M-Sport has devalued the M brand...
Discussion
roofer said:
A badge is just a distraction. Proper people know a proper car. Others just want to tell their mates about a badge.
Maybe you're judging others by your own standards ? It's pure reverse badge snobbery. The stereotype works both ways.I don't know what a "proper person" is but I'd have far more respect for a decent pedaler using their humble M Sport car on track or at the Ring as they think the purpose doesn't justify more than £10k worth of modern machinery than your average proper M car driver that couldn't drive a greasy stick out of a dog's arse. I am not particularly aiming this at you btw ;-}.
I naively thought PH was a place for enthusiasts who value function at any price point and couldn't care less about the branding/marketing, but clearly I am wrong...as always !
M branding is just willy waving. The M brand is a perfect way to maximise profit from people who just have to have the most expensive of a brand.
Most people would never use all of the capability of a M-Sport car, I know i'll never drive my 330d to the limit, so a M3 would just be to prove I could.
X6M is absurdly capable, but again I have yet to push the 40d anywhere near its limit so the additional cost would be wasted.
At the end of the day vanity is the main reason we buy any car. We may pretend to ourselves it si the handling, poise, grip, comfort or whatever other bull we feed our minds, but in fact we buy through vanity and to show other people how well we are doing.
Most people would never use all of the capability of a M-Sport car, I know i'll never drive my 330d to the limit, so a M3 would just be to prove I could.
X6M is absurdly capable, but again I have yet to push the 40d anywhere near its limit so the additional cost would be wasted.
At the end of the day vanity is the main reason we buy any car. We may pretend to ourselves it si the handling, poise, grip, comfort or whatever other bull we feed our minds, but in fact we buy through vanity and to show other people how well we are doing.
Simond S said:
At the end of the day vanity is the main reason we buy any car. We may pretend to ourselves it si the handling, poise, grip, comfort or whatever other bull we feed our minds, but in fact we buy through vanity and to show other people how well we are doing.
What utter, utter crap. If that's how you feel then fair enough, each to their own. Don't tar all of us with that same brush will you please.Have you ever thought some people buy cars simply because they like them for their actual characteristics at their respective price point relative to what the person wants from a car?
Simond S said:
M branding is just willy waving. The M brand is a perfect way to maximise profit from people who just have to have the most expensive of a brand.
Most people would never use all of the capability of a M-Sport car, I know i'll never drive my 330d to the limit, so a M3 would just be to prove I could.
X6M is absurdly capable, but again I have yet to push the 40d anywhere near its limit so the additional cost would be wasted.
At the end of the day vanity is the main reason we buy any car. We may pretend to ourselves it si the handling, poise, grip, comfort or whatever other bull we feed our minds, but in fact we buy through vanity and to show other people how well we are doing.
What a strange post. Most people would never use all of the capability of a M-Sport car, I know i'll never drive my 330d to the limit, so a M3 would just be to prove I could.
X6M is absurdly capable, but again I have yet to push the 40d anywhere near its limit so the additional cost would be wasted.
At the end of the day vanity is the main reason we buy any car. We may pretend to ourselves it si the handling, poise, grip, comfort or whatever other bull we feed our minds, but in fact we buy through vanity and to show other people how well we are doing.
That could only come from someone who has not owned an M car.
An M Car is not about taking it to the limit, it is about how much more fun it is without having to take it to the limit.
I used to go for a drive at midnight in my CSL and M3 around the North Norfolk coast and without even breaking the speed limits it was an absolute joy, couldn't get that same buzz from the 335i. In that you had to be going twice the speed limit to get any sensation of fun from it.
As I said, that post could only ever come from someone who has not had an M Car.
gizlaroc said:
As I said, that post could only ever come from someone who has not had an M Car.
I wouldn't even say an M car....you can appreciate the qualities of any car no matter what they are, and not all people buy them for ego.I didn't buy my car to boost my ego, I bought it because it's a bloody good car at what it's for and, more importantly, has a lot of characteristics I want from a car right now (refinement, space, comfort and a decent enough turn of speed).
I still want an M3 though
maybe I should get a 320d though because it's just as exciting 
gizlaroc said:
I used to go for a drive at midnight in my CSL and M3 around the North Norfolk coast and without even breaking the speed limits it was an absolute joy, couldn't get that same buzz from the 335i. In that you had to be going twice the speed limit to get any sensation of fun from it.
I find this really strange.. An M3 at midnight at legal speeds gives a buzz but to get the same in an 335i you'd need to doing double the speed? I though the biggest issues with the M cars was that they're so capable at legal speeds they're boring? I had a basic Renault 5 when I first passed my test and that had no power and slid around everywhere and was a hoot. A corner at 20mph was event.. None of the cars I own now would even notice the same bend. Care to expand unless you meant it the other way round?
Jon1967x said:
I find this really strange.. An M3 at midnight at legal speeds gives a buzz but to get the same in an 335i you'd need to doing double the speed? I though the biggest issues with the M cars was that they're so capable at legal speeds they're boring? I had a basic Renault 5 when I first passed my test and that had no power and slid around everywhere and was a hoot. A corner at 20mph was event.. None of the cars I own now would even notice the same bend.
Care to expand unless you meant it the other way round?
Can offer my tuppence worth, as am sure it's the difference between NA and turbo. My wife's relatives live in North Norfolk, and when visiting them at weekends I used to get up at 5am in the morning to go out and play around the beautiful country roads. No need for huge amounts of speed, simply just working through the gears around the tight bends. Care to expand unless you meant it the other way round?
Since we got the 335i, I've just enjoyed my lie in. The 335i is fun, but a bit of a blunt instrument and the majority of the fun factor comes from entering warp speed rather than working the engine and gears.
Jon1967x said:
I though the biggest issues with the M cars was that they're so capable at legal speeds they're boring?
That was the case for me with my old E92 M3 and my 330i pretty much does the same job most of the time for me anyway but appreciate we all look for different things with cars...I was happy just listening to my TVR at idle and I didn't even need to drive it for it to put a smile on my face.M cars are only exciting if you are driving like a clown or sliding them around and that was my biggest issue with them and for the rest of the time you may as well be in a 318d.
Simond S said:
M branding is just willy waving. The M brand is a perfect way to maximise profit from people who just have to have the most expensive of a brand.
Sorry, don't agree with this at all. I didn't buy my M-Sport 335i for anatomical reasons, but because I wanted the body kit (which looks much, much better than the SE), the suspension, and the seats. Similarly, when I finally chop the E91 in for an M3, it won't be for vanity reasons or because I'm deluding myself about my driving ability. I'll be buying it because I want to have fun.
Jon1967x said:
I find this really strange.. An M3 at midnight at legal speeds gives a buzz but to get the same in an 335i you'd need to doing double the speed? I though the biggest issues with the M cars was that they're so capable at legal speeds they're boring? I had a basic Renault 5 when I first passed my test and that had no power and slid around everywhere and was a hoot. A corner at 20mph was event.. None of the cars I own now would even notice the same bend.
Care to expand unless you meant it the other way round?
OK, I will try. Care to expand unless you meant it the other way round?
The 335i is, like most BMWs a very planted and sure footed car that is all about feeling very secure and isolating you from the outside world in complete comfort.
You can sit doing 120mph on the Autobahn for hours with your wife sat by you never saying a thing about speed, it gobbles the miles in complete comfort and all very effortlessly.
The M3 CSL on the other hand is a much noiser, firmer set up that really lets you know what is going on in the cabin, even as a passenger you can feel the surface of the road as it changes, you can here the engine suck in air to help propel you down the road, everything is set up to let your senses know exactly what is going on.
There is a long sweeping road as you leave mine, it is only a couple of miles long but there are some tight bends and adverse cambers on it which make it an absolute joy to drive and test cars on.
Going down that road in the 335i is nice, going down it in the M3 is glorious.
In the 335i you go into the first sweeping corner, let off the gas and and then hit the throttle again on the way out, the car glides round and it feels 'nice'.
However, take that same bit of road in the M3 and it is all very different, with the 335i it doesn't really matter if you are in the right gear, whether you are at 2000rpm or 4000rpm you have power on tap, but in the M3 you have to be in the rev range, so you come towards the corner iat 4000rpm and it starts to scream at you, you hit 4000, 5000, 6000 and it is barking, then 7000rpm, you change up and once again, 5000, 6000, 7000rpm...... and you are at the corner, you slam the brakes on and take the corner, as you come out you drop it back down a gear and you hit that magical 4000rpm once more, you slam the throttle, you hear the tyres chirp and the back end squiggle and and you start to work your way through that rev range once again, with that engine screaming, you are then into the next corner, and this time it is longer, and you are not sure what gear you need to be in next? You choose second and it is at 4000rpm when you come out and onto the gas, you have power and the car pulls like a train once more, you have got it right!
And you can once again breathe!
The 335i was the faster car, but it was also pretty dull in comparison, mine lasted around 9 months before I realised that speed was not what I was looking for from a car and the 335i was sold and another M3 was bought.
It is the ability to have fun without doing 120mph that makes many M cars so special.
It is how they deliver their speed that is so addictive, not the speed itself.
I should just add, I though the V8 M3 lost something that the E46 had, it became a bit too.........useful, if that makes sense.
The E36 you had to work, the E46 you had to work, I found the E92 had a bit too much power on tap a lot of the time.
I also thought the 330i was better than the 335i, again you had to work it more and it rewarded you for it.
The E36 you had to work, the E46 you had to work, I found the E92 had a bit too much power on tap a lot of the time.
I also thought the 330i was better than the 335i, again you had to work it more and it rewarded you for it.
nickfrog said:
Maybe you're judging others by your own standards ? It's pure reverse badge snobbery. The stereotype works both ways.
I don't know what a "proper person" is but I'd have far more respect for a decent pedaler using their humble M Sport car on track or at the Ring as they think the purpose doesn't justify more than £10k worth of modern machinery than your average proper M car driver that couldn't drive a greasy stick out of a dog's arse. I am not particularly aiming this at you btw ;-}.
I naively thought PH was a place for enthusiasts who value function at any price point and couldn't care less about the branding/marketing, but clearly I am wrong...as always !
No Sir, i don't make you wrong. If i bounce the (current) M5 of the limiter, it gives me goosebumps, although, to be honest, the previous E39 M5 did not have that ability. The badge really does mean nothing to me, the engine does. You have to bear in mind i grew up in a different era, it was twin 45's and revs. A car with stiffer suspension and a tri colour does not a package make. An M5 of such weight does not a supercar make. But when all 6 throttle bodies are singing, it makes me smile,and often chuckle.I don't know what a "proper person" is but I'd have far more respect for a decent pedaler using their humble M Sport car on track or at the Ring as they think the purpose doesn't justify more than £10k worth of modern machinery than your average proper M car driver that couldn't drive a greasy stick out of a dog's arse. I am not particularly aiming this at you btw ;-}.
I naively thought PH was a place for enthusiasts who value function at any price point and couldn't care less about the branding/marketing, but clearly I am wrong...as always !
Is that a definition of an M ? Idon't know, and really don't care. I had a 130, i enjoyed that more than the E39, it drove better. I respect any man who can ring the last tenth out of any car, probably a more gifted man than me. But i need to hear the mechanics of it too... thats an M, make sense ?
gizlaroc said:
I should just add, I though the V8 M3 lost something that the E46 had, it became a bit too.........useful, if that makes sense.
The E36 you had to work, the E46 you had to work, I found the E92 had a bit too much power on tap a lot of the time.
I also thought the 330i was better than the 335i, again you had to work it more and it rewarded you for it.
I do get that as what I think you're saying is older series M3 has more character than newer cars inc m3The E36 you had to work, the E46 you had to work, I found the E92 had a bit too much power on tap a lot of the time.
I also thought the 330i was better than the 335i, again you had to work it more and it rewarded you for it.
gizlaroc said:
it starts to scream at you, you hit 4000, 5000, 6000 and it is barking, then 7000rpm, you change up and once again, 5000, 6000, 7000rpm...... and you are at the corner, you slam the brakes on and take the corner, as you come out you drop it back down a gear and you hit that magical 4000rpm once more, you slam the throttle, you hear the tyres chirp and the back end squiggle and and you start to work your way through that rev range once again, with that engine screaming, you are then into the next corner, and this time it is longer, and you are not sure what gear you need to be in next? You choose second and it is at 4000rpm when you come out and onto the gas, you have power and the car pulls like a train once more, you have got it right!
And you can once again breathe!
Is this the fun driving without breaking the speed limit?And you can once again breathe!
I like M variants, because they are fast and composed....but I think all of them...even the 30 year old ones make a complete mockery of speed limits when I am enjoying them as they were developed to be driven.
Jon1967x said:
gizlaroc said:
I should just add, I though the V8 M3 lost something that the E46 had, it became a bit too.........useful, if that makes sense.
The E36 you had to work, the E46 you had to work, I found the E92 had a bit too much power on tap a lot of the time.
I also thought the 330i was better than the 335i, again you had to work it more and it rewarded you for it.
I do get that as what I think you're saying is older series M3 has more character than newer cars inc m3The E36 you had to work, the E46 you had to work, I found the E92 had a bit too much power on tap a lot of the time.
I also thought the 330i was better than the 335i, again you had to work it more and it rewarded you for it.
The E30 M3 is the only one I haven't driven but most wax lyrical about it so it would be nice to have a go in one.
Kawasicki said:
Is this the fun driving without breaking the speed limit?
I like M variants, because they are fast and composed....but I think all of them...even the 30 year old ones make a complete mockery of speed limits when I am enjoying them as they were developed to be driven.
Yeah, when you are on twisty back coast roads you often can't get passed 60mph or maybe 70mph, but it doesn't matter when you are in a car that is screaming through the revs and feels a bit raw while doing it. I like M variants, because they are fast and composed....but I think all of them...even the 30 year old ones make a complete mockery of speed limits when I am enjoying them as they were developed to be driven.
The 335i would do it just as quickly, but it doesn't have the sound or the feel, you are cocooned from what is going on so the drama is removed.
I went M3-335i-M3 and the 335i is so different it is untrue, if I hadn't gone from one to the other I wouldn't have relised just how much difference there was, on paper they are so alike.
cerb4.5lee said:
Jon1967x said:
I though the biggest issues with the M cars was that they're so capable at legal speeds they're boring?
That was the case for me with my old E92 M3 and my 330i pretty much does the same job most of the time for me anyway but appreciate we all look for different things with cars...I was happy just listening to my TVR at idle and I didn't even need to drive it for it to put a smile on my face.M cars are only exciting if you are driving like a clown or sliding them around and that was my biggest issue with them and for the rest of the time you may as well be in a 318d.
I believe that the reason that cars like the Caterham 7 are so successful is that they are fun to drive without needing to be travelling at warp speed.
I'd be as bold as to say that you would have as much enjoyment driving a 118i as you would a M3 if you kept under the speed limit. You could even use most of the gears at some point.
Instead of M-Sport devaluing the M brand, i would contend that the M brand exists because of the continuing success of the M Sport brand, and to a lesser extent, the sales of BMWs in general.
The M brand is a halo product. I dont think its a profit centre in itself but it exists so they can sell M Sports and their like to regular people.
BMW is still seen as a "sporting" brand, but if it were based on what it sells, rather than peoples perceptions, they'd be seen as a supplier of family and exec diesel cars. So the perception is maintained by the M models, when in reality people buy over wheeled, hard suspension diesels instead.
The M brand is a halo product. I dont think its a profit centre in itself but it exists so they can sell M Sports and their like to regular people.
BMW is still seen as a "sporting" brand, but if it were based on what it sells, rather than peoples perceptions, they'd be seen as a supplier of family and exec diesel cars. So the perception is maintained by the M models, when in reality people buy over wheeled, hard suspension diesels instead.
Edited by daemon on Thursday 24th April 12:11
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