn't tell the difference between that and the Type-R driving it normally. Sitting in it you could be in any other Japanese or european hatchback which is a bit rubbish if you bought it to be thrilled.
>> Edited by roop on Sunday 15th May 08:43
Dump the blower though and that 5v VAG 1.8 is a measly 125bhp and naff-all torque. My mother has one and it's apalling...!
As as aside, Civic Type-R's with Forced induction make 300bhp and 220lb.ft of torque from even lower rpm than the VAG unit.
As as aside, Civic Type-R's with Forced induction make 300bhp and 220lb.ft of torque from even lower rpm than the VAG unit.
mungo said:
Because it has no torque
nighthawk said:
We all should know by now that torque matters more then bhp
But then again, thats only a valid point if the transmission is poorly specd and can't transmit the available torque throughout the entire rev range.
hmmmm...torque definately helps to produce that grin factor. Its a well worn argument.Imho you can't have it both ways
C'est la guerre,mon amie
Hmmm... can't have it both ways?
How come the latest 2.3 litre in the Caterham CSR develops 260bhp and 200lb/ft?
Enough of this nonsense about putting superchargers on vtec engines as well. Hardly in the spirit of the high revving NA engines that Mr Honda advocated.
The present Civic Type-R is starting to reach the end of it's life as a competitive hot hatch. What with more powerful and torquier cars on the way I suspect Honda will be putting a much larger engine in the next generation car. I do hope they sort out the steering on the next one as well. Having jelly connecting the front wheels to the steering wheel was never a good idea in my opinion.
>> Edited by charlieromeo on Sunday 15th May 20:17
How come the latest 2.3 litre in the Caterham CSR develops 260bhp and 200lb/ft?
Enough of this nonsense about putting superchargers on vtec engines as well. Hardly in the spirit of the high revving NA engines that Mr Honda advocated.
The present Civic Type-R is starting to reach the end of it's life as a competitive hot hatch. What with more powerful and torquier cars on the way I suspect Honda will be putting a much larger engine in the next generation car. I do hope they sort out the steering on the next one as well. Having jelly connecting the front wheels to the steering wheel was never a good idea in my opinion.
>> Edited by charlieromeo on Sunday 15th May 20:17
as good as the 2.3 Cosworth unit is, it's not really a fair comparison. 1) the CTR engine complies with strict emissions laws 2) service intervals on the CTR are 9k (i think) and i'm sure that most CTR engines will get to 100k without incident 3) it's designed so that even bad drivers like myself can't stall it.
i dare say the K20A can be tuned to 250bhp reliably.
as for the lack of torque, the 2.4 (Accord lump) is probably a fair match for the 2.3 CSR... well except it hasn't been developed to a type-R spec (only a max 6800rpm) though i have a feeling the next civic will use a tweaked version of it.
what's wrong with the current civic IMHO ?
1) the steering is definitely lacking in feel and the EPS jumps about too much on rough surfaces.
2) it's a bit too comfortable and makes the wrong noises - too much road noise and too little engine & gearbox noise. oh and ditch the MPV styling.
i think the CTR review in Evo magazine summed it up by saying no matter how good the engine and gearbox are, it's never gonna drive like a Porsche 911. in fact, it doesn't drive as well as the orignal Integra Type-R (as many posts have mentioned before).
3) the i-VTEC has a wider and flatter power band, but it lacks the sweet spot that makes an N/A engine feel good to work... it seems 2.0l just aint big enough.
and on that note i shall rest...
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