Going fast enough to loose GPS signal?

Going fast enough to loose GPS signal?

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Discussion

Thermobaric

Original Poster:

725 posts

120 months

Thursday 20th August 2015
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Had a weird thing recently when in Germany. Making use of the autobahns in a 2007 BMW E93 with iDrive with Pro nav. Going quite fast obviously and the signal would drop out and put the location somewhere not on the road. I wondered if perhaps the road been moved hence not matching up with the map or indeed the signal was affected due to the speed. Just a hiccup on the iDrive? Anyone else encountered this?


Sushifiend

5,175 posts

137 months

Monday 24th August 2015
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Thermobaric said:
Had a weird thing recently when in Germany. Making use of the autobahns in a 2007 BMW E93 with iDrive with Pro nav. Going quite fast obviously and the signal would drop out and put the location somewhere not on the road. I wondered if perhaps the road been moved hence not matching up with the map or indeed the signal was affected due to the speed. Just a hiccup on the iDrive? Anyone else encountered this?
Don't know anything about the GPS in the E93, but my E46 330Ci never lost its GPS signal on the built in nav even when at V-max on the Autobahn. My phone GPS also seems to work correctly even when cruising in an airliner, so I doubt speed alone is a factor.

Monty Python

4,812 posts

197 months

Monday 24th August 2015
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If it's the DVD-based sat-nav then it may be the disc is dirty - I used to get this in my old 335d. The new hard-drive based system has been flawless.

Collectingbrass

2,209 posts

195 months

Monday 24th August 2015
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GPS was originally developed to put ICBMs on target. With that much explosive, you don't need to be on the right carriageway to take out the entire autobahn...

Itsallicanafford

2,765 posts

159 months

Monday 24th August 2015
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M3 CSL on the autobahn...180mph on the clock, Garmin confirmed the actual speed of 167mph when we hit the soft limiter

meduk1

29 posts

108 months

Thursday 27th August 2015
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I don't believe that speed is an issue. This occasionally happens with my sat nav at regular speeds where it suddenly thinks I'm on a road that's running parallel.

I've was going about 160 on the autobahns a few weeks ago and satnav was fine.

Leins

9,462 posts

148 months

Thursday 27th August 2015
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Itsallicanafford said:
M3 CSL on the autobahn...180mph on the clock, Garmin confirmed the actual speed of 167mph when we hit the soft limiter
They still have a good bit to go after that when unrestricted, probably another 10-15mph judging by the difference to another CSL that hit its limiter. Speedo was off the clocks in mine

Remember the phone GPS giving up the ghost at 160+

stef1808

950 posts

157 months

Thursday 27th August 2015
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Pretty sure radio signals travel at the speed of light. I'm sure you where going fast on the autobahn but I think that's being kinda optimistic hehe

eliot

11,423 posts

254 months

Thursday 27th August 2015
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They use GPS on planes - which are even faster.

bearman68

4,652 posts

132 months

Thursday 27th August 2015
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No it has been known.
You get Doppler effect depending on the angle between the satellite and the car. Clearly the Doppler is more effected by speed, and the GPS frequency changes.
Since the information is mainly transferred by frequency, it's possible that there is a positional error on the car.
Mind you it does depend on the relative position of the car and the satellite. If it's side on, or you are heading towards it, the effect is much less severe, and the inaccuracies much much less.

Just occasionally the angle of the windscreen will effect the frequency as well,and you completely lose the sat nav tracking.

Huff

3,150 posts

191 months

Thursday 27th August 2015
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bearman68 said:
No it has been known.
You get Doppler effect depending on the angle between the satellite and the car. Clearly the Doppler is more effected by speed, and the GPS frequency changes.
Since the information is mainly transferred by frequency, it's possible that there is a positional error on the car.
Mind you it does depend on the relative position of the car and the satellite. If it's side on, or you are heading towards it, the effect is much less severe, and the inaccuracies much much less.

Just occasionally the angle of the windscreen will effect the frequency as well,and you completely lose the sat nav tracking.
Probably a matter of how many sats are actually 'visible' to the receiver than anything else. IIRC it's a min 4 reqd for position, and 7 or more is optimal. It's a 1.58Ghz signal so quite easily shielded.

RichardM5

1,736 posts

136 months

Friday 28th August 2015
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GPS was designed to provide accurate positioning at speeds in excess of 1,000 knots for use in US military fast jets and ICBMs. Speed is not going to be a limitation for any car.

Sushifiend

5,175 posts

137 months

Friday 28th August 2015
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bearman68 said:
No it has been known.
You get Doppler effect depending on the angle between the satellite and the car. Clearly the Doppler is more effected by speed, and the GPS frequency changes.
Since the information is mainly transferred by frequency, it's possible that there is a positional error on the car.
Mind you it does depend on the relative position of the car and the satellite. If it's side on, or you are heading towards it, the effect is much less severe, and the inaccuracies much much less.

Just occasionally the angle of the windscreen will effect the frequency as well,and you completely lose the sat nav tracking.
That's not how GPS works. It's not working out position by doppler shift and no speed you travel in a car, plane or rocket it going to be be high enough to doppler shift the signal so much that the GPS receiver can no longer lock on to the signal. GPS works by comparing an accurate internal clock and ephemeris data with a time signal received from the satellites to work out distance from each satellite, and from that a position is triangulated.

GPS signals are incredibly weak and can easily be interfered with by local signal reflections from buildings, trees and geographical features such as mountains. The signals fade in and out in much the same way as an AM (or FM) radio signal does when you're at the limit of the range of the station transmitter. It's entirely possible that some of the satellites providing a positional fix can be transiently invisible, and that can cause the triangulated positional fix to wander.

Most road-oriented GPS systems have a map database, and when at speed the system will snap the vehicle position to a mapped road closest to the triangulated fix. That's why you can sometimes see the position marker travelling along the map on a road parallel to the one which you're actually on.

bearman68

4,652 posts

132 months

Friday 28th August 2015
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Sushifiend said:
That's not how GPS works. It's not working out position by doppler shift and no speed you travel in a car, plane or rocket it going to be be high enough to doppler shift the signal so much that the GPS receiver can no longer lock on to the signal. GPS works by comparing an accurate internal clock and ephemeris data with a time signal received from the satellites to work out distance from each satellite, and from that a position is triangulated.

GPS signals are incredibly weak and can easily be interfered with by local signal reflections from buildings, trees and geographical features such as mountains. The signals fade in and out in much the same way as an AM (or FM) radio signal does when you're at the limit of the range of the station transmitter. It's entirely possible that some of the satellites providing a positional fix can be transiently invisible, and that can cause the triangulated positional fix to wander.

Most road-oriented GPS systems have a map database, and when at speed the system will snap the vehicle position to a mapped road closest to the triangulated fix. That's why you can sometimes see the position marker travelling along the map on a road parallel to the one which you're actually on.
Sorry, was trolling a bit. I was wondering how long it would take for someone to pick me up on my obvious BS.
You're (probably) right, but it amused me for 24 hrs smile

mr_fibuli

1,109 posts

195 months

Monday 31st August 2015
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According to this civilian GPS will shut off if you exceed 1200mph or 60,000 feet. How fast were you going?