640D depreciation

[JNW1]

-Z- said:

In this case (M5) this is less than depreciation. Hence cheaper than cash, you can't dispute that, it is what it is.

Absolutely! However, 5to1 makes a very fair point in the sense these finance offers are only a good deal if they get you the car you want. Just over a couple of years ago I looked at a 640d coupe because the deals being offered by BMW were so attractive; however, when I saw a physical car in the showroom I thought "why do I want a car as big as this?" and then thought "actually I don't really want a diesel either" - I then walked away....

[converted lurker]

How is your scenario of a man who likes to pounce on a short term finance promotion of premium cars whilst only doing 400 miles a week any more valid than mine?

I don't know about you but I started with a mini at 17 and traded up for many years until I got to buying £47k BMWs so when I say save up I'm not exactly advocating making do with moped for seven years until you have £30 odd k ready to go straight in on a nearly new BMW. Clearly some people choose to skip a few steps and progress straight up to premium metal early and fir them a lifetime of credit interest payments is something they accept.

I think the 640d is a difficult case in this debate as the fantasy list price wasn't stuck to and the finance deals were unusually good I suspect because the UK was about the only territory in the EU that was actually shifting cars and those production lines just had to roll out product which had to go somewhere.

On more normal tackle I have yet to see a PCP total payments compared favourably with a realistic outright purchase and part exchange total cost. Are the tens of thousands of customers who are outright purchasing new/nearly new cars all mistakenly paying more than they need to in a massive exercise in consumer exploitation that the entire financial and motoring press have conspired to keep schtum about?

Daemon I am sorry if you construe my point about cash investment returns being taxable at certain rates when weighing up money matters as being boastful. Perhaps you are being over sensitive? God knows how you would react if I mentioned my 8 car garage, stables, paddocks, listed Georgian country house and collection of fine shotguns. If I wanted to boast I would. As it is I'm talking about the financing options of a moderately premium diesel commuting car when I have several options to talk about.

I think most PCP/credit deals are more expensive than what the man with a debit card can achieve. Is there any tame car salesman that has an insiders view on this I wonder?

[converted lurker]

Fox- said:

Forgive me for talking cars in this thread but I'm not sure £15k gets a decent F10 unless you want a pretty big miles 520d or similar which I'm guessing you don't. If you can bump up another £5k or so it gets you into the realm of decent 6 cylinder ones with sufficiently low mileage for BMW's warranty to not be quite as eyewatering as it would be on the higher milers.

Sorry, cash finance rabble finance cash

Autotrader shut big motoring world (I know I know) with a clutch of 530d at £14k with either pro nav or adaptive drive etc so not poverty spec. There are some nicely optioned SE private models around for £16k and high spec ones for 18 -19k. All with 80,000 miles or less so barely run in. I've no interest in warranties. They're just expensive ineffective insurance of a risk I can easily self insure for.

[daemon]

converted lurker said:

Are the tens of thousands of customers who are outright purchasing new/nearly new cars all mistakenly paying more than they need to in a massive exercise in consumer exploitation that the entire financial and motoring press have conspired to keep schtum about?

Likewise are the 90% of people who buy BMWs who use finance wrong?

converted lurker said:

Daemon I am sorry if you construe my point about cash investment returns being taxable at certain rates when weighing up money matters as being boastful. Perhaps you are being over sensitive? God knows how you would react if I mentioned my 8 car garage, stables, paddocks, listed Georgian country house and collection of fine shotguns. If I wanted to boast I would. As it is I'm talking about the financing options of a moderately premium diesel commuting car when I have several options to talk about.

No, just you seem to be using the fact that you are cash rich and in a particular job role as "evidence" that you must be right. You do seem to have got in a surprising amount of facts about you, your financial status and your job role compared to the rest of us - given this was just a thread about depreciation on a 640d.

And no i'm not "sensitive" to that. Just not feeling an urge to willy wave to get my point across.

converted lurker said:

I think most PCP/credit deals are more expensive than what the man with a debit card can achieve. Is there any tame car salesman that has an insiders view on this I wonder?

Speaking as ex motor trade (having worked in or around it for approx 25 years now), and having bought more than my fair share of new BMWs in my time, i feel i am fairly well placed to comment.

No doubt quite a few PCP deals work out more expensive, but there are some - probably more than you are prepared to acknowledge - that work out favourable over a cash purchase.

Even if they dont, who really cares? This is pistonheads after all - if its putting people into the car they really want, rather than what they could otherwise purchase with cash then why not?

If thats what they want to do thats their perrogative. It doesnt make them wrong.

Edited by daemon on Friday 2nd May 22:19

[converted lurker]

When Which looked at 12 different types/makes of car currently on sale they worked out the three year 30,000 mile total cost of buying cash, leasing or paying on finance. Here is the result:

http://www.which.co.uk/cars/choosing-a-car/buying-...


In every case cash was cheaper. In the case of the Jaguar XF 3.0D V6 Premium Luxury Auto (most relevant to here) it was many thousands of pounds cheaper pay your £34,750 in cash than to lease or finance.

Is BMW really different and if so why?

[daemon]

converted lurker said:

When Which looked at 12 different types/makes of car currently on sale they worked out the three year 30,000 mile total cost of buying cash, leasing or paying on finance. Here is the result:

http://www.which.co.uk/cars/choosing-a-car/buying-...


In every case cash was cheaper. In the case of the Jaguar XF 3.0D V6 Premium Luxury Auto (most relevant to here) it was many thousands of pounds cheaper pay your £34,750 in cash than to lease or finance.

Is BMW really different and if so why?

Because - and this took me 0.3 seconds on google to find - their lease prices are stupidly out.

Heres a Jaguar XF 3.0D v6 Premium Luxury Auto for almost £400 a month less than they're quoting

http://www.nationwidevehiclecontracts.co.uk/Jaguar...

Which totally wipes out the "advantage" to cash.

If theres any more fish you want me to shoot in a barrel, let me know.

[-Z-]

daemon said:

Because - and this took me 0.3 seconds on google to find - their lease prices are stupidly out.

Heres a Jaguar XF 3.0D v6 Premium Luxury Auto for almost £400 a month less than they're quoting

http://www.nationwidevehiclecontracts.co.uk/Jaguar...

Which totally wipes out the "advantage" to cash.

If theres any more fish you want me to shoot in a barrel, let me know.

Exactly!

Also, traditionally Jaguar tend to be uncompetitive on leasing.

The main two players in the luxury leasing market over the past year are Merc and BMW. Audi/Jag/Lexus don't come close for the most part.

Over on the Merc forum a chap is paying £280/month for a new SL350 list price £70k. Think the deposit was less than £2k.

I mean that is ridiculously cheap.

You do have to wait for a deal though, I missed out on the last M3's, didn't fancy one of the convertibles so waited, then missed out on a C63 then pounced when the M5 deal came up.

You have to be flexible with the car, spec and timing to her a deal IMO.

[doc261]

They quote a golf 2.0TDI as costing over £11k over 3 years here is a contract hire price costing £10k over 4 years

http://www.contracthireandleasing.com/personal/car...

I could have paid cash for my car (and have done in the past) but I chose contract hire because I got a cracking deal on PCH on a 640D. Now I hand it back having known in advance exactly how much it was going to cost me over 2 years and I get to choose another car. My wife has a 330D that is 5 years old that I bought for cash at a year old because we intend to keep this car a long time so depreciation is less of a factor.

You really don't need to convince people that one route to car ownership is better or cheaper than other. It depends on so many factors that it's up to an individual to decide what's best for them.

The title of the thread was 640D depreciation and one of the factors for me to get said car on PCH was that I didn't have to worry about depreciation, I got a cracking deal. I drove a car that I wouldn't normally purchase, I kept my cash for other uses and I have an easy route to another car without worrying about trade in etc.

[converted lurker]

Clearly they cocked up the jag lease figure. Using the link you provided the three year total cost would be £17,948.

Still more expensive than either cash or loan.

Shooting fish is not as easy as it looks..

[JNW1]

converted lurker said:

How is your scenario of a man who likes to pounce on a short term finance promotion of premium cars whilst only doing 400 miles a week any more valid than mine?

I've never said that your view wasn't valid, I (and others) have just been making the point that there are instances where it's possible to finance a car and have monthly repayments that are similar to - and in some cases less than - the depreciation you'd suffer if you'd bought outright. In those scenarios I can't see the point in outright purchase and personally I'd use the finance option and find a different home for my cash; however, that doesn't make me right and you wrong, each to their own and all that.

[Jon1967x]

Jon1967x said:

- Finance company can get the car cheaper than you can (or a subsidy that you can't get maybe through a bulk purchase etc, or manufacturer subsidising the finance - it all amounts to the same thing, its cash that someone is prepared to give but not to you directly)
- Finance company is prepared to take a punt on the GFV of the car being higher than it turns out to be.

As said before.. If a deal comes up it's one of these two.. And more often lower starting price. Deals will come up.. But so do new car cash purchases. I bought a new car in dec that was only a few k more than used stock they had as the dealer had unregistered stock he needed to shift before year end and model year changes. I think we need to be mindful that a few cars on a cracking deal are likely to be for specific reasons and not a blanket proof that it's always the case.

If you find a cracking deal then fantastic, either on finance or purchase.

[Edinburger]

converted lurker said:

I'm a BMW driver - it's all about the twisties for me.

This is a long shot but as a BMW driving pilot, is yours the M3 with the Top Gun reg which I often see at the short stay car park at Edinburgh Aurport?

[daemon]

converted lurker said:

Clearly they cocked up the jag lease figure. Using the link you provided the three year total cost would be £17,948.

Still more expensive than either cash or loan.

Shooting fish is not as easy as it looks..

No. Wrong Again.

35 * £425.94 = £14907.90

Deposit = £1299.42

Processing fee = £180

Total = £16,387.42

What Car?s predicted resale value is a full RETAIL resale value - you're never going to get that. You can actually buy a three year old one for LESS from a main dealer...

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2014...

Prices from dealers START at £19,995, i would say trade price is around £17,000-£18,000. So if you were to trade the three year old jag in you'd be DOWN over £2,000 compared to leasing. Even if you were to sell it privately to get a bit more, you'd struggle to "break even" relative to leasing - sounds like an awful lot of hassle to save no money?

Clearly the What Car? report is deeply FLAWED.

I thought you told us you had "examined leasing figures carefully"? Clearly you havent. If you got it wrong here, then maybe you got it wrong when you were looking at the BMW figures at the dealers?

Any more fish?

Edited by daemon on Saturday 3rd May 12:08

Edited by daemon on Saturday 3rd May 12:13

[daemon]

JNW1 said:

converted lurker said:

How is your scenario of a man who likes to pounce on a short term finance promotion of premium cars whilst only doing 400 miles a week any more valid than mine?

I've never said that your view wasn't valid, I (and others) have just been making the point that there are instances where it's possible to finance a car and have monthly repayments that are similar to - and in some cases less than - the depreciation you'd suffer if you'd bought outright. In those scenarios I can't see the point in outright purchase and personally I'd use the finance option and find a different home for my cash; however, that doesn't make me right and you wrong, each to their own and all that.

Thats what Converted Lurker isnt getting - his choices are right for him - they're his choices for his circumstances. BUT his view of the world doesnt make other people wrong.

[daemon]

Jon1967x said:

I think we need to be mindful that a few cars on a cracking deal are likely to be for specific reasons and not a blanket proof that it's always the case.

If you find a cracking deal then fantastic, either on finance or purchase.

Yes. Absolutely agree. I wouldnt advocate a blanket approach one way or the other.

[daemon]

Edinburger said:

converted lurker said:

I'm a BMW driver - it's all about the twisties for me.

This is a long shot but as a BMW driving pilot, is yours the M3 with the Top Gun reg which I often see at the short stay car park at Edinburgh Aurport?

Is the driver Powerfully Built with legs like Will Carling?

[converted lurker]

daemon said:

No. Wrong Again.

35 * £425.94 = £14907.90

Deposit = £1299.42

Processing fee = £180

Total = £16,387.42

What Car?s predicted resale value is a full RETAIL resale value - you're never going to get that. You can actually buy a three year old one for LESS from a main dealer...

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2014...

Prices from dealers START at £19,995, i would say trade price is around £17,000-£18,000. So if you were to trade the three year old jag in you'd be DOWN over £2,000 compared to leasing. Even if you were to sell it privately to get a bit more, you'd struggle to "break even" relative to leasing - sounds like an awful lot of hassle to save no money?

Clearly the What Car? report is deeply FLAWED.

I thought you told us you had "examined leasing figures carefully"? Clearly you havent. If you got it wrong here, then maybe you got it wrong when you were looking at the BMW figures at the dealers?

Any more fish?

Edited by daemon on Saturday 3rd May 12:08

Edited by daemon on Saturday 3rd May 12:13

Well, you forgot to adjust from 8,000 miles per annum to 10,000 miles and there is the slight issue that the Which piece was not filed last week but many months ago. Prices have depreciated since then. As an completely neutral consumer organisation I don't have much reason to doubt that, when looking at a wide range of popular cars, they found consistently that leasing and loans were more expensive than buying outright. Which stands to reason because I never found another good that was cheaper to buy on credit than with cash because credit always costs someone something.

I concur that there is no right/wrong answer and peoples wildly differing circumstances dictate different choices, not everybody actually has £30 - £40k in actual cash lying around for one. I never actually ever said that. What I said is that in the cars I had looked at the deals available seemed cheapest for a straight purchase despite the enthusiasm of the sales people to enter into a finance arrangement of one form or another and that having experienced this I was now free of a nagging doubt I had been having that all these other people using PCP's etc knew something that I didn't. They don't. They just can't afford to buy their cars outright.

I was just sharing that.

Its been an illuminating discussion - I find online that a good bit of heated debate serves to explore and clarify an issue in the most effective manner. Its pleasing and a credit to this forum that this is possible without recourse to abuse and with a sense of humour.

Now, should I or should I not get an F10 with Adaptive Drive and has anyone ever actually owned one (or any model) with Integrated Active Steering? I'm intrigued about how something with 4 wheel steer, variable damping and active roll control actually drives because it sounds intriguing from a geeks point of view...


Converted

[daemon]

converted lurker said:

there is the slight issue that the Which piece was not filed last week but many months ago. Prices have depreciated since then.

But a 3 year Jag is a 3 year old Jag? They dont suddenly become 3 years and many months old? Their report is flawed because - among other reasons - its quoting full main dealer retail money as the resale price. Not happening.

converted lurker said:

As an completely neutral consumer organisation I don't have much reason to doubt that, when looking at a wide range of popular cars, they found consistently that leasing and loans were more expensive than buying outright. Which stands to reason because I never found another good that was cheaper to buy on credit than with cash because credit always costs someone something.

Even though their "report" was quoting lease rates at TWICE what even a cursory glance at leasing sites found and they were quoting full dealer retail price as their resale vale?

You wouldnt agree that made their report somewhat flawed?

converted lurker said:

I concur that there is no right/wrong answer and peoples wildly differing circumstances dictate different choices, not everybody actually has £30 - £40k in actual cash lying around for one. I never actually ever said that. What I said is that in the cars I had looked at the deals available seemed cheapest for a straight purchase despite the enthusiasm of the sales people to enter into a finance arrangement of one form or another and that having experienced this I was now free of a nagging doubt I had been having that all these other people using PCP's etc knew something that I didn't. They don't. They just can't afford to buy their cars outright.

I was just sharing that.

But you werent "just sharing that". Everything you've written comes across as "i'm right, you're all wrong.", "I'm considerably richer than yew all, so i'm right", "even when i'm given evidence and examples to the contrary I'm still right".

And now "i've quoted a fundamentally flawed article to prove i'm right, which turns out isnt right, but i'm going to nail my colours to that mast because What Car? is a respected magazine so they must be right".

Edited by daemon on Saturday 3rd May 13:31

[daemon]

converted lurker said:

a nagging doubt I had been having that all these other people using PCP's etc knew something that I didn't. They don't. They just can't afford to buy their cars outright.

I was just sharing that.

There we go, once again "I'm considerably richer than yew"

[converted lurker]

Ok, I got it a while ago that you think that everything I write is me trying to boast on the internet to people I have never met and will never speak to.

That's a pity. I'm very sad about that. Now I'm over it.

You clearly have been a very active member of this forum for a very long time and feel a sense of ownership over it. However, I note you are not a moderator, so quite why you feel enfranchised to keep querying and questioning and criticising other posters motivations, attitudes or intentions is beyond me.

My friend, whatever wealth I may have is easily dwarfed by the man just around the corner who in turn is a pauper compared the man just across the street. You would have to be a very sad person to use an online discussion forum thread about diesel saloon cars to boast about your life. Frankly to even perceive that as happening suggests there might be a chip on ones shoulder.

Converted