E46 M3? Should I buy?
Discussion
StuntmanMike said:
Hamster69 said:
I wasn't just being pessimistic. The E46, just like the W203, W211, 986, 996, was built around the turn of the century in the middle of the largest cost cutting programme Germany has seen since the war. All of these cars are known in the trade to be the black sheep in their respective families. Nothing against looks or styling. They were made cheap with cheap materials.
For example, we scrapped my sisters e46 back in 2009 with 79,000 miles on it. The engine was tapping, the gearbox was droning, it was using oil at an incredible rate. Both rear springs were broken. The O/S/R brake seized on while she was driving so spectacularly that the driveshaft gaiter melted. The steering rack was leaking from both ends and the subframe was rotten.
On the other hand my E36 has now done 139,000 miles, has no real issues and drives lovely.
Your sister had a cack one, I've owned mine over 5 years and it's been 100% reliable, better than the E36 328 it replaced.For example, we scrapped my sisters e46 back in 2009 with 79,000 miles on it. The engine was tapping, the gearbox was droning, it was using oil at an incredible rate. Both rear springs were broken. The O/S/R brake seized on while she was driving so spectacularly that the driveshaft gaiter melted. The steering rack was leaking from both ends and the subframe was rotten.
On the other hand my E36 has now done 139,000 miles, has no real issues and drives lovely.
dgm said:
Agreed. Having owned both the E36 and E46 there's no substance to that. The E46 was a big jump forward from the previous generation and the quality was most definitely not inferior.
So on your experience of two cars there is no substance to what I said. Well I have been a mechanic for 15 years working almost totally on German cars. So yeah there is some substance to my argument. My opinion being that also held by many of my mechanic friends. Had 2 E46's. a 330i Sport and E46M3 SMG. Both second hand. Cooling system needed work on 330i. Nothing else. did 50,000 miles in it. Sold at 96,000 miles.
M3 is 2004 bought 2007 with 20,000 miles. Now on 88,000 miles. Its been pretty good: I had warranty from purchase which I think has cost quite a bit more than the repairs below but was worth it for EU recovery and peace of mind.
Whats been done on the fabulous bit of machinery?
diff seal
power steering hose leak
alternator
clutch and DMF - due to DMF failure at 50k, clutch had loads left but they change together
one set of brakes all round at 55k (needs fronts again soon) - wear item but not cheap!
alloy refrurb by Lepsons (on 3rd year and still good)
CPV
rear axel carrier
RTABS
coil springs rear
lower rear control arms and ball joints
exhaust brakets
Overall that's not really too bad in 8 years and 88,000 miles - all high speed (EU holidays and weekend use). Been tracked only once but doing more. No rust, but I look after it very well.
I anticipate RTABS again and front wishbones and maybe shockers all round in next couple of years. I think all of this is routine and keeping the car right is defo much cheaper than buying a newer model of M3
No SMG problems, nothing wrong with engine / vanos etc fine.
Scheduled servicing at BMW plus interim oil service (DIY)
It gets used and works very well. I love it. I don't think the E92 or M4 will be any different to run really.....but depreciation will mean more expensive.
My E46 M3 is a keeper and I could buy Cayman/E92M3/RS4 if I wanted to....
M3 is 2004 bought 2007 with 20,000 miles. Now on 88,000 miles. Its been pretty good: I had warranty from purchase which I think has cost quite a bit more than the repairs below but was worth it for EU recovery and peace of mind.
Whats been done on the fabulous bit of machinery?
diff seal
power steering hose leak
alternator
clutch and DMF - due to DMF failure at 50k, clutch had loads left but they change together
one set of brakes all round at 55k (needs fronts again soon) - wear item but not cheap!
alloy refrurb by Lepsons (on 3rd year and still good)
CPV
rear axel carrier
RTABS
coil springs rear
lower rear control arms and ball joints
exhaust brakets
Overall that's not really too bad in 8 years and 88,000 miles - all high speed (EU holidays and weekend use). Been tracked only once but doing more. No rust, but I look after it very well.
I anticipate RTABS again and front wishbones and maybe shockers all round in next couple of years. I think all of this is routine and keeping the car right is defo much cheaper than buying a newer model of M3
No SMG problems, nothing wrong with engine / vanos etc fine.
Scheduled servicing at BMW plus interim oil service (DIY)
It gets used and works very well. I love it. I don't think the E92 or M4 will be any different to run really.....but depreciation will mean more expensive.
My E46 M3 is a keeper and I could buy Cayman/E92M3/RS4 if I wanted to....
selym said:
mark.c said:
Why is DIY servicing an e46 M3 today.... nuts?
What do they say about a fool and his money?For a punter looking to buy a car in all fairness the "DIY" servicing quality could range from total novice who isn't & hasn't done jobs properly previously and stripped threads etc to world class. That's the key you simply don't know - he might be someone you know so that would help but generally its total strangers as such no doubt they'd all tell you they are world class
Welshbeef said:
You say that yet those single owner cars with full main dealer servicing throughout its life is worth a heap load more than DIY servicing.
For a punter looking to buy a car in all fairness the "DIY" servicing quality could range from total novice who isn't & hasn't done jobs properly previously and stripped threads etc to world class. That's the key you simply don't know - he might be someone you know so that would help but generally its total strangers as such no doubt they'd all tell you they are world class
Once a car gets to a certain age, and all that warranty bollokcs is dealt with, I'd rather a knowledgeable enthusiast did the work than a few ticks in a box. For a punter looking to buy a car in all fairness the "DIY" servicing quality could range from total novice who isn't & hasn't done jobs properly previously and stripped threads etc to world class. That's the key you simply don't know - he might be someone you know so that would help but generally its total strangers as such no doubt they'd all tell you they are world class
This kind of car can be traced through an owners club, and so can its history. If you want to keep paying for a tick in a box and no knowledge of who has been doing it and to which level of experience they are, fire away.
Welshbeef said:
You say that yet those single owner cars with full main dealer servicing throughout its life is worth a heap load more than DIY servicing.
For a punter looking to buy a car in all fairness the "DIY" servicing quality could range from total novice who isn't & hasn't done jobs properly previously and stripped threads etc to world class. That's the key you simply don't know - he might be someone you know so that would help but generally its total strangers as such no doubt they'd all tell you they are world class
To be fair, in my experience the exact can be said of an awful lot of garages and dealers. To think that just because all the stamps are present and correct in a service book determines that it's been serviced by a commsurmate professional is foolhardy. For a punter looking to buy a car in all fairness the "DIY" servicing quality could range from total novice who isn't & hasn't done jobs properly previously and stripped threads etc to world class. That's the key you simply don't know - he might be someone you know so that would help but generally its total strangers as such no doubt they'd all tell you they are world class
selym said:
Once a car gets to a certain age, and all that warranty bollokcs is dealt with, I'd rather a knowledgeable enthusiast did the work than a few ticks in a box.
This kind of car can be traced through an owners club, and so can its history. If you want to keep paying for a tick in a box and no knowledge of who has been doing it and to which level of experience they are, fire away.
But as you well know for concours it has to be OEM serviced if it isn't then its inferior - even if the work is done correctly. This kind of car can be traced through an owners club, and so can its history. If you want to keep paying for a tick in a box and no knowledge of who has been doing it and to which level of experience they are, fire away.
How on earth can you trace the what 20-25k E46 M3's through owners clubs? What about all the cars which have never been by anyone involved in such circles or any desire to be so?
Welshbeef said:
But as you well know for concours it has to be OEM serviced if it isn't then its inferior - even if the work is done correctly.
How on earth can you trace the what 20-25k E46 M3's through owners clubs? What about all the cars which have never been by anyone involved in such circles or any desire to be so?
No-one mentioned concours at any time, and if you expect a 5-8k car with average miles to hold a massive premium due to a few ticks and stamps then you are the kind of money tree we have all been looking for.How on earth can you trace the what 20-25k E46 M3's through owners clubs? What about all the cars which have never been by anyone involved in such circles or any desire to be so?
As for the amount of E46 M3s that have been documented in owners clubs, you'd be surprised how many have passed through a club-based enthusiast at some time, or even here.
I suppose that the bottom line is that if you want to keep up dealer servicing then that is up to you but on a car that has been used and isn't already worth a lot of money, it isn't worth it.
selym said:
Welshbeef said:
But as you well know for concours it has to be OEM serviced if it isn't then its inferior - even if the work is done correctly.
How on earth can you trace the what 20-25k E46 M3's through owners clubs? What about all the cars which have never been by anyone involved in such circles or any desire to be so?
No-one mentioned concours at any time, and if you expect a 5-8k car with average miles to hold a massive premium due to a few ticks and stamps then you are the kind of money tree we have all been looking for.How on earth can you trace the what 20-25k E46 M3's through owners clubs? What about all the cars which have never been by anyone involved in such circles or any desire to be so?
As for the amount of E46 M3s that have been documented in owners clubs, you'd be surprised how many have passed through a club-based enthusiast at some time, or even here.
I suppose that the bottom line is that if you want to keep up dealer servicing then that is up to you but on a car that has been used and isn't already worth a lot of money, it isn't worth it.
This whole servicing thing does irk me a bit, I've been an Aircraft engineer for 23 years and I can count on one hand the amount of times I've sent a car into a garage and the job has been done with the same care and attention as I would have given it. I'm not saying I'm some kind of super engineer and all garages are rubbish, I just do what is required and do it right which I don't often see on garage serviced cars who have money to make, time pressure etc. Don't discount all DIY'ers.
mark.c said:
Do people really concours prepare E46 M3's ?! Blimey I really need to get out more, or not perhaps. Besides all that though, as I said above the same applies , I've worked on some concours cars for pals of mine that partake in such activities and in the main suffer from more issues than a car that is regularly driven and serviced , sticking callipers, duff thermostats, oil leaks, failing actuators etc. some of the best cars I know are serviced by their owners, driven as intended but sensibly.
This whole servicing thing does irk me a bit, I've been an Aircraft engineer for 23 years and I can count on one hand the amount of times I've sent a car into a garage and the job has been done with the same care and attention as I would have given it. I'm not saying I'm some kind of super engineer and all garages are rubbish, I just do what is required and do it right which I don't often see on garage serviced cars who have money to make, time pressure etc. Don't discount all DIY'ers.
Which is fair enough but you have DIYers from expert to shouldn't be allowed near a tool box. As a buyer potentially the one who shouldn't be allowed near a tool box might be able to sell sand to Arabs v the expert is overlooked. This whole servicing thing does irk me a bit, I've been an Aircraft engineer for 23 years and I can count on one hand the amount of times I've sent a car into a garage and the job has been done with the same care and attention as I would have given it. I'm not saying I'm some kind of super engineer and all garages are rubbish, I just do what is required and do it right which I don't often see on garage serviced cars who have money to make, time pressure etc. Don't discount all DIY'ers.
One thing I've found is BMW servicing does drop in part and labour rates for older cars and they will match/ beat Indy (have done with my personal experiance).
As for stamps in the service book - look I'm into cars but even if I wasn't if be demanding the invoice backup for all the jobs carried out. It could be a thick folder showing lots of issues (maybe common) but now resolved or actually nothing apart from routine servicing which again is find.
This is a car if happily own - long term as a second car "special" if you like but I'd not be buying the cheapest or slammed or tinted windows or 20 loving owners. I'd be buying as best an example as I could find/justify as I'd want it to be special but also more desirable and more likely to hold/go up in value than others.
mark.c said:
Do people really concours prepare E46 M3's ?! Blimey I really need to get out more, or not perhaps. Besides all that though, as I said above the same applies , I've worked on some concours cars for pals of mine that partake in such activities and in the main suffer from more issues than a car that is regularly driven and serviced , sticking callipers, duff thermostats, oil leaks, failing actuators etc. some of the best cars I know are serviced by their owners, driven as intended but sensibly.
This whole servicing thing does irk me a bit, I've been an Aircraft engineer for 23 years and I can count on one hand the amount of times I've sent a car into a garage and the job has been done with the same care and attention as I would have given it. I'm not saying I'm some kind of super engineer and all garages are rubbish, I just do what is required and do it right which I don't often see on garage serviced cars who have money to make, time pressure etc. Don't discount all DIY'ers.
I had a timing chain changed by an enthusiast. He has done so many now that he is the go to guy, and his work would be accepted as 'as good as it gets'. He is well known in the owners club and I'd rather have him do it than a Vauxhall dealer.This whole servicing thing does irk me a bit, I've been an Aircraft engineer for 23 years and I can count on one hand the amount of times I've sent a car into a garage and the job has been done with the same care and attention as I would have given it. I'm not saying I'm some kind of super engineer and all garages are rubbish, I just do what is required and do it right which I don't often see on garage serviced cars who have money to make, time pressure etc. Don't discount all DIY'ers.
selym said:
I had a timing chain changed by an enthusiast. He has done so many now that he is the go to guy, and his work would be accepted as 'as good as it gets'. He is well known in the owners club and I'd rather have him do it than a Vauxhall dealer.
The chain lasts the life of the engine... There is preventative work and then wasting money. selym said:
Welshbeef said:
The chain lasts the life of the engine... There is preventative work and then wasting money.
I should have asked you, a fantasist, before parting with my hard earned. Damn.
Welshbeef said:
So you changed the chain why? Do E46 M3s have timing chain failure issues... ? If not which I'm pretty sure is the case them hard luck you've spent some hard earned on a totally pointless replacement - good work
Well, I said it was a Vauxhall dealer so there was clue number one........You are backing a loser here....
selym said:
Welshbeef said:
So you changed the chain why? Do E46 M3s have timing chain failure issues... ? If not which I'm pretty sure is the case them hard luck you've spent some hard earned on a totally pointless replacement - good work
Well, I said it was a Vauxhall dealer so there was clue number one........You are backing a loser here....
k are you discussing any vehicle outside the E46 M3 on such a thread. Welshbeef said:
selym said:
Welshbeef said:
So you changed the chain why? Do E46 M3s have timing chain failure issues... ? If not which I'm pretty sure is the case them hard luck you've spent some hard earned on a totally pointless replacement - good work
Well, I said it was a Vauxhall dealer so there was clue number one........You are backing a loser here....
k are you discussing any vehicle outside the E46 M3 on such a thread. Listen son, I shouldn't have to explain anything to you, but as you are a bit slow on the uptake, here we go.
We were discussing enthusiast vs dealer servicing and work, generically and not confined to the M3. You made yourself look a blithering idiot because, instead of reading, you just supposed.
Did the 944 have a chain or a belt?
We were discussing enthusiast vs dealer servicing and work, generically and not confined to the M3. You made yourself look a blithering idiot because, instead of reading, you just supposed.
Did the 944 have a chain or a belt?
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