Discussion
Hi guys
I found this thread very interesting reading as I am changing cars the other way to you guys :-) Ive had Honda Vtecs for the past 5 years and Im picking up my S2 Elise on June 1st. Luckily some of the issues/worries owners have experienced with their Elise wont be my problem as its a company car...but I must say from your comments I think it may take me a while to get used to doing 20K miles a year in the Elise.
I was really keen to have an S2000 but the tax burden was nearly treble that of the Elise. Luckily my partner has a comfy Volvo C70T5 and we wanted a convertible for fun at the w/e and for business travel for myself (gonna be taking the scenic router from now on) anyway I just wanted to offer some advice/comments on Honda ownership.
Running in - 600 miles, no VTEC until then. After that build it up gradually say 1000 revs per extra 100 miles travelled. By the time shes had her 1st service you should be using all of the rev range :-)...and yes the engines get better the more miles you do - prob around 5-10K miles before it really loosens up.
Reliability - well Ive done 75K miles in 2 years in my 94 Prelude Vtec, its seen the red line on many an occasion and has been absolutely faultless in every way. You really can abuse these engines and they just get on with the job...saying that the VTEC wont engage unless the engine is warm,you have good oil pressure etc and Honda are known to be conservative with the rev limits i.e. you can bounce it off the limiter all day - it could probably go another 1000rpm or so no probs....so they have 'dialled in' some elements to protect the engine from abuse.
Speed - Ive had friends at work, who , having never driven a Honda, and mis-read some reviews say' oh but they have to be thrashed' or 'the engines are gutless below 5000rpm' Well they may be gutless compared to a 4.5 Cerbera, but in reality are all quick cars out of the VTEC. e.g. My lude is putting out 160bhp before 5K revs and I could easily keep up with my mates 2.5V6 Cougar....as soon as the Vtec kicks in though Im gone :-) What Im saying is that I completely agree with the posts above in that its because there is such a transition when the Vtec kicks in, below that point it seems mundane in comaprison, although you are actually accelarating as quick as 90% of the other cars on the road today.
Grip/Launching - a few guys in the Honda-R club (www.honda-r.org.uk) have fitted Racelogic traction control to their CTR/ITR's. IMHO it is very difficult to get off the line in a FWD car with 200bhp....especially if its damp. In the past Ive been done by much more sedate machinery... Its best to short shift before VTEC into 2nd gear and then go for it....in the wet dont even bother :-) Tyres/suspension make a bit of difference...but not that much.
If you want any more info on Honda stuff then the forum (and the club itself) over at www.honda-r.org.uk is really friendly and helpful
cheers
bogie
I found this thread very interesting reading as I am changing cars the other way to you guys :-) Ive had Honda Vtecs for the past 5 years and Im picking up my S2 Elise on June 1st. Luckily some of the issues/worries owners have experienced with their Elise wont be my problem as its a company car...but I must say from your comments I think it may take me a while to get used to doing 20K miles a year in the Elise.
I was really keen to have an S2000 but the tax burden was nearly treble that of the Elise. Luckily my partner has a comfy Volvo C70T5 and we wanted a convertible for fun at the w/e and for business travel for myself (gonna be taking the scenic router from now on) anyway I just wanted to offer some advice/comments on Honda ownership.
Running in - 600 miles, no VTEC until then. After that build it up gradually say 1000 revs per extra 100 miles travelled. By the time shes had her 1st service you should be using all of the rev range :-)...and yes the engines get better the more miles you do - prob around 5-10K miles before it really loosens up.
Reliability - well Ive done 75K miles in 2 years in my 94 Prelude Vtec, its seen the red line on many an occasion and has been absolutely faultless in every way. You really can abuse these engines and they just get on with the job...saying that the VTEC wont engage unless the engine is warm,you have good oil pressure etc and Honda are known to be conservative with the rev limits i.e. you can bounce it off the limiter all day - it could probably go another 1000rpm or so no probs....so they have 'dialled in' some elements to protect the engine from abuse.
Speed - Ive had friends at work, who , having never driven a Honda, and mis-read some reviews say' oh but they have to be thrashed' or 'the engines are gutless below 5000rpm' Well they may be gutless compared to a 4.5 Cerbera, but in reality are all quick cars out of the VTEC. e.g. My lude is putting out 160bhp before 5K revs and I could easily keep up with my mates 2.5V6 Cougar....as soon as the Vtec kicks in though Im gone :-) What Im saying is that I completely agree with the posts above in that its because there is such a transition when the Vtec kicks in, below that point it seems mundane in comaprison, although you are actually accelarating as quick as 90% of the other cars on the road today.
Grip/Launching - a few guys in the Honda-R club (www.honda-r.org.uk) have fitted Racelogic traction control to their CTR/ITR's. IMHO it is very difficult to get off the line in a FWD car with 200bhp....especially if its damp. In the past Ive been done by much more sedate machinery... Its best to short shift before VTEC into 2nd gear and then go for it....in the wet dont even bother :-) Tyres/suspension make a bit of difference...but not that much.
If you want any more info on Honda stuff then the forum (and the club itself) over at www.honda-r.org.uk is really friendly and helpful
cheers
bogie
I'm toying with the idea of fitting Racelogic traction control to my CTR, but i have my doubts if it is really worth the hastle. 
I'm not one for burning ppl off at the lights etc... but i understand that my tyres may appreciate it and my acceleration for that matter.
Any input from ppl reading this who have fitted Racelogic TC would be received with avid interest. Also, what affect on my insurance will it have ?
Anyhow, while i'm here i might as well say that driving my CTR is an absolute blast
I even had some guy today driving a Clio Sport 172 , who kept up suprisingly well initially, until about 80 anyway , who asked if he could sit my car , obviously i obliged after removing the keys. He just kept going on about how cool my car was ! 
It may look a little unconventional but it is still sex on wheels to me ! 
I couldn't be happier with any other vehicle for the money + 10k !
>> Edited by Smudge021 on Saturday 11th May 20:09
I'm not one for burning ppl off at the lights etc... but i understand that my tyres may appreciate it and my acceleration for that matter. Any input from ppl reading this who have fitted Racelogic TC would be received with avid interest. Also, what affect on my insurance will it have ?
Anyhow, while i'm here i might as well say that driving my CTR is an absolute blast
I even had some guy today driving a Clio Sport 172 , who kept up suprisingly well initially, until about 80 anyway , who asked if he could sit my car , obviously i obliged after removing the keys. He just kept going on about how cool my car was ! It may look a little unconventional but it is still sex on wheels to me ! I couldn't be happier with any other vehicle for the money + 10k ! >> Edited by Smudge021 on Saturday 11th May 20:09
quote:
in fact the CTR is faster than the mid-engined 3.0 V6 Clio
The New Car Guide in Top Gear Magazine actually puts the CTR and V6 Clio the same for acceleration, but gives the Clio a whole whopping extra 1mph at the top end. Guess it depends where you get your stats from.
The hype wagon is picking up speed with regard to the forthcoming RS Focus, but IMHO i don't think it can topple the CTR. Last i heard they had tweaked it so that it would out accelerate the CTR to 62mph at the cost of topping out at just under 140mph. I'm not sure how reliable this info is but whatever it ends up being i think that overall, it will fall short of the CTR.
The comparison with the Focus RS will certainly be interesting, there was talk of limiting the speed because they didn't want it to beat the Mondeo ST220. The RS will certainly have more torque than the Civic with a turbo charged engine but what about the retail price? A few magazines have quoted it to around the 20k mark which IMHO is way too expensive for a small FWD car.
It will start competing with the likes of the Impreza and I know that the Scooby would get my vote out of the two. The Subaru also has 4WD and a much more imposing road presence, would you really be intimidated with a Focus behind you?
>> Edited by adeewuff on Sunday 12th May 16:31
It will start competing with the likes of the Impreza and I know that the Scooby would get my vote out of the two. The Subaru also has 4WD and a much more imposing road presence, would you really be intimidated with a Focus behind you?
>> Edited by adeewuff on Sunday 12th May 16:31
Impreza over Focus RS? Fair enough. But I tested an Impreza WRX when replacing my old Turbo, and it wasn't terribly exciting. Slightly more refined, not quite as fast and generally just the same thing, which meant understeer and poor throttle response.
So I replaced my Subaru with a Civic Type R. And it's probably faster (certainly over 80mph, though my front tyres will no doubt scream that the Subaru has better traction). It also has quite readily discernible limits, which you can drive right up to. The Impreza felt agricultural in comparison. I think, therefore, that the Civic is a genuine bargain, a giant killer, and the start of a new cult.
But there's no way I'd give up the Elise which I run alongside the Civic. It's just lovely. Although maybe I appreciate it more because it's not my main car...
So I replaced my Subaru with a Civic Type R. And it's probably faster (certainly over 80mph, though my front tyres will no doubt scream that the Subaru has better traction). It also has quite readily discernible limits, which you can drive right up to. The Impreza felt agricultural in comparison. I think, therefore, that the Civic is a genuine bargain, a giant killer, and the start of a new cult.
But there's no way I'd give up the Elise which I run alongside the Civic. It's just lovely. Although maybe I appreciate it more because it's not my main car...
Mine is red & it's true.
How long did everyone have to wait for their cars?
I ordered mine on 1 March & picked it up on 24 April. I was told that there was a three month waiting list but couldn't be promised a firm date. 8 weeks of hell waiting for the car, looking at pics & then ??years of joy.
How long did everyone have to wait for their cars?
I ordered mine on 1 March & picked it up on 24 April. I was told that there was a three month waiting list but couldn't be promised a firm date. 8 weeks of hell waiting for the car, looking at pics & then ??years of joy.
quote:
Fair enough. But I tested an Impreza WRX when replacing my old Turbo, and it wasn't terribly exciting
Sadly the new generation of WRX has lost that raw feeling to it, and has become entombed in cotton wool in comparison to the original. The 300 or STi are better bets, but that puts up the price.
Has anyone bought this weeks edition of Autocar? They have a real go at the Civic Type-R about it's wet weather handling on a track. Can any of you guys confirm/deny this?
Reading the article made me feel a bit pissed off to be honest mainly because if it's such a big problem why the hell didn't they mention it earlier?!!
It still won't stop me collecting my CTR though and having some fun in it.
Reading the article made me feel a bit pissed off to be honest mainly because if it's such a big problem why the hell didn't they mention it earlier?!!
It still won't stop me collecting my CTR though and having some fun in it.
I've not seen the review yet so can't comment on the article.
What I can say is that--
Putting 200bhp through the front wheels - what do you think it would be like pressing on in the wet?
From my experience the CTR is so much better to drive in the rain than the Elise. Better vision & ventilation, ABS & decent steering, & certainly no worse than any other car I've driven.
I'm not a big fan of the Bridgestones though, they're good in the dry once moving but as noted previously the CTR is difficult to get off the line in the dry even with the right tyre pressures & 1300 miles into the tyres life. 200bhp, what do you expect??? blah blah blah. Well I don't expect to have a problem feeding just 2-2500rpm from the line, regardless of the comments on the Type R website about this being typical. I will be looking at other tyres come renewal time (8-10k according to EVO mag & Honda handbook) & am open to suggestions.
A quick note though,
Watch the back of the car. A couple of times the back has skipped sideways when taking a curve, when a channel has been dug & filled in on the road. These experiences have not been at huge velocities either 40-50MPH. I suppose it is the price to pay for a stiff setup.
What I can say is that--
Putting 200bhp through the front wheels - what do you think it would be like pressing on in the wet?
From my experience the CTR is so much better to drive in the rain than the Elise. Better vision & ventilation, ABS & decent steering, & certainly no worse than any other car I've driven.
I'm not a big fan of the Bridgestones though, they're good in the dry once moving but as noted previously the CTR is difficult to get off the line in the dry even with the right tyre pressures & 1300 miles into the tyres life. 200bhp, what do you expect??? blah blah blah. Well I don't expect to have a problem feeding just 2-2500rpm from the line, regardless of the comments on the Type R website about this being typical. I will be looking at other tyres come renewal time (8-10k according to EVO mag & Honda handbook) & am open to suggestions.
A quick note though,
Watch the back of the car. A couple of times the back has skipped sideways when taking a curve, when a channel has been dug & filled in on the road. These experiences have not been at huge velocities either 40-50MPH. I suppose it is the price to pay for a stiff setup.
It looks as though the CTR will clock up serious mileage in my hands. Me & the missus are off up to Scotland for the day in a couple of weeks. A 550mile round trip in a day regardless of the weather, I know that the CTR will be safe, reliable, comfortable & fast. How many other affordable cars would you attempt this in?
Yes, they did mention that the CTR was prone to lift off oversteer but why is this a problem for them? The Peugeot 205 GTi and 'lift off oversteer' are always mentioned in the same sentence as if this is a complement to it, so why not the CTR? It doesn't matter anyway since I always tend to back off the pace in the rain, which is a natural reaction for any Elise driver.
I don't see a problem but in all the other glowing reviews Autocar have done about the CTR they have never mentioned it's wet weather handling before. It seems they only wait to mention it when it has more dramatic effect...
I don't see a problem but in all the other glowing reviews Autocar have done about the CTR they have never mentioned it's wet weather handling before. It seems they only wait to mention it when it has more dramatic effect...
These plebs, sorry journalists, only get the cars for a short period of time (usually) & thrash & abuse the cars to death.
If anyone has driven fast, light RWD cars before then they will know when to press each pedal & when to slow down.
They have got to compare like to like cars & say that they are comparitively bad or good. A CTR compared to a S1 Elise does not have a problem with lift off oversteer & is absolutely fantastic in the wet.
Like for like what do you compare a CTR to? FWD, 200BHP & 167bhp/ton, there doesn't seem to be much choice?
If anyone has driven fast, light RWD cars before then they will know when to press each pedal & when to slow down.
They have got to compare like to like cars & say that they are comparitively bad or good. A CTR compared to a S1 Elise does not have a problem with lift off oversteer & is absolutely fantastic in the wet.
Like for like what do you compare a CTR to? FWD, 200BHP & 167bhp/ton, there doesn't seem to be much choice?
I can only think of two other cars that can compare to the CTR, and they aren't out yet! That is the Focus RS and the Mini Cooper S 'Works'.
The Focus, as mentioned before, loses out because of the price difference. The Mini Cooper S 'Works' has been lapping the Goodwood Circuit faster than the CTR and has a similar amount of power, but at what cost?
The back seats are practically useless, the boot is comparable to the Lotus Elise size wise and it has been hinted at that it will be more expensive than the CTR!
The Focus, as mentioned before, loses out because of the price difference. The Mini Cooper S 'Works' has been lapping the Goodwood Circuit faster than the CTR and has a similar amount of power, but at what cost?
The back seats are practically useless, the boot is comparable to the Lotus Elise size wise and it has been hinted at that it will be more expensive than the CTR!
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