New BMW's getting stolen using blank BMW keys

[anonymous-user]

My Z4 is in for a brake fluid service next week. Service manager said the software update was coming but BMW had not told them it was ready yet.

[ncbbmw]

Cheib said:

Just rang the BMW 0800 number to get the latest info....I have an E70 X5 owned from new which was registered in 2007 so comes under the recall.

I asked them why they hadn't contacted me given I bought the car new and the car is still covered by the extended warranty. After several evasive answers I was finally informed that the "fix" is not a recall but an "enhancement"....as such they do not need to issue a recall. Nice to know BMW are trying their very,very hardest not to actually look after their customers.

Just rang my dealer and asked the same question "YOU will be getting a recall letter".

Piss up/brewery.......

The people at BMW will call the 'fix' an enhancement because thats what it is, for a manufacturer its only a recall when VOSA are involved and all current ownership details are obtained from the DVLA and the manufacturer sends out the letters, I'll leave others to debate weather they should be doing that.

The person working in the Dealer should also say 'enhancement' but recall is far more widely used and understood, its also more effective at getting Customer's to take their cars to have the work done, although for this fix I doubt it will be too hard to convince them.

For those unsure, as it is a 'enhancement' the Selling / Servicing Dealer is responsible for sending out the letters, some dealers will be better at doing this than others so you may not get a letter that quickly, also if its a large Dealer there will be a lot of vehicles so they will likely send out the letters in batches over a period of weeks, no one's going to cope with 1,000's of customers ringing to book in the same week let alone day. As a result you may get more than one letter or none at all if you bought the car outside the network.

Incidently BMW Dealers are measured on ensuring that 'enhancement' work gets done and of course they get paid for it so its in their interest to action the 'fix' but the volume of affected cars will no doubt mean a few upsets along the way.

Likewise the speed of doing the work is going to be governed by what 'tech' equipment is needed to do it, assuming its going to be done by DIS most dealers would only be able to do 2-3 cars at a time max, lets hope its a quick 15 minute update.

The comment from BMW regarding having your car serviced by a Main Dealer comes in to play here as modern BMW's (and likely most other makes) have their Electronic Systems updated with enhancements and minor software tweaks on a regular basis, just like your Windows PC, not taking the car to a dealer means the car won't have them as the Indies are unlikely to have access to the data so if the cars hasn't been to a Dealer for awhile the 'fix' could take a lot longer, maybe all day as the system will want to install all the updates not just the Key Fix.

My advice would be to get on to your chosen Dealer as soon as someone on here states they've had a letter, get in quick!

Maybe think German, put your towel in the Dealers Car Park now to reserve your place.

[Balita Pinoy]

The following article on the BMW thefts matter may be a little more help. The research done by Balita Pinoy (cursory though it was) in the two days after the Watchdog program shows the car/insurance industry in the UK almost paranoid in keeping the matter under wraps.

Unless BMW come up with an adequate solution to the problem, as well as showing a positive attitude to after care solutions for existing owners, they are in great danger of losing a previously good reputation.

One serious matter for existing owners of BMW's to consider is advice to move/adapt the ports; this could prove a liability if the cars are still under warranty.

http://www.balitapinoy.net/journal/802147/BMW_Ange...

[youngsyr]

It's probably worth pointing out that just because your car has had the update, it doesn't mean it's safe from being broken in to, with the resulting repair bill and possibly insurance claim if they drill the lock (will cost much more than your excess to replace the lockset)/scratch the door, as the would-be thief won't know whether the software has been updated and will probably chance his arm anyway.

Assuming this software fix does work and eventually stops these thefts in their tracks, if your car is visible and accessible from the street, I would still use another form of visible security for the next six months at least, just to stop anyone breaking in to your car on the off chance.

A disklok plus a cheap rape alarm connected to the OBD II port cover should do it.

If you're leaving your car anywhere high risk, it would be worth fitting a battery master switch from Richbrook too for the sake of £20.

[eliot]

I really cant see BMW refusing a warranty claim for a blown engine, duff paintwork, knackered windows, seats, gearboxes or suspension just because you have moved your OBD port.

[Balita Pinoy]

A bit of clarification, most warranties state that work must be carried out by dealers (if under warranty). If a car owner got out a screwdriver and did it, the company could say the warranty is invalid; just a thought. If a dealer did the work I imagine there should be no problem.

[don'tbesilly]

Balita Pinoy said:

A bit of clarification, most warranties state that work must be carried out by dealers (if under warranty). If a car owner got out a screwdriver and did it, the company could say the warranty is invalid; just a thought. If a dealer did the work I imagine there should be no problem.

eliot said:

I really cant see BMW refusing a warranty claim for a blown engine, duff paintwork, knackered windows, seats, gearboxes or suspension just because you have moved your OBD port.

+1

[youngsyr]

Balita Pinoy said:

A bit of clarification, most warranties state that work must be carried out by dealers (if under warranty). If a car owner got out a screwdriver and did it, the company could say the warranty is invalid; just a thought. If a dealer did the work I imagine there should be no problem.

IANAL, but my understanding is that as long as the work is done to a professional standard and uses parts at least as good as oem, it doesn't matter who does it , it is illegal for BMW to refuse a warranty claim. It's part of the EU competition laws - car manufacturers are not allowed to create monopolies by invalidating their warranty for non-main dealer work.

As I understand it, this is part of how this whole issue has arisen - BMW have to allow independent traders access to the equipment to copy new keys. They cannot reserve the right to create new keys for themselves as it would create a monopoly.

[c3m]

youngsyr said:

IANAL, but my understanding is that as long as the work is done to a professional standard and uses parts at least as good as oem, it doesn't matter who does it , it is illegal for BMW to refuse a warranty claim. It's part of the EU competition laws - car manufacturers are not allowed to create monopolies by invalidating their warranty for non-main dealer work.

As I understand it, this is part of how this whole issue has arisen - BMW have to allow independent traders access to the equipment to copy new keys. They cannot reserve the right to create new keys for themselves as it would create a monopoly.

That's true but it's missing a very important point - as far as I know, this only applies during the manufacturer's inclusive warranty when buying new (as it makes sense - they shouldn't have to force you to go to them and cannot also turn you away if something breaks and you choose to go to them, as long as you didn't perform work on the car that's not up their standard). It does not apply to any extended warranty though, as far as I'm aware.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[contracttor]

youngsyr said:

IANAL, but my understanding is that as long as the work is done to a professional standard and uses parts at least as good as oem, it doesn't matter who does it , it is illegal for BMW to refuse a warranty claim. It's part of the EU competition laws - car manufacturers are not allowed to create monopolies by invalidating their warranty for non-main dealer work.

As I understand it, this is part of how this whole issue has arisen - BMW have to allow independent traders access to the equipment to copy new keys. They cannot reserve the right to create new keys for themselves as it would create a monopoly.

that's fine for the first 3 years but the AUC is in fact an insurance policy and not a warranty

[kane00]

v8mo said:

I dont mean to sound funny or paranoid but last weekend (2 weeks after my car was stolen) a few friends and I were having a crepe at Hampstead crepe (pretty well known place) which requires you to queue outside for an unreasonable amount of time, being a petrolhead I always keep an eye on the road, there was a peugeot 607 with foreign number plates driving up and down that street, after a couple of hour, going back to a friends to pick up something before going to another friends, we saw the same car driving around in Maida Vale and half hour later we saw it driving up in Swiss Cottage.

Now, these are all affluent areas where most properties lack secure car parks and you regularly see Astons and Maserati's parked on road side let alone countless BMWs and German cars. I dont mean to be racist or be stereo-typing but there were 4 Eastern European guys in that car seemingly driving at low speeds and considering where most of these stolen cars end up, I reckon they were vetting the areas for potential targets. If my theory is correct and BMW is looking for a fix in the next 8 weeks, I reckon these guys are going to milk it in the next few weeks before potentially being out of job so I think the police need to pick up their game, more street patrols, more stop and search of foreign cars etc.

There could be many explanations for that, and I imagine they would more likely be cruising the quiet residential streets, rather than the main strip by the crepe van. Then again, someone tried to have my E60 away 5 mins from there a couple of months back, so who knows...!

[youngsyr]

contracttor said:

youngsyr said:

IANAL, but my understanding is that as long as the work is done to a professional standard and uses parts at least as good as oem, it doesn't matter who does it , it is illegal for BMW to refuse a warranty claim. It's part of the EU competition laws - car manufacturers are not allowed to create monopolies by invalidating their warranty for non-main dealer work.

As I understand it, this is part of how this whole issue has arisen - BMW have to allow independent traders access to the equipment to copy new keys. They cannot reserve the right to create new keys for themselves as it would create a monopoly.

that's fine for the first 3 years but the AUC is in fact an insurance policy and not a warranty

Oh right, yes I was writing about the original manufacturer's warranty, not any extended warranty.

However, do you know if it has been tested in court on extended warranties? Again, I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is that "unreasonable" clauses in contracts with private individuals (including insurance policies) can be overturned in court.

Taking this one step further, I wouldn't be surprised if EU laws extends to private contracts and so the extended warranties cannot require you to have work done by a certain business for any further claim under the warranty to be valid, even if it specifically states that in the contract, but I've never looked into it.

[Band0]

VERN UK said:

Very valid point pal.....I hope we don't go back to the days of car jacking @knife point, house break ins etc, I know these still happen, but they are rare......I can see that changing!

What is rare? jackings and "car key burglaries" as they are often known.
The later has been going on since the turn of the 51 plate (for all makes and models) and remains a significant issue today.
However as issues, such as this topic come along, and also the "defrosting" thefts we get in the winter, basically having your car stolen while you leave it warming up on your driveway, the need to break into your house for the keys reduces.
Jackings are committed by a very small minority of offenders and are NOT a current problem.

don'tbesilly said:

imuir said:

Band0 said:

The kit to do Audi is coming on the market very soon - don't bother
I'd get a Merc....

How do you know this ?

Keep your eye on the top of the page,and the moving banner:

http://www.keyprogtools.com/index.php/bmw-key-prog...

I've already seen it !

BMWdrc said:

Not sure if anyone is awhere but the so call expert Ron Cliff on Watchdog last night is also the very same person who is the UK importer for the EDILOCK system, which is the system that the scum bags are using on your cars. It only took 5 mins to find this out on a google search. Did no one at the BBC check into this????

Ron CLIFF has some extensive knowledge of vehicle security and claims to have 30 years experience as a "master lock smith"
As for the sale of the EdiLock - the issue lies with the (so called) legitimate sale and purchase of these devices. My thought is they should be licensed. This is something that Government should be enforcing on devices such as this.

ik186 said:

Can I ask a very silly question which may have already been covered, how are these thieves locating the cars? My M3 was stolen from outside my house at 3am, do these guys drive around during the day and note addresses of their targets or do they follow you home or is it just pure luck that they come out at night and just come across your car?
Do you think they get your address from 3rd parties, I mean I had my plates changed at Halfords and you have to provide your address to these guys and the next day the car was stolen - pure coincidence or something in it?

I would appreciate thoughts.

Its easy to track a vehicle, not just those who want to steal you car but anyone can do it - check this link

http://www.fonefunshop.co.uk/tracker/stealth.htm

However, there is a lot of "just drive around" and see what they can find.

[JimmyTheHand]

mrmr96 said:

That link implies that the code can be grabbed out of the air. Which is at odds with my understanding, which was that access to the OBD socket was required. Has Reg got their facts wrong, or have we all been missing the point?

I think the article is also talking about (or muddling up with) other research showing weakness in the encryption/algorithms used by some remotes that use radio communication. Such weaknesses would allow you to replicate the key just by monitoring it. Far too many computer programmers/engineers fail to understand the difficulty in creating a secure system and encryption algorithms aren't something you can design unless you really know what you are doing (read unless you have something like PHD in mathematics forget it)

ArsE92 said:

They also mention reprogramming a blank key. More bks.

I was going to send a correction about blank key - but cba as it had been a long day.

[CMOS]

youngsyr said:

Balita Pinoy said:

A bit of clarification, most warranties state that work must be carried out by dealers (if under warranty). If a car owner got out a screwdriver and did it, the company could say the warranty is invalid; just a thought. If a dealer did the work I imagine there should be no problem.

IANAL, but my understanding is that as long as the work is done to a professional standard and uses parts at least as good as oem, it doesn't matter who does it , it is illegal for BMW to refuse a warranty claim. It's part of the EU competition laws - car manufacturers are not allowed to create monopolies by invalidating their warranty for non-main dealer work.

As I understand it, this is part of how this whole issue has arisen - BMW have to allow independent traders access to the equipment to copy new keys. They cannot reserve the right to create new keys for themselves as it would create a monopoly.

I've been down this road last month:

PLEASE phone BMW CS for clarification around warranty.

Here is the email that I received:

Dear Mr xxx,

Further to our recent telephone conversations, I am writing to you to confirm our position regarding the movement of the On Board Diagnostics Port on your 3 Series E92 BMW.

I would like to start by apologising that you remain dissatisfied with our position in relation to the recent theft of your vehicle.

I can confirm that on our first call dated 13/08/2012, you were transferred through to me by our front line team. At this time you requested a definitive response on two specific questions:

1. Is there is firmware fix for the OBD port for the E92
Response: I advised you that there is not currently a fix, however, BMW, the Police and other leading industry manufacturers are working together to resolve this issue.

2. Can I get a BMW Authorised Dealer to move the port to a hidden location?
Response: Advised that we are not authorising any Authorised Dealers to move the OBD ports on any of our vehicles. Moving the port will currently invalidate the warranty and any work carried out on the vehicle would therefore be chargeable within the first three years of the date of delivery and registration.

I trust that this clarifies our position, as discussed if I can be of any further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact me directly.

Yours sincerely

BMW UK
XXXXXX
Customer Service Manager XXXXXXXXX
Ellesfield Avenue
Bracknell RG12 8TA
Tel: [phone]
Fax: [phone]
Email: [e-mail]
URL: http:www.bmw.co.uk



--
This email was sent from an email account of BMW (UK) Limited which is a company registered in England and Wales with company number 1378137 and has its offices at Ellesfield Avenue, Bracknell, Berkshire, RG12 8TA. The contents of this e-mail are confidential and may be privileged and subject to internal monitoring. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message, you may not copy, forward, disclose, deliver or otherwise use it or any part of it in any form whatsoever. You should then kindly notify the sender by replying to this message and destroy it thereafter. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this message that do not relate to the official business of any BMW Group Company shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by them.

[BMWcare]

Hi,
There appears to be a lot of conflicting views about what is happening here.
I posted on another forum what a few of 'think' is happening and believe me I have met the guys that design and sell these 'rogue' tools.

It will not be solved by a software fix for any period of time (in our opinion anyway).

I'm posting a link as I just couldn't type it out again.
Apologies if that breaks a rule. If so then could someone copy/paste. It's next to impossible on iPhone!

Kind Regards,
E.
http://www.bmw-driver.net/forum/showpost.php?p=502...

[cptsideways]

That above link is exactly what I expected was the case, quite simple the CAS can be accessed via the OBD port, the data is then used to program the key. Also I have read the CAS unit can be completely bypassed via the OBD to start the car on some models.

Any software update won't fix the fault just add additional bridges to jump, which no doubt will be soon jumped.

A change of CAS units with new hardware is the only proper fix for this issue

[ik186]

Hi,

I fired off an email to watchdog after the program last week and received an email from one of their researchers asking if he could have my phone number so he can call me.

I hope this means watchdog will continue to apply pressure and raise this issue in the forthcoming shows until there is evidence of progress. Will keep you guys posted on any developments, if I have that call.

[Balita Pinoy]

Just been told that BBC Radio 4 program "You & Yours" doing a piece on the thefts issue today, Weds Sept 19 at 12 noon. Either on the radio or online: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01mqq6k

Edited by Balita Pinoy on Wednesday 19th September 09:17

[dasbimmerowner]

CMOS said:

2. Can I get a BMW Authorised Dealer to move the port to a hidden location?
Response: Advised that we are not authorising any Authorised Dealers to move the OBD ports on any of our vehicles. Moving the port will currently invalidate the warranty and any work carried out on the vehicle would therefore be chargeable within the first three years of the date of delivery and registration.

I would hope their position has changed somewhat, given that up until last week they didn't have a fix, and didn't admit to seeing a problem with the security at all.

Of course, we could all leave our OBD ports in a nice criminal friendly location, but I'm not sure the PR that gets is very BMW friendly either...