M-Sport has devalued the M brand...

[Kawasicki]

daemon said:

Instead of M-Sport devaluing the M brand, i would contend that the M brand exists because of the continuing success of the M Sport brand, and to a lesser extent, the sales of BMWs in general.

The M brand is a halo product. I dont think its a profit centre in itself but it exists so they can sell M Sports and their like to regular people.

BMW is still seen as a "sporting" brand, but if it were based on what it sells, rather than peoples perceptions, they'd be seen as a supplier of family and exec diesel cars. So the perception is maintained by the M models, when in reality people buy over wheeled, hard suspension diesels instead.

Edited by daemon on Thursday 24th April 12:11

Even the 4 pot diesel family cars are great handling cars. BMW's reputation wasn't built only by the M models...

[daemon]

Kawasicki said:

daemon said:

Instead of M-Sport devaluing the M brand, i would contend that the M brand exists because of the continuing success of the M Sport brand, and to a lesser extent, the sales of BMWs in general.

The M brand is a halo product. I dont think its a profit centre in itself but it exists so they can sell M Sports and their like to regular people.

BMW is still seen as a "sporting" brand, but if it were based on what it sells, rather than peoples perceptions, they'd be seen as a supplier of family and exec diesel cars. So the perception is maintained by the M models, when in reality people buy over wheeled, hard suspension diesels instead.

Edited by daemon on Thursday 24th April 12:11

Even the 4 pot diesel family cars are great handling cars. BMW's reputation wasn't built only by the M models...

I never said it was - just that the "perception" still remains that its a sporting brand, when realistically they sell predominantly 2.0 litre four pot diesels.

[Kawasicki]

daemon said:

I never said it was - just that the "perception" still remains that its a sporting brand, when realistically they sell predominantly 2.0 litre four pot diesels.

And the 2.0 litre four pot diesels they sell are the most sporting ones available...

[cerb4.5lee]

Simond S said:

cerb4.5lee said:

Jon1967x said:

I though the biggest issues with the M cars was that they're so capable at legal speeds they're boring?

That was the case for me with my old E92 M3 and my 330i pretty much does the same job most of the time for me anyway but appreciate we all look for different things with cars...I was happy just listening to my TVR at idle and I didn't even need to drive it for it to put a smile on my face.

M cars are only exciting if you are driving like a clown or sliding them around and that was my biggest issue with them and for the rest of the time you may as well be in a 318d.

Exactly. A Cerb or Chimp was fun to drive at any speed. A modern BMW is just too capable. At 50 the car doesn't feel like it is moving. In contrast the same speed in a 111r and you feel like you are driving a car.

I believe that the reason that cars like the Caterham 7 are so successful is that they are fun to drive without needing to be travelling at warp speed.

I'd be as bold as to say that you would have as much enjoyment driving a 118i as you would a M3 if you kept under the speed limit. You could even use most of the gears at some point.

Its ironic you mention the Caterham as that is very high on the list as my next weekend car as the M3 proved to me a couple of things one that they are ordinary to drive most of the time and two even though it had over 400bhp it never felt like it had due to its weight and you always felt the weight transfer of the car under braking and in the corners which spoilt the fun some what.

The Cerbera showed me that I just appreciate a lighter car and the Caterham with the right model can give you that power to weight ratio but even the base models are still focused around a great driving experience so you don't necessarily need loads of power anyway.

[cerb4.5lee]

Simond S said:

cerb4.5lee said:

Jon1967x said:

I though the biggest issues with the M cars was that they're so capable at legal speeds they're boring?

That was the case for me with my old E92 M3 and my 330i pretty much does the same job most of the time for me anyway but appreciate we all look for different things with cars...I was happy just listening to my TVR at idle and I didn't even need to drive it for it to put a smile on my face.

M cars are only exciting if you are driving like a clown or sliding them around and that was my biggest issue with them and for the rest of the time you may as well be in a 318d.

Exactly. A Cerb or Chimp was fun to drive at any speed. A modern BMW is just too capable. At 50 the car doesn't feel like it is moving. In contrast the same speed in a 111r and you feel like you are driving a car.

I believe that the reason that cars like the Caterham 7 are so successful is that they are fun to drive without needing to be travelling at warp speed.

I'd be as bold as to say that you would have as much enjoyment driving a 118i as you would a M3 if you kept under the speed limit. You could even use most of the gears at some point.

Its ironic you mention the Caterham as that is very high on the list as my next weekend car as the M3 proved to me a couple of things one that they are ordinary to drive most of the time and two even though it had over 400bhp it never felt like it had due to its weight and you always felt the weight transfer of the car under braking and in the corners which spoilt the fun some what.

The Cerbera showed me that I just appreciate a lighter car and the Caterham with the right model can give you that power to weight ratio but even the base models are still focused around a great driving experience so you don't necessarily need loads of power anyway.

[E65Ross]

I think you missed the point of the M3 when you bought it Lee. It's for people who don't want the almost total lack of refinement in their daily drive but still want something with a decent turn of pace that is still good to drive for what it is.

It's not a racing car turned saloon. It's a saloon turned a bit sporty.

[cerb4.5lee]

That's a fair point Ross

[Jon1967x]

Its no surprise the 1 series M coupe was such a success is that it went back to old school values. It might have been a raid on the parts bin but it gave back the raw feeling the M3 had lost. There are 4 on autotrader, 3 of which are 40k+ for a car that's over 2 years old and about 10k more than the same age M3.

[Zod]

As a serial M car buyer and also as owner of two Msport X5s (consecutively), I agree that Msport devalues the M brand. Our X5 has M badges nine M badges, I think (one on each door sill, one on each wheel and one on the steering wheel). The average punter thinks having M badges everywhere means his 520d Msport is pretty close to being an M5. AMG is no better and just about every Audi you see is an S-Line ("the imagine!") model.

[Fox-]

roofer said:

Dunno, just remember going to buy one way back when and walked as it hadn't had the LSD box ticked.

It was standard and became optional when ASC replaced it as standard in 1996 IIRC.

[Rob747]

cerb4.5lee said:

I am in agreement as well my favourite is the E36 M3 there is just something about that car I loved so much when I drove one and I also prefer the E46 to the E92 the E92 is far from a bad car but it just doesn't have the same feel as the older models for me.

The E30 M3 is the only one I haven't driven but most wax lyrical about it so it would be nice to have a go in one.

You'd like the E30.

It is slow by modern standards. It rolls around a lot too.

But it has some nice feedback, and that makes it enjoyable to drive. I'm not sure that particular value gets past the marketing dept at BMW GmbH any more?

[Kawasicki]

Rob747 said:

You'd like the E30.

It is slow by modern standards. It rolls around a lot too.

But it has some nice feedback, and that makes it enjoyable to drive. I'm not sure that particular value gets past the marketing dept at BMW GmbH any more?

I've driven the E30, E46 and E90 M3s, they are all fun to drive, all quite playful at the limit, none of them are sports cars, but I think they are all entertaining....as long as you are not too bothered about breaking the law.

[Clivey]

Zod said:

As a serial M car buyer and also as owner of two Msport X5s (consecutively), I agree that Msport devalues the M brand. Our X5 has M badges nine M badges, I think (one on each door sill, one on each wheel and one on the steering wheel). The average punter thinks having M badges everywhere means his 520d Msport is pretty close to being an M5. AMG is no better and just about every Audi you see is an S-Line ("the imagine!") model.

+1. My E46 320i Sport has factory-fitted 'M' logos on the wheels (including the steering wheel), sills, and gearknob. I appreciate the better seats, gearchange, suspension etc. but the badging is a bit embarrassing really. - It's not an M3 and I've no intention of pretending that it is.

[Lozw86]

M sport is a trim level. Get over it.

[4rephill]

Lozw86 said:

M sport is a trim level. Get over it.

This is the problem though! - People cannot seem to differentiate between BMW's Msport cars and their M cars.

They think that the ///M badge is the exact same thing as the ///M3; ///M5; ///M6 badge.

Those with a better understanding of BMW know exactly what the Msport cars are, and what the M cars are and simply don't get so het up/up their own arse about it all!