New BMW's getting stolen using blank BMW keys
Discussion
contracttor said:
The elephant in the room is as far a information security is concerned once you have physical access all bets are off. This still leaves the question how does one get access to the obd port in the first place?
Either a vulnerability in the key transmission is being exploited and needs addressing or it's standard social engineering (signal blocking and relying on people not verifying that the car is locked). If its the former then BMW should be forced to address it. If its the latter then the option to have audible verification turned on should be offered by BMW at reduced cost
Brick through the window then putting an arm down connecting the device to the OBD port does the trick too. Alarm sensors do not monitor that far forward in the cabin apparently. 1M been stolen like this caught on CCTV showing the entire process they went through. From fully locked to being pushed away (so no excessive noise) in a few mins apparently. Fully story here http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66...Either a vulnerability in the key transmission is being exploited and needs addressing or it's standard social engineering (signal blocking and relying on people not verifying that the car is locked). If its the former then BMW should be forced to address it. If its the latter then the option to have audible verification turned on should be offered by BMW at reduced cost
Fascinating thread this, I'd missed it as I don't look in the BMW section much.
This doesn't seem to be limited to BMW though. My 2008 Honda Civic was stolen from outside my house in December. It was on the street outside my window - heard an alarm going off, by the time I'd got up and peek out of the curtains my car was driving off down the road. 30 seconds or so start to finish. Pretty sure no cloning of my keys happened - spare was locked away at home, and the last time my main key was out of my possession was several months earlier. It hadn't been locked or unlocked for days at that point either.
I can only assume they had a Honda equivalent of what's described in this thread, got physical access to the diagnostic port (hence the alarm going off) and managed to use that to start the car and drive it away. It seemed very strange at the time, partly because a 3 year old grey diesel Civic can't be high on a hitlist to steal to order, but also the bypassing of an immobiliser which I thought was impenetrable - hence all the tales of breaking into houses or threatening owners for keys.
This doesn't seem to be limited to BMW though. My 2008 Honda Civic was stolen from outside my house in December. It was on the street outside my window - heard an alarm going off, by the time I'd got up and peek out of the curtains my car was driving off down the road. 30 seconds or so start to finish. Pretty sure no cloning of my keys happened - spare was locked away at home, and the last time my main key was out of my possession was several months earlier. It hadn't been locked or unlocked for days at that point either.
I can only assume they had a Honda equivalent of what's described in this thread, got physical access to the diagnostic port (hence the alarm going off) and managed to use that to start the car and drive it away. It seemed very strange at the time, partly because a 3 year old grey diesel Civic can't be high on a hitlist to steal to order, but also the bypassing of an immobiliser which I thought was impenetrable - hence all the tales of breaking into houses or threatening owners for keys.
Jon999 said:
contracttor said:
The elephant in the room is as far a information security is concerned once you have physical access all bets are off. This still leaves the question how does one get access to the obd port in the first place?
Either a vulnerability in the key transmission is being exploited and needs addressing or it's standard social engineering (signal blocking and relying on people not verifying that the car is locked). If its the former then BMW should be forced to address it. If its the latter then the option to have audible verification turned on should be offered by BMW at reduced cost
Brick through the window then putting an arm down connecting the device to the OBD port does the trick too. Alarm sensors do not monitor that far forward in the cabin apparently. 1M been stolen like this caught on CCTV showing the entire process they went through. From fully locked to being pushed away (so no excessive noise) in a few mins apparently. Fully story here http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66...Either a vulnerability in the key transmission is being exploited and needs addressing or it's standard social engineering (signal blocking and relying on people not verifying that the car is locked). If its the former then BMW should be forced to address it. If its the latter then the option to have audible verification turned on should be offered by BMW at reduced cost
I think I'll be booking mine in ASAP at the nearest Pentagon dealer for some Supaglass security film to be installed.
My 320d has been broken in to twice in 4 months on my drive. It's the same little t
t as they have overturned the car in exactly the same way and twice eft my digital camera behind. First time was a sat nav from the boot and the second nothing.
Both times no forced locks, no broken glass. And I always lock the car and check the handles. My neighbour's has been done too which is a BMW and VW Eos.
I am reporting this issue to Watchdog and BMW directly as I am disgusted that a quality manufacturer can get away with keeping this quiet. I'd bet my house on the fact that this has been discussed at board level and a strategy for communicating it (or rather keeping it quiet) has been devised.
Not impressed. Oh well, at least I'm not in Birmingham where it would have been stolen by now.
t as they have overturned the car in exactly the same way and twice eft my digital camera behind. First time was a sat nav from the boot and the second nothing. Both times no forced locks, no broken glass. And I always lock the car and check the handles. My neighbour's has been done too which is a BMW and VW Eos.
I am reporting this issue to Watchdog and BMW directly as I am disgusted that a quality manufacturer can get away with keeping this quiet. I'd bet my house on the fact that this has been discussed at board level and a strategy for communicating it (or rather keeping it quiet) has been devised.
Not impressed. Oh well, at least I'm not in Birmingham where it would have been stolen by now.
From what I am reading these thefts seem mainly in the South which I assume makes it easy for the cars to be shipped abroad.
Out of curiosity has anyone had a Insurance renewal quote lately ? If so has there been a big price hike ?
My concern is the Insurance on our cars is going to escalate and its only a matter of time.
Out of curiosity has anyone had a Insurance renewal quote lately ? If so has there been a big price hike ?
My concern is the Insurance on our cars is going to escalate and its only a matter of time.
TX1 said:
From what I am reading these thefts seem mainly in the South which I assume makes it easy for the cars to be shipped abroad.
Out of curiosity has anyone had a Insurance renewal quote lately ? If so has there been a big price hike ?
My concern is the Insurance on our cars is going to escalate and its only a matter of time.
BMW quotes coming back very cheap for me relative to other marques still, but I'm in one of the lowest theft risk postcodes so might not reflect this story much.Out of curiosity has anyone had a Insurance renewal quote lately ? If so has there been a big price hike ?
My concern is the Insurance on our cars is going to escalate and its only a matter of time.
Now, with an E92 to protect ... which Tracker would I choose if I went down that route ?
Tracker themselves work on VHF/GPS/GSM, etc .... but you can't change it between cars
....whereas others such as SmartTrak and Cobra can be moved between cars when you sell but are 'just' GSM/GPS which seems susceptible to jammers - or do people really use these ??
I see the latest expensive offerings provide the ability to send a signal to the car to shut it down when it comes to a halt - though they are very expensive at around £700 before subs ...
Or shall I just rely on my GAP insurance and take the hike on normal insurance if unlucky enough to have to claim ?
Ah, decisions, decisions ....
Tracker themselves work on VHF/GPS/GSM, etc .... but you can't change it between cars
....whereas others such as SmartTrak and Cobra can be moved between cars when you sell but are 'just' GSM/GPS which seems susceptible to jammers - or do people really use these ??
I see the latest expensive offerings provide the ability to send a signal to the car to shut it down when it comes to a halt - though they are very expensive at around £700 before subs ...
Or shall I just rely on my GAP insurance and take the hike on normal insurance if unlucky enough to have to claim ?
Ah, decisions, decisions ....
i think there is a simple fix here..
this link says ...
http://pinoutsguide.com/CarElectronics/bmw_obd_ii_...
pin 16 is the battery live, so if you simply disconnect pin 16 and then splice it into pin 1 then the port will only be live when the car ignition is on
well i think thats correct anyhow..!
im guessing this is what some companies are doing to fix this
GP
this link says ...
http://pinoutsguide.com/CarElectronics/bmw_obd_ii_...
pin 16 is the battery live, so if you simply disconnect pin 16 and then splice it into pin 1 then the port will only be live when the car ignition is on
well i think thats correct anyhow..!
im guessing this is what some companies are doing to fix this
GP
neilkav said:
Unfortunaltey last week I woke up to find my 6 month old 330im Sport conveertable had been stolen from my drive in Birmingham. at first i thought i had been burgled, and my spare key had been taken, but i checked and i still had the spare key.
the car hadnt been towed either as the space it was in would be too small to get a truck behind it, and no broken glass. after speaking to the police, it became apparent that a large number of 1 and 3 series BMW's has been stolen using blank BMW keys. i called Sytner where i bought the car, and yep the salesman confirmed that a large number of cars recently purchased from them had recently been stolen ( i bet they dont tell that to new customers)
the police basically told me not to buy another high end BMW as they are very easy to steal using these keys, so if any of you out there think you car is safe, please think again, and use a garage if you have one.
I was so shocked when I found this thread! Our BMW was stolen in Birmingham from the work car park (which has security guards and CCTV) a few days before you posted this. The police have been a bit less communicative with us and when we have tried to call it didn't get very far! The other strange this is we purchased the car from Syther too. I was informed that as it was an ex demo there should in fact be 3 keys and not the standard 2 and it happened the day the new V5 came through. The chap we brought the car from has been very attentive and called every week and offered to do us a deal on a more expensive car. He did mention other people having their cars stolen and wasn't as suprised as I expected he would be... maybe I am paranoid as it happend 3 weeks after we brought it... who knows? the car hadnt been towed either as the space it was in would be too small to get a truck behind it, and no broken glass. after speaking to the police, it became apparent that a large number of 1 and 3 series BMW's has been stolen using blank BMW keys. i called Sytner where i bought the car, and yep the salesman confirmed that a large number of cars recently purchased from them had recently been stolen ( i bet they dont tell that to new customers)
the police basically told me not to buy another high end BMW as they are very easy to steal using these keys, so if any of you out there think you car is safe, please think again, and use a garage if you have one.
The very weird thing about it all is that we went to a different dealership today and mentioned it to him and as soon as we mentioned no keys he looked very shocked and literally ran to his colleges and then his boss to tell him about what had happened, he told us he was very sorry and then his boss came over and said he would do anything he could to help??
I love good customer service, don't get me wrong but something doesn't seem right here, or is it me?
The window did appear to have been smashed so it is possible they did code blank keys but it appears to have been the driver side and not the passenger that was smashed. We are still waiting for the police report but if I find out more will let you know.
I too am concerned that BMW don't seemed to be doing much about it but the dealerships were very quiet when we went recently and usually you have to go inside to speak to someone and this weekend they ran out to us as soon as we walked onto the forecourt!
mollyjester said:
I was so shocked when I found this thread! Our BMW was stolen in Birmingham from the work car park (which has security guards and CCTV) a few days before you posted this. The police have been a bit less communicative with us and when we have tried to call it didn't get very far! The other strange this is we purchased the car from Syther too. I was informed that as it was an ex demo there should in fact be 3 keys and not the standard 2 and it happened the day the new V5 came through. The chap we brought the car from has been very attentive and called every week and offered to do us a deal on a more expensive car. He did mention other people having their cars stolen and wasn't as suprised as I expected he would be... maybe I am paranoid as it happend 3 weeks after we brought it... who knows?
The very weird thing about it all is that we went to a different dealership today and mentioned it to him and as soon as we mentioned no keys he looked very shocked and literally ran to his colleges and then his boss to tell him about what had happened, he told us he was very sorry and then his boss came over and said he would do anything he could to help??
I love good customer service, don't get me wrong but something doesn't seem right here, or is it me?
The window did appear to have been smashed so it is possible they did code blank keys but it appears to have been the driver side and not the passenger that was smashed. We are still waiting for the police report but if I find out more will let you know.
I too am concerned that BMW don't seemed to be doing much about it but the dealerships were very quiet when we went recently and usually you have to go inside to speak to someone and this weekend they ran out to us as soon as we walked onto the forecourt!
- every new bmw/mini is currently supplied with 2 keys. No more, no less. Whether its a M3 GTS or a Mini First.The very weird thing about it all is that we went to a different dealership today and mentioned it to him and as soon as we mentioned no keys he looked very shocked and literally ran to his colleges and then his boss to tell him about what had happened, he told us he was very sorry and then his boss came over and said he would do anything he could to help??
I love good customer service, don't get me wrong but something doesn't seem right here, or is it me?
The window did appear to have been smashed so it is possible they did code blank keys but it appears to have been the driver side and not the passenger that was smashed. We are still waiting for the police report but if I find out more will let you know.
I too am concerned that BMW don't seemed to be doing much about it but the dealerships were very quiet when we went recently and usually you have to go inside to speak to someone and this weekend they ran out to us as soon as we walked onto the forecourt!
- sorry to hear about this. would be interested to hear how the insurance treat you if/when it goes down that route? keep us posted...
edit to change resulting key debate
Edited by AOK on Tuesday 17th April 19:22
AOK said:
- every bmw/mini is supplied with 2 keys currently. No more, no less. Whether its a M3 GTS or a Mini First.
....
My M6 has 3 keys. 2 standard and a black emergency key that allows me to unlock the driver's door, open the glovebox and put the key into the housing and then into the ignition to start the car. This flat black key lives in my wallet.....
Despite BMW appearing to stick their fingers in their ears and going lalalalalala, in reality you would think they are frantically trying to come up with something.
How long before the insurance companies refuse to cover all 05-11 cars, or impose massive premiums, rendering them unsaleable for both existing BMW stock and all existing owners?
Having said that does this problem only affect BMW though?
How long before the insurance companies refuse to cover all 05-11 cars, or impose massive premiums, rendering them unsaleable for both existing BMW stock and all existing owners?
Having said that does this problem only affect BMW though?
contracttor said:
AOK said:
- every bmw/mini is supplied with 2 keys currently. No more, no less. Whether its a M3 GTS or a Mini First.
....
My M6 has 3 keys. 2 standard and a black emergency key that allows me to unlock the driver's door, open the glovebox and put the key into the housing and then into the ignition to start the car. This flat black key lives in my wallet.....
We just bought a crook lock for the car based on these threads although not in a high risk area. I see it is not a perfect deterrent but any effort to make it more difficult.
Just had our renewal through and was a lot higher than before but bought this car 2 months ago to replace a written off car where negligence for the incident has not been finalised yet (will be resolved in our favour but we have to take the hit until finished). Also previous car was Vectra so would expect a hike anyway.
I have just had my black BMW 335d - YH11 HJD stolen from my drive way this morning. I am one hundred percent it was locked cause I drove home, took out my golf clubs and checked it was locked. Went to be 12am last night and woke this morning to go to work only to find the car is gone. Having read through this thread and others I am amazed how BMW aren't doing anything about this.
Feel quite sick about this. Not sure I want another BMW even when the insurance pays out.
Feel quite sick about this. Not sure I want another BMW even when the insurance pays out.
This really isn't good enough from BMW. I had one car stolen (R32, broke into the house for the keys) a couple of years ago and don't want to have to go through that hassle again.
Off the back of all this I moved the OBD socket last night on my E92 and am having a Clifford Blackjax fitted later this week. I realise the car could still be lifted but don't want to make it that easy for them.
Off the back of all this I moved the OBD socket last night on my E92 and am having a Clifford Blackjax fitted later this week. I realise the car could still be lifted but don't want to make it that easy for them.
the insurance companies are 100% aware of these thefts, all you need to do to check is go online to one of the compare webites and see how much your quote is, everyone is my office tried it last week with a few different BMW's, they are now charging a fortune to insure them, and asking for huge voluntary excess's.
So it's happening already then.
Buyers will just scrub BMW of their list now then, why would you buy one if your paying the insurance premium of a ferarri with a big excess.
Have the resale values taken a hit yet in the trade books I wonder?
As we all know values are dictated solely by supply and demand and if the insurance thing is true demand will fall off a cliff to virtually zero.......
Buyers will just scrub BMW of their list now then, why would you buy one if your paying the insurance premium of a ferarri with a big excess.
Have the resale values taken a hit yet in the trade books I wonder?
As we all know values are dictated solely by supply and demand and if the insurance thing is true demand will fall off a cliff to virtually zero.......
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