LED headlights - how much better?

[5to1]

REALIST123 said:

The first thing you might do, to be less stupid as you asked, is not bother driving if you're mainly in the cess pit.

Secondly, just to try and educate, most winter tyres can be run for a good part of the year, and will outperform summer tyres most of the time between November and March, in many ways. I won't go into more detail, you being stupid and all, as you say. One tyre change a year shouldn't be too onerous, for the benefit gained.

A final thought; why, if you don't do much real driving, do you think Xenons or LEDs are even vaguely necessary?

Thanks for the "education", but I didn't state they can't be run for a good part of the year. I simply stated most of the time when I drive the temp is above 7C, at which point they WONT out perform my standard tyres in "many" ways. For me to be on the best tyre for the conditions I could very well need to change my tyre twice in one day. OR I could just use some common sense, look at the conditions and avoid driving when my tyres would be dangerous, drive slower and more carefully when they won't perform optimally and drive normally for the rest of the time (which happens to be the majority for me).

Whats where I live got to do with driving. And whats "real" driving, driving at temps below 7C, so you can lecture other people how they really should be swapping tyres?

One final thought, perhaps you should try to read and actually understand what someone has written before insulting them unnecessarily. If you're typical of the people from your neck of the woods, I'm happy to stay in the cess pit!

[Carmo99]

Don't you love PH forums.

I can add an opinion as I had Xenons on my last BMW and now LED's. The option here in Switzerland is about 750 GBP as its packaged with other elements so for me I think about this level if this gives value. The LED's came with the car as it was a pre-reg so I did not think to check the box as I looked at the overall price and spec.

BMW talks about clearer lighting, less eye fatigue, longer lifetime with LED's. I can agree to all of this but these advantages are not hugely significant. The last point from BMW was better visuals. In summary, for me I would spec LED's for 750GBP more in the same way I would have metallic paint and 20" wheels - because it looks better and if I am spending 50K (or even 40K) on something I want it to look how I want.

PS I also bought winter wheels and tyres as this is safety related hence is never a choice.

Edited by Carmo99 on Friday 12th September 11:22

[converted lurker]

Super trick lighting in Megalopolis seems even less value as it never ever gets actually dark. I drive through a large city regularly on nothing but dip at night.

Winter Tyres are essentially free. The Summer Tyres would otherwise be being worn down anyway.

Fancy lights are cool but not a safety feature. Not really.

I agree winter Tyres aren't necessary most days. But the days when they are the save your life or at least get you home. On those days - priceless.

[Cyder]

Interesting thread, I've spent the past 2 years working on a new model with both Halogen and LED head lamps so can hopefully answer or clarify a few of the points raised on here.

Lamps freezing
- It's true the LED modules don't give off any (much) heat and therefore lenses don't defrost like they do on halogen lamps. It's a downside for certain with LED's. It is of course possible to direct warmer air around the inside of the lens but that costs money.

Lamps misting
- All LED headlamps that I know of (and have worked on) have a coating applied to the inside of the lens to stop misting. The results of our testing is that the performance is as good as halogen lamps. (It should be for the amount of money the anti-mist coat costs)

Heat management
- As already said, LED's have heat management issues and are sensitive. As a result although the output temperature is low the LED needs big heatsinks (or air cooling) to call the chip

Light output/performance
- LED light is closer to natural light colour than Xenon, as a result the human eye perceives the light to be easier to see with and you can have a lower lumen output for the same visual result (to the human eye) in my experience of long night testing back to back my eyes felt more comfortable following long periods driving LED lamps over Xenon's.
Also LED lamps are normally a bit lighter than xenons because of the huge ballast pack on a xenon lamp so the CO2 boys like the reduction in mass.

Is there much difference in the performance to the average road user? No not really, xenon to LED is much more subtle change in my experience than halogen to Xenon.

ETA

Why do OEM's still offer halogens when they have fancy LED's or xenon available? Simply because it allows them to sell the base spec car cheaper and make more profit while giving the opportunity to upsell the fancy kit for a few extra grand. Substantial differentiation of low to high grades is a big thing in the OEM world.

Edited by Cyder on Friday 12th September 11:33

[hantsxlg]

5to1... I think as you live in London winter tyres are totally pointless for you, as London temperatures are significantly higher than outside London. I live in North Hampshire (c.10 miles outside M25) and run winter tyres nov-march as it will be below 7C from 16:00-11:00 for pretty much every day in that time period. It was -11C in Feb 2012 when I was taking my pregnant wife to Frimley hospital so I was very glad of the winters then.

However, back on the subject of LED lights... if you live and drive in london you won't need those either, or even Xenons, other than for how they make your car look.

Personally, living in the semi-sticks I wouldn't be without powerful 'adaptive' headlights, as in ones that point around the bends. I am interested to know if LED lights actualy have a better range, or spread (especially when 'dipped' for traffic going the other way). It sounds like the 'dynamic' xenon option give this, with the LED aspect having minimal extra benefit...

[5to1]

converted lurker said:

Super trick lighting in Megalopolis seems even less value as it never ever gets actually dark.

I agree and if you read my original post I stated functionally I receive marginal benefit since I drive in well lit areas. As per Carmo's post most of my reasoning for considering them in future (as I said mine was pre-reg, so I didn't spec them and in fact didn't pay anymore for my car with them against one without) are based on Aesthetics and where I think the market will go next for cars in the 6GC segment (I don't want my car to look prematurely dated when BMW stick them on the LCI for example).

[5to1]

hantsxlg said:

However, back on the subject of LED lights... if you live and drive in london you won't need those either, or even Xenons, other than for how they make your car look.

Personally, living in the semi-sticks I wouldn't be without powerful 'adaptive' headlights, as in ones that point around the bends. I am interested to know if LED lights actualy have a better range, or spread (especially when 'dipped' for traffic going the other way). It sounds like the 'dynamic' xenon option give this, with the LED aspect having minimal extra benefit...

Considering them purely on function and at the stand alone price of £1600 you'd have to do a hell of a lot night driving (in areas without road lighting) to make them worthwhile. Yes the light output is closer to daylight and so easier on the eyes. My observations are that the beam output is more even (against a 7 with the Xenons), not sure on the beam area sorry :/ But given the Xenons have all the trickery as well, its a lot of money to pay if the colour temp and slightly less even beam spread of the Xenons doesn't bother you.

On the other hand if you can get them as part of a pack including other kit you want (bringing the cost down) and/or also value the aesthetic enhancement to the car, then the uplift becomes more palatable.

Oh and i'm glad someone understands why I don't stick winter tyres on

[converted lurker]

I think you are over estimating the city heat effect of London. It is rarely more than 2 degrees warmer than surrounding countryside and is described thus:

" Winter, from December to February, remains cold in London. The average temperature in the winter stays at 5°C, with maximums averaging 7°C and minimums 2°C. However, the winter temperature can often drop to 0°C. Due to the ‘urban heat island’ phenomenon frosts and snow are rarer in the city than elsewhere. During the late autumn rainfall remains at its highest level and it continues in the first few months of winter. "


http://www.worldweatheronline.com/London-weather-a...


To be fair if you are in London then you have less need of reliable winter wheels as you tend to travel more slowly over shorter distances with ample public transport alternatives.

I do like nice lights. I have a £200 Surefire hand torch for example. £1600 though...

[hantsxlg]

converted lurker said:

I think you are over estimating the city heat effect of London. It is rarely more than 2 degrees warmer than surrounding countryside .....

From my personal experience I'd totally disagree with that if we take the 'surrounding countryside' to be Bucks, Berks and Hampshire. Here are AVERAGE temperatues from my weatherstaion records for North Hampshire:
Jan Feb March Nov Dec
2009 2.7 2.9 7.7 8.9 3.0
2010 1.3 3.5 6.6 6.1 1.2
2011 4.7 6.9 7.28 9.7 6.0
2012 5.6 4.0 8.5 6.5 5.0
2013 4.1 3.1 3.3 6.3 6.0
2014 5.8 6.5 7.9 ? ?

So out of 28 'winter' months 22 had average temperatures below the magic 7C (and EVERY dec-Feb month). I'd suggest the average (not daily high/low but average for the entire diurnal cycle) for Central london would be more than 2C above this...

[RenoHuskerDu]

I couldn't disagree with the gentleman converted_lurker more. That kind of argument leads to driving a Dacia.

[converted lurker]

I probably check the temperature at Heathrow compared to Stansted, Gatwick and Birmingham twenty times a week. If LHR is warmer its only ever a degree or two and its frequently bleedin cold there.

Last time i checked London is on the Thames not the Riviera.


I don't quite get how my expressed opinion results in buying a Dacia particularly as I own a £53,000 300bhp 5 series...

[Jon1967x]

converted lurker said:

I probably check the temperature at Heathrow compared to Stansted, Gatwick and Birmingham twenty times a week. If LHR is warmer its only ever a degree or two and its frequently bleedin cold there.

Last time i checked London is on the Thames not the Riviera.


I don't quite get how my expressed opinion results in buying a Dacia particularly as I own a £53,000 300bhp 5 series...

I presume you're checking air temperatures not ground temperatures. And airfields are always bloody cold.

It's the temperature of the Tarmac and tyre that matters (unless under 3' of snow) and they can differ significantly from the air temperature.

[5to1]

converted lurker said:

I probably check the temperature at Heathrow compared to Stansted, Gatwick and Birmingham twenty times a week. If LHR is warmer its only ever a degree or two and its frequently bleedin cold there.

Last time i checked London is on the Thames not the Riviera.


I don't quite get how my expressed opinion results in buying a Dacia particularly as I own a £53,000 300bhp 5 series...

Whereas some of us live here and experience the actual temp every day, several times a day

If you look at the average lows and average highs in the London area you'll see even in the coldest months they are 5C and 9 or 10c respectively. That's pretty warm for winter compared to many other places only slightly north of us. Other then the odd snow week, you're not going to experience many days where you have to worry about your rubber being well outside its optimal operating window. In fact if you had winters on, you'd probably be running those out of their optimal window just as often, so what's the point?

The bigger problem we have is truly inclement weather is so rare, people (including those keeping Airports running) just can't deal with it. I avoid driving in such weather taking WFH days or public transport, as there are too many idiots (winter tyres or not) who drive like morons in treacherous road conditions :/

Edited by 5to1 on Saturday 13th September 21:30

[converted lurker]

Londons not especially warm in January on average. Far warmer in Bournemouth or Bristol...



I will take air temp as a proxy for ground temp.

Averages don't mean much when its 4am and you are trying to do a hill start outof your driveway.

[5to1]

converted lurker said:

Londons not especially warm in January on average. Far warmer in Bournemouth or Bristol...



I will take air temp as a proxy for ground temp.

Averages don't mean much when its 4am and you are trying to do a hill start outof your driveway.

Both of which are well south of us. Go further south and you'll find it gets warmer still, what's your point? Nobody has said its the warmest place on the planet or Uk in January :/

And if all you do is hill starts at 4am out of your driveway in January go ahead and get Winter rubber. Once again I don't understand your point with that example. Nobody claimed there won't be instances where winter rubber would be handy. But the very same day when you pop out for lunch your winter rubber would probably be outside its optimal operating window. So what do we do then, grab our jack and wrench to switch to the optimal rubber for those conditions? After all we wouldn't want to end up ruining our Star Wars lights when we hit a lamp post because we're on the wrong tyre :/

What the average low (taking into consideration the average high) indicates is that there will be large periods of the month which will be pretty warm. Unfortunately we don't have readily available stats on distribution, not even mode. But with an average low of 5C and Average high if 10C it clearly indicates the distribution will include large periods of time above 5C (as we don't get extremely hot temps in winter).

You can take your air temps as a proxy if you wish, I'll stick to my experience of living here all my life and experiencing ground temps daily.

[northandy]

I have recently ordered an LCI 3.0d x3, I've gone with LED as even xenons were going to cost £1,100ish (visibility pack) so the LED was an extra £500.

Do I really need them?, no xenons would have been fine, but I don't need HUD either and I've gone for that as well. Maybe I'll decide I don't need them next time round but you only live once.

[anonymous-user]

5to1 said:

REALIST123 said:

The first thing you might do, to be less stupid as you asked, is not bother driving if you're mainly in the cess pit.

Secondly, just to try and educate, most winter tyres can be run for a good part of the year, and will outperform summer tyres most of the time between November and March, in many ways. I won't go into more detail, you being stupid and all, as you say. One tyre change a year shouldn't be too onerous, for the benefit gained.

A final thought; why, if you don't do much real driving, do you think Xenons or LEDs are even vaguely necessary?

Thanks for the "education", but I didn't state they can't be run for a good part of the year. I simply stated most of the time when I drive the temp is above 7C, at which point they WONT out perform my standard tyres in "many" ways. For me to be on the best tyre for the conditions I could very well need to change my tyre twice in one day. OR I could just use some common sense, look at the conditions and avoid driving when my tyres would be dangerous, drive slower and more carefully when they won't perform optimally and drive normally for the rest of the time (which happens to be the majority for me).

Whats where I live got to do with driving. And whats "real" driving, driving at temps below 7C, so you can lecture other people how they really should be swapping tyres?

One final thought, perhaps you should try to read and actually understand what someone has written before insulting them unnecessarily. If you're typical of the people from your neck of the woods, I'm happy to stay in the cess pit!

There's non so blind etc.

The fact remains, for the vast majority, winter tyres will outperform summer tyres for a significant part of our year, even in our cities and to talk about 7 degrees is to miss the point entirely.

You also missed the point about relative latitude. It doesn't matter in many cases how far south one is, much of Europe is more southerly than any of the UK but still legislates for the use of winter tyres, because of their obvious benefits. Even in the cities..........

[5to1]

REALIST123 said:

There's non so blind etc.

The fact remains, for the vast majority, winter tyres will outperform summer tyres for a significant part of our year, even in our cities and to talk about 7 degrees is to miss the point entirely.

You also missed the point about relative latitude. It doesn't matter in many cases how far south one is, much of Europe is more southerly than any of the UK but still legislates for the use of winter tyres, because of their obvious benefits. Even in the cities..........

Yes I agree, there truly are none so blind and you are as blind as they come.

Making up facts about the "vast majority" in the very same sentence that you dismiss the only verifiable fact as missing the point :/

While you try to dismiss any talk about 7C as missing the point, it is in fact one of the most important points to consider. Some idiot running around on Winter Tyres without knowing their optimal temp envelope isn't any better then someone doing the same on summers at sub 7C temps.

I've presented information on the average high's/lows we encounter. I've also given my first hand experience. We will rarely have a day that stays below 7C for the entire day, so even on a day where winters would be of benefit, they won't be for the entire day. I can choose to drive carefully when the temp starts to drop below 7C, or I can choose to change to winters and drive carefully when the temp goes above 7C. What I can't do, is be on the optimal rubber by changing tyre once every 6 months!

Also I simply stated in response to someone saying two English locations south of London were warmer, that it is not surprising and going further south there would be places that are warmer still. Is that not correct? Why does this imply I have missed the point about relative latitude? I didn't claim all places South of my location were warmer, or that none of them needed or stipulated winter tyres. What much of Europe does is up to them, some places stipulate carrying a breathalyser, should we all follow that example aswell?I visit my Wife's family in Europe and yes they stipulate winter tyres, but they also have much colder winters then I experience at home. That doesn't prove or disprove your unfounded claim that we'd all benefit from switching to winter tyres. There is only one pertinent concern which will determine that, and it is that 7C fact that you dismissed as missing the point :/

[Jon1967x]

5to1 - with respect, winter tyre performance in terms of grip doesn't deteriorate above 7 deg by any significant amount, the wear however does. A summer tyre on a frozen road is a million times more of a problem than a winter tyre on a summers day. Its just we rarely get frozen roads in towns - as much as anything because steady traffic over a road warms it up.

I tried winter tyres one year and found very little benefit so haven't bothered since. Famous last words probably.

And whoever was talking about lattide, the UK is a West coat marine climate which means we have a warming effect from the sea. We also have the gulf stream that brings further benefits.

Inland on continental Europe you lose this this effect, and altitude can also lower the temperature which is why the Alps have snow even though much further south. Janet and John geography lesson over.

Edited by Jon1967x on Sunday 14th September 18:50

[5to1]

Jon1967x said:

5to1 - with respect, winter tyre performance in terms of grip doesn't deteriorate above 7 deg by any significant amount, the wear however does. A summer tyre on a frozen road is a million times more of a problem than a winter tyre on a summers day. Its just we rarely get frozen roads in towns - as much as anything because steady traffic over a road warms it up.

Edited by Jon1967x on Sunday 14th September 18:50

You're right it was probably misleading the way I wrote it. Its certainly not as bad being on a winter over 7 as it is hooning around on a summer on icy roads. But my understanding is the warmer it gets the more heat is generated in Winter tyres resulting in reduced performance as well as higher wear. Is that not right with the latest gen winter compounds?