M-Sport has devalued the M brand...
Discussion
As stated by many on here BMW haven't started sticking more M kits on cars they've always been there.As said above E36/E39 Days the body kits on the M Pack cars were nigh on identical to the M cars besides alloys..At least since the e46/e60 they had flared archs and different panels etc...
Only thing that's happened now is 1 series which is golfish money and the Fleet of x1/x2/x3/x4/x5/x6/x7 4x4s ( come on it's getting silly) And slightly more M Badges...OH and the feeling that 80% of bmws are now diesels 15/20 years that figure was what 5%?10%? So i guess that's a fair bit
But it's happened to every manufacturer.I remember when a fellow petrolhead told me news of a Porsche making a jeep I honestly didn't believe it lol,Now they make jeeps and diesels ?Porsche? (well vw does for them)
Times have indeed changed,I can remember it like yesterday.Being picked up from primary school by my dad in his E30 325I Sport in Lachs Silver he was my hero! Would the average 9 year old even notice being picked up in his dads new 330d Sport? Probably not.
Only thing that's happened now is 1 series which is golfish money and the Fleet of x1/x2/x3/x4/x5/x6/x7 4x4s ( come on it's getting silly) And slightly more M Badges...OH and the feeling that 80% of bmws are now diesels 15/20 years that figure was what 5%?10%? So i guess that's a fair bit
But it's happened to every manufacturer.I remember when a fellow petrolhead told me news of a Porsche making a jeep I honestly didn't believe it lol,Now they make jeeps and diesels ?Porsche? (well vw does for them)
Times have indeed changed,I can remember it like yesterday.Being picked up from primary school by my dad in his E30 325I Sport in Lachs Silver he was my hero! Would the average 9 year old even notice being picked up in his dads new 330d Sport? Probably not.
Jon1967x said:
And that explains the RS4, RS6, C63 and E63.
I find it highly amusing that BMW introduce so many permutations of cars at the lower end of their range (3 series saloon, touring, GT, 4 Gran coupe etc) and yet have stopped doing that on the M cars. I agree they don't sell, but that's because M cars don't sell.
Between 2007 and 2012 3 series coupes production fell from 90k to 30k globally. Yep.. people really do want BMW 3 series coupes like they used to.
HTH
But your original post is still wide of the mark, you offered up F-types etc..as the alternative to the M3/4 which they aren't if you want 4 seats and luggage space (my original point)I find it highly amusing that BMW introduce so many permutations of cars at the lower end of their range (3 series saloon, touring, GT, 4 Gran coupe etc) and yet have stopped doing that on the M cars. I agree they don't sell, but that's because M cars don't sell.
Between 2007 and 2012 3 series coupes production fell from 90k to 30k globally. Yep.. people really do want BMW 3 series coupes like they used to.
HTH
The market certainly isn't moving from M3's to Caymans and F-types as they are globally very low volume cars.
E63 estates don't sell well either nor the e63 estate compared to the coupe/saloon, only Audi is the reverse but again RS avants are low volume cars.
In general the world market has moved on from performance coupes/saloons etc.. but towards SUVs as China and the US loves them, hence cars like the X5/6M and no doubt a X4M will make an appearance.
Its not just BMW is it - they're all at it
Audi S Line, Merc AMG etc
they might be devaluing the sports arm, but they are increasing sales to the main arm.
How many people buy a non M3 and put M3 badges, wing mirrors, led rear lights etc? - it's just BMW cutting out the middle man
Blame petrol prices and insurance costs
Audi S Line, Merc AMG etc
they might be devaluing the sports arm, but they are increasing sales to the main arm.
How many people buy a non M3 and put M3 badges, wing mirrors, led rear lights etc? - it's just BMW cutting out the middle man
Blame petrol prices and insurance costs
Wills2 said:
But your original post is still wide of the mark, you offered up F-types etc..as the alternative to the M3/4 which they aren't if you want 4 seats and luggage space (my original point)
The market certainly isn't moving from M3's to Caymans and F-types as they are globally very low volume cars.
E63 estates don't sell well either nor the e63 estate compared to the coupe/saloon, only Audi is the reverse but again RS avants are low volume cars.
In general the world market has moved on from performance coupes/saloons etc.. but towards SUVs as China and the US loves them, hence cars like the X5/6M and no doubt a X4M will make an appearance.
I agree with that but I do think BMW have lost a large chunk of M sales in an already shrinking market to the AMG and RS lines...m3/m5's haven't got any worse its just the other 2 have got better/progressed moreThe market certainly isn't moving from M3's to Caymans and F-types as they are globally very low volume cars.
E63 estates don't sell well either nor the e63 estate compared to the coupe/saloon, only Audi is the reverse but again RS avants are low volume cars.
In general the world market has moved on from performance coupes/saloons etc.. but towards SUVs as China and the US loves them, hence cars like the X5/6M and no doubt a X4M will make an appearance.
Would anyone honestly consider an AMG or RS model over a M car in the E36/e39/Early E46 days? Not me.. BMW ruled the performance salon market,In my eyes things changed around SL55 then c63 and B7 RS4 they were the first ones I could possible consider over the equivalent M car and I believe many M car owners/lovers it was the same.
As far as performance salons I think your correct.I hope its not the end tho...Maybe it will be like the hot hatches of the late 80's only to come back 10-20 years later in the likes of the Type R's/mk5 gti's/Reanult sport .
Wills2 said:
Jon1967x said:
And that explains the RS4, RS6, C63 and E63.
I find it highly amusing that BMW introduce so many permutations of cars at the lower end of their range (3 series saloon, touring, GT, 4 Gran coupe etc) and yet have stopped doing that on the M cars. I agree they don't sell, but that's because M cars don't sell.
Between 2007 and 2012 3 series coupes production fell from 90k to 30k globally. Yep.. people really do want BMW 3 series coupes like they used to.
HTH
But your original post is still wide of the mark, you offered up F-types etc..as the alternative to the M3/4 which they aren't if you want 4 seats and luggage space (my original point)I find it highly amusing that BMW introduce so many permutations of cars at the lower end of their range (3 series saloon, touring, GT, 4 Gran coupe etc) and yet have stopped doing that on the M cars. I agree they don't sell, but that's because M cars don't sell.
Between 2007 and 2012 3 series coupes production fell from 90k to 30k globally. Yep.. people really do want BMW 3 series coupes like they used to.
HTH
The market certainly isn't moving from M3's to Caymans and F-types as they are globally very low volume cars.
E63 estates don't sell well either nor the e63 estate compared to the coupe/saloon, only Audi is the reverse but again RS avants are low volume cars.
In general the world market has moved on from performance coupes/saloons etc.. but towards SUVs as China and the US loves them, hence cars like the X5/6M and no doubt a X4M will make an appearance.
How do I know? I am one. How else do I know? I hang around with a lot of people like me. You can buy a good DB9 with 4 seats and a boot, a V12 engine and drop dead looks for 40k. Pick your kids up from school in that and they'd remember it,
The M3 is being squeezed from both sides, relatively normal cars are not that far away on performance, certainly usable performance. Take the M5 - magazines feel the torque in a 535d makes it a much more compelling performance car every day than an M5. Yes you can thrash an M5 much quicker than a 535d but how often do you do that. And if you wanted that extra bit.. well, could you justify half the fuel economy for the other 15k miles a year you drive? So if the performance matters that much to you that you want the 10/10ths car, plus the image and not having the bloke down the pub say "I've a BMW too" pointing as his 320d rep-mobile then people will be prepared to forgo some practicality. The few that want a bit of both will buy an M3/4. Or maybe a GTR. And now they can buy a C/E63 Merc as they're a, nowhere near as common as BMWs and b, they've rebuilt their reputation.
The M cars sat in a niche that has been massively eroded from all sides
+49 said:
Wills2 said:
But your original post is still wide of the mark, you offered up F-types etc..as the alternative to the M3/4 which they aren't if you want 4 seats and luggage space (my original point)
The market certainly isn't moving from M3's to Caymans and F-types as they are globally very low volume cars.
E63 estates don't sell well either nor the e63 estate compared to the coupe/saloon, only Audi is the reverse but again RS avants are low volume cars.
In general the world market has moved on from performance coupes/saloons etc.. but towards SUVs as China and the US loves them, hence cars like the X5/6M and no doubt a X4M will make an appearance.
I agree with that but I do think BMW have lost a large chunk of M sales in an already shrinking market to the AMG and RS lines...m3/m5's haven't got any worse its just the other 2 have got better/progressed moreThe market certainly isn't moving from M3's to Caymans and F-types as they are globally very low volume cars.
E63 estates don't sell well either nor the e63 estate compared to the coupe/saloon, only Audi is the reverse but again RS avants are low volume cars.
In general the world market has moved on from performance coupes/saloons etc.. but towards SUVs as China and the US loves them, hence cars like the X5/6M and no doubt a X4M will make an appearance.
Would anyone honestly consider an AMG or RS model over a M car in the E36/e39/Early E46 days? Not me.. BMW ruled the performance salon market,In my eyes things changed around SL55 then c63 and B7 RS4 they were the first ones I could possible consider over the equivalent M car and I believe many M car owners/lovers it was the same.
As far as performance salons I think your correct.I hope its not the end tho...Maybe it will be like the hot hatches of the late 80's only to come back 10-20 years later in the likes of the Type R's/mk5 gti's/Reanult sport .
Lost soul said:
Don't forget the M badge comes with M suspension and other options so its not pointless
I actually chose a 325 MSport over a 330i for that reason. I tested 3 cars but only one MSport with similar age and mileage. The 330i was quicker but came with smaller wheels, softer suspention and generally felt more wallowy. I would have loved an earlier M3 but the servicing and economy would have ruined me as I only get 23mpg as it is. toon10 said:
Lost soul said:
Don't forget the M badge comes with M suspension and other options so its not pointless
I actually chose a 325 MSport over a 330i for that reason. I tested 3 cars but only one MSport with similar age and mileage. The 330i was quicker but came with smaller wheels, softer suspention and generally felt more wallowy. I would have loved an earlier M3 but the servicing and economy would have ruined me as I only get 23mpg as it is. Jon1967x said:
No, you've missed my point. If you want a performance car, at one point in time the affordable serious performance car was an M3. It filled a niche between the main stream cars and the exotic performance car. Now many people who want a performance car will look at those other brands because they don't just want performance, they want image, feel good factor, the whole package.
How do I know? I am one. How else do I know? I hang around with a lot of people like me. You can buy a good DB9 with 4 seats and a boot, a V12 engine and drop dead looks for 40k. Pick your kids up from school in that and they'd remember it,
The M3 is being squeezed from both sides, relatively normal cars are not that far away on performance, certainly usable performance. Take the M5 - magazines feel the torque in a 535d makes it a much more compelling performance car every day than an M5. Yes you can thrash an M5 much quicker than a 535d but how often do you do that. And if you wanted that extra bit.. well, could you justify half the fuel economy for the other 15k miles a year you drive? So if the performance matters that much to you that you want the 10/10ths car, plus the image and not having the bloke down the pub say "I've a BMW too" pointing as his 320d rep-mobile then people will be prepared to forgo some practicality. The few that want a bit of both will buy an M3/4. Or maybe a GTR. And now they can buy a C/E63 Merc as they're a, nowhere near as common as BMWs and b, they've rebuilt their reputation.
The M cars sat in a niche that has been massively eroded from all sides
I agree with this completely. How do I know? I am one. How else do I know? I hang around with a lot of people like me. You can buy a good DB9 with 4 seats and a boot, a V12 engine and drop dead looks for 40k. Pick your kids up from school in that and they'd remember it,
The M3 is being squeezed from both sides, relatively normal cars are not that far away on performance, certainly usable performance. Take the M5 - magazines feel the torque in a 535d makes it a much more compelling performance car every day than an M5. Yes you can thrash an M5 much quicker than a 535d but how often do you do that. And if you wanted that extra bit.. well, could you justify half the fuel economy for the other 15k miles a year you drive? So if the performance matters that much to you that you want the 10/10ths car, plus the image and not having the bloke down the pub say "I've a BMW too" pointing as his 320d rep-mobile then people will be prepared to forgo some practicality. The few that want a bit of both will buy an M3/4. Or maybe a GTR. And now they can buy a C/E63 Merc as they're a, nowhere near as common as BMWs and b, they've rebuilt their reputation.
The M cars sat in a niche that has been massively eroded from all sides
Back in the 80's when I was at school having someone picked up in a BMW was special, if their old man showed up in an M3 or M5......well.....that was another league.
I look round my sons school now and every car is a BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Land Rover it is the norm. I can guarantee that only a handful of people would even realise that the M3 was anything different to their 318d.
It wasn't the M Cars that stood out back then, it was all the BMWs that stood out.
M Cars were always about looking understated, they never looked any different to the sport version of the regular model, the fact you were in a BMW was enough to be different from the hundreds of Fords and Vauxhalls.
Now if you want something different it isn't going to be a BMW no matter if it is an M car or not, but then I would hope people buy a BMW because of how it drives not because of what others think anyway.
Theres absolutely nothing special about the BMW brand these days, the 3 series out sold the Fiat 500 and was only just out sold by the VW polo, so a 3 series is no more special or exclusive than your bod standard small hatchback . Looking down my street just about every other car is either a BMW, Audi, or Merc.
I bet 95% of my neighbours could care less what engine/drive train is in their cars, as long as its go a BMW, Audi or Merc badge to match everyone else they are happy.....In any case why get bothered about what people may or may not think about the 'M' brand, as long as BMW keeps on making good M cars than its all good.
Just remember BMW is here to make money, and if people are willing to pay an extra £3k for some M badges than cost BMW 50p, and some painted bits of plastic which probably cost less than £100 to make, than let them...All it means in the end BMW will have more R&D money to spend making better M cars .
Incidentally am not lucky enough to have a M car, but despite the massive numbers of M sport BMWs on the road a real M car is actually very very easy to spot/hear.
I bet 95% of my neighbours could care less what engine/drive train is in their cars, as long as its go a BMW, Audi or Merc badge to match everyone else they are happy.....In any case why get bothered about what people may or may not think about the 'M' brand, as long as BMW keeps on making good M cars than its all good.
Just remember BMW is here to make money, and if people are willing to pay an extra £3k for some M badges than cost BMW 50p, and some painted bits of plastic which probably cost less than £100 to make, than let them...All it means in the end BMW will have more R&D money to spend making better M cars .
Incidentally am not lucky enough to have a M car, but despite the massive numbers of M sport BMWs on the road a real M car is actually very very easy to spot/hear.
Edited by gangzoom on Wednesday 23 April 16:37
Lost soul said:
gizlaroc said:
M Cars were always about looking understated, they never looked any different to the sport version of the regular model,
oh really There have been more M cars which look VERY close to the non M models than the other way. But of course, the "M are all about lightweight racing cars" deluded people forget this.
Lost soul said:
E65Ross said:
But of course, the "M are all about lightweight racing cars" deluded people forget this.
They used to be , all cars are bigger and heavier today than 20 years ago E30 M3 the heaviest 4 cylinder E30 (325i only heavier due to having a bigger 6 pot engine with a iron block!), E36, E46 and E90 M3s all heavier than equivalent 3ers.
E28, E34, E39, E60 and F10 M5 ALL heavier than any other 5 series in their respective range and even the original M5 weighed the same as a counterpart 7 series so no changes in the M5 line up from that perspective either.
Since when was an M car a lightweight special, except the M3csl perhaps....oh wait, that wasn't that long ago. They've never been lightweight specials in reality. Even the E30 M3 came with all the optional extras fitted to a higher end 3 series like air con and so on.
I'm sticking my neck out here and I'm going to say they've always been sportier versions of the 3/5 series fully laden with all the extras available at the time. The lightweight ones are merely the rarities, not the "norm" for the M cars of yesteryears. Take your rose-tinted specs off
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