Cracked Brake Discs M5 F10

[bmboy]

Hey guys

Looking for a bit of advice. Had my M5 into Douglas park bmw in Glasgow a few days ago. Explained to them that when I was braking I could feel a vibration coming through the steering wheel they took the car on a road test and advised that they couldn't find any fault.I then asked if this could be checked again as I was 100% sure there was a fault.

Bmw have now advised me that my car has warped brake discs as well as this they are also starting to crack around were the small drilled holes are. (bmw have not however mentioned anything about them being cracked i have had second opinion and was told then)

My car is around a year and a half old now with only just 12500 miles on it has never been tracked always road driving only. Brakes pads I could expect to replace but the fact my discs are cracking is weird to me.

Bmw have said to replace the disc with new pads will cost me near £2000 which I think is shocking tbh.

Looking for a bit of advice from people to see if they think this would fall under a warranty claim as brake discs cracking in my opinion is ridiculous for this type of car considering it doesn't get driving hard.

Any advise on this would be great thanks.

[Zod]

It happened to the rear discs on my E60 M5 after less than 20k miles. I was not happy at having to pay.

[W8PMC]

bmboy said:

Hey guys

Looking for a bit of advice. Had my M5 into Douglas park bmw in Glasgow a few days ago. Explained to them that when I was braking I could feel a vibration coming through the steering wheel they took the car on a road test and advised that they couldn't find any fault.I then asked if this could be checked again as I was 100% sure there was a fault.

Bmw have now advised me that my car has warped brake discs as well as this they are also starting to crack around were the small drilled holes are. (bmw have not however mentioned anything about them being cracked i have had second opinion and was told then)

My car is around a year and a half old now with only just 12500 miles on it has never been tracked always road driving only. Brakes pads I could expect to replace but the fact my discs are cracking is weird to me.

Bmw have said to replace the disc with new pads will cost me near £2000 which I think is shocking tbh.

Looking for a bit of advice from people to see if they think this would fall under a warranty claim as brake discs cracking in my opinion is ridiculous for this type of car considering it doesn't get driving hard.

Any advise on this would be great thanks.

Firstly & i've checked this out in detail over the past couple of weeks, if the cracks are purely just a few mm emanating from the drilled holes then this is NOT an issue. Once these cracks become say an inch in length then perhaps start thinking about replacement. You'll be able to tell looking at the disc when they becoming a more urgent replace.

Secondly you're dealer is taking the p1ss regarding the cost to replace as due to the same thing (just cracks) happening to mine, my local dealer took it upon themselves to quote & i was told £1500 all in for front discs & pads, so for your dealer to require a further £500 is OTT. You were also probably told if the discs are replaced you'll need new pads, no matter what condition your pads are in. This again is total bo11ox unless of course the pads are at minimum levels (your iDrive will confirm this).

Lastly for a warranty claim you'd certainly struggle due to cracking, however a case against them being warped may be the path to follow. Saying that mine's been tracked quite a bit, however the rest of it's life is mainly long schleps up & down the motorway so limited heavy/hard braking. My car is 16mths old & has 17700 miles on it.

[hertfordshire1]

I wouldn't be happy either..

I know some others have had similar issues, but I believe those cars were exposed to track work..

12500 miles to kill a set of discs and pads on the road - is not very encouraging...

If I were in your shoes, i'd be speaking to the supplying dealer for some warranty work..

[bmboy]

sorry should of said there price to replace did include new pads aswell but as said on this the price is still a joke and they certinaly wont be doing any work to the car at that price.

after speaking to a few other mechanics they advised that the best way would be for me to try and claim them on warranty because they are starting to crack.

think i am most likely going to have to go to bmw direct becuase after speaking to my local dealer dont think ill be getting anywhere with them.

[W8PMC]

hertfordshire1 said:

I wouldn't be happy either..

I know some others have had similar issues, but I believe those cars were exposed to track work..

12500 miles to kill a set of discs and pads on the road - is not very encouraging...

If I were in your shoes, i'd be speaking to the supplying dealer for some warranty work..

Discs yes (if no track action), but pads depending on usage on a car this powerful & heavy could be expected to need replacing at anything from 10k miles. My rears needed replacing at 7k miles (with a couple of track days) but my fronts only need replacing now with 17k miles & many track days, however the rears also need replacing again.

Not sure the O/P said the pads on his were worn, just that the dealer said they should be replaced if fitting new discs, which is the same B/S mine told me.

[W8PMC]

bmboy said:

sorry should of said there price to replace did include new pads aswell but as said on this the price is still a joke and they certinaly wont be doing any work to the car at that price.

after speaking to a few other mechanics they advised that the best way would be for me to try and claim them on warranty because they are starting to crack.

think i am most likely going to have to go to bmw direct becuase after speaking to my local dealer dont think ill be getting anywhere with them.

I did assume that & the price i posted was for front discs & pads fitted, so still £500 cheaper from a different dealer. Also note that you really have no reason to visit a BMW dealer for the replacement of consumables. You'd unlikely get new tyres from BWM so why brakes?. Go to a decent Indy & you'll save at least 25% & more likely closer to 50%. I had rear pads supplied & fitted by an Indy for £110 on my F10 M5.

As said, i feel you've half a chance of a claim if they're badly warped (mine have no such issue), but light cracking from the drilled holes is par for the course.

[foxsasha]

I'd go straight to small claims, 12k miles is unacceptable. I'd be extremely confident that BMW will back down rather than go to court.

The vibration will most probably be down to pad deposits on the discs causing high spots, not literal warping. The main cause is coming to a complete stop with hot brakes. The heat transfers into the pad surface from the rotor causing resin deposits on the rotor face. Sitting with your foot on the brakes exacerbates the heat transfer as does putting the handbrake on.

In rare cases it can be possible to scrub the deposits off the rotor faces by taking the car out and braking hard. I mean HARD. And not just jabs at the pedal but prolonged hard braking. Obviously this requires you getting the car upto a reasonable speed in the first place and only works occasionally but as a no cost potential fix its worth a try. I wouldnt advise trying it if the vibration has progressed to a point where you are getting severe steering wheel shake.

We have also had reasonable success in removing pad deposits with a highly abrasive set of race pads and again using the brakes hard. The abrasive pad compound scrubs the build up off the rotor face. This has proven successful in around 35% of cases I've been involved with. You obviously need to source a set of race compound pads though and I'd imagine the cost of F10 pad sets make this a prohibitively expensive option.

[Schermerhorn]

Front pair of left and right BMW F10 M5 brake discs

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-Genuine-Front-Drille...

Genuine items from a BMW dealer with a 2 year warranty

£946.00


These guys are also doing them for less than £600.00 and OEM quality too apparently

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-BMW-F10-F12-F13-M5-M...

And Eurocarparts keep the pads in stock (TEXTAR same brand that many OEM BMW's use) all the time too.

[W8PMC]

foxsasha said:

I'd go straight to small claims, 12k miles is unacceptable. I'd be extremely confident that BMW will back down rather than go to court.

The vibration will most probably be down to pad deposits on the discs causing high spots, not literal warping. The main cause is coming to a complete stop with hot brakes. The heat transfers into the pad surface from the rotor causing resin deposits on the rotor face. Sitting with your foot on the brakes exacerbates the heat transfer as does putting the handbrake on.

In rare cases it can be possible to scrub the deposits off the rotor faces by taking the car out and braking hard. I mean HARD. And not just jabs at the pedal but prolonged hard braking. Obviously this requires you getting the car upto a reasonable speed in the first place and only works occasionally but as a no cost potential fix its worth a try. I wouldnt advise trying it if the vibration has progressed to a point where you are getting severe steering wheel shake.

We have also had reasonable success in removing pad deposits with a highly abrasive set of race pads and again using the brakes hard. The abrasive pad compound scrubs the build up off the rotor face. This has proven successful in around 35% of cases I've been involved with. You obviously need to source a set of race compound pads though and I'd imagine the cost of F10 pad sets make this a prohibitively expensive option.

Pads & discs are a consumable & as such i'd be fairly sure any claim would be laughed out of court as no way you can prove you drive the car soft or hard.

If the O/P feels the discs have failed him & are faulty then BMW will honour the warranty, however the fact they're not would as it suggests lead one to believe being a consumable, they're just showing their age/usage. The cracks are consistent with most owners experiences, the warping would again point to hard use as certainly not a known issue on the F10. I'm not saying a fault isn't possible, but most factors point towards wear & tear, albeit a tad quicker than the O/P would have wished for.

If the vibration is as you say down to heat deposits, then that again indicates hard use so claiming for small cracks in the discs will be next to impossible. I'm making the assumption however that they are small cracks & of course if they're totally fooked & about to shatter than a warranty claim is totally justified & BMW would find it hard to argue this.

[anonymous-user]

W8PMC said:

foxsasha said:

I'd go straight to small claims, 12k miles is unacceptable. I'd be extremely confident that BMW will back down rather than go to court.

The vibration will most probably be down to pad deposits on the discs causing high spots, not literal warping. The main cause is coming to a complete stop with hot brakes. The heat transfers into the pad surface from the rotor causing resin deposits on the rotor face. Sitting with your foot on the brakes exacerbates the heat transfer as does putting the handbrake on.

In rare cases it can be possible to scrub the deposits off the rotor faces by taking the car out and braking hard. I mean HARD. And not just jabs at the pedal but prolonged hard braking. Obviously this requires you getting the car upto a reasonable speed in the first place and only works occasionally but as a no cost potential fix its worth a try. I wouldnt advise trying it if the vibration has progressed to a point where you are getting severe steering wheel shake.

We have also had reasonable success in removing pad deposits with a highly abrasive set of race pads and again using the brakes hard. The abrasive pad compound scrubs the build up off the rotor face. This has proven successful in around 35% of cases I've been involved with. You obviously need to source a set of race compound pads though and I'd imagine the cost of F10 pad sets make this a prohibitively expensive option.

Pads & discs are a consumable & as such i'd be fairly sure any claim would be laughed out of court as no way you can prove you drive the car soft or hard.

If the O/P feels the discs have failed him & are faulty then BMW will honour the warranty, however the fact they're not would as it suggests lead one to believe being a consumable, they're just showing their age/usage. The cracks are consistent with most owners experiences, the warping would again point to hard use as certainly not a known issue on the F10. I'm not saying a fault isn't possible, but most factors point towards wear & tear, albeit a tad quicker than the O/P would have wished for.

If the vibration is as you say down to heat deposits, then that again indicates hard use so claiming for small cracks in the discs will be next to impossible. I'm making the assumption however that they are small cracks & of course if they're totally fooked & about to shatter than a warranty claim is totally justified & BMW would find it hard to argue this.

This + I'd like to know how putting the handbrake on can increase pad deposits on the discs?

[anonymous-user]

W8PMC said:

foxsasha said:

I'd go straight to small claims, 12k miles is unacceptable. I'd be extremely confident that BMW will back down rather than go to court.

The vibration will most probably be down to pad deposits on the discs causing high spots, not literal warping. The main cause is coming to a complete stop with hot brakes. The heat transfers into the pad surface from the rotor causing resin deposits on the rotor face. Sitting with your foot on the brakes exacerbates the heat transfer as does putting the handbrake on.

In rare cases it can be possible to scrub the deposits off the rotor faces by taking the car out and braking hard. I mean HARD. And not just jabs at the pedal but prolonged hard braking. Obviously this requires you getting the car upto a reasonable speed in the first place and only works occasionally but as a no cost potential fix its worth a try. I wouldnt advise trying it if the vibration has progressed to a point where you are getting severe steering wheel shake.

We have also had reasonable success in removing pad deposits with a highly abrasive set of race pads and again using the brakes hard. The abrasive pad compound scrubs the build up off the rotor face. This has proven successful in around 35% of cases I've been involved with. You obviously need to source a set of race compound pads though and I'd imagine the cost of F10 pad sets make this a prohibitively expensive option.

Pads & discs are a consumable & as such i'd be fairly sure any claim would be laughed out of court as no way you can prove you drive the car soft or hard.

If the O/P feels the discs have failed him & are faulty then BMW will honour the warranty, however the fact they're not would as it suggests lead one to believe being a consumable, they're just showing their age/usage. The cracks are consistent with most owners experiences, the warping would again point to hard use as certainly not a known issue on the F10. I'm not saying a fault isn't possible, but most factors point towards wear & tear, albeit a tad quicker than the O/P would have wished for.

If the vibration is as you say down to heat deposits, then that again indicates hard use so claiming for small cracks in the discs will be next to impossible. I'm making the assumption however that they are small cracks & of course if they're totally fooked & about to shatter than a warranty claim is totally justified & BMW would find it hard to argue this.

This + I'd like to know how putting the handbrake on can increase pad deposits on the discs?

[AW10]

Ignoring the cracks for a moment how heavily worn are the disks?

[S800VXR]

If the discs are well within thickness and the cracks are small and not reaching the edge of the disc you should be fine. As others have said already, the vibration is deposits on the disc surface which have come from the pads when they have been very hot. If they have just started to vibrate I'd be tempted to get some decent pad like RS29s or something then bed them in properly, if your lucky the high points won't have heat cycled enough to change the molecular structure of the metal and you will scrub off the deposits. If you have lived with the vibration for a while then the constant point loading and heating of the high points may have changed the metal structure locally and you won't clean them up.

[bmboy]

The discs bmw have said me are really and I have hand another mechanic check these as well who is a friend just to make sure and he is saying the same thing. But he is saying they should be changed under warranty due to how new and low Milage the car is.

[foxsasha]

It's not so much about winning in court, it's about putting serious pressure on the dealer to have them back down and replace the discs foc before it gets that far. As I said, if it was me that's what I'd do, I'd threaten to take them to court then, if that didn't get the result I was after, I'd process the claim and see what happened when the paperwork landed with the dealer. If that didn't work then I'd see them in court with evidence to suggest that 12k miles isn't the typical life of front discs for that vehicle.

Bear in mind that the chances of the dealer having any idea about the actual reason for the vibration are minimal so when the service manager asks a technician for his input I'd be surprised if he could give sufficient info for the dealer principle to dismiss the court paperwork as laughable. Would you go to court over a couple of hundreds quids worth of product (bearing in mind I imagine BMW themselves (not the dealer) would stand the product cost which at source is minimal when you look at actual cost then remove vat and tax) when you arent sure of the outcome?

You might roll over and just pay the £1500, I wouldn't. I'd push hard for the sake of the minimal court costs. The OP asked for advice, I'm telling him what I'd do. You tell him what you'd do and he can take our collective input on board and do what he thinks best.

Putting the handbrake on pushes the pads into the rotor so if you do so with hot brakes it's the same effect as sitting there with your foot on the pedal, just on the rear rotors alone, not all four.

We use Performance Friction PF01 as the aggressive pad to remove deposits but RS29s, 15s or RST3s should work too. I just haven't tried them. We do run them as race pads though. Very very good pads. Bear in mind that they aren't road legal if fitted to a standard brake set up though. They aren't R90 compliant. No pad aggressive enough to remove deposits will be R90 compliant.

Edited by foxsasha on Monday 24th August 18:50

Edited by foxsasha on Monday 24th August 18:52

[W8PMC]

foxsasha said:

It's not so much about winning in court, it's about putting serious pressure on the dealer to have them back down and replace the discs foc before it gets that far. As I said, if it was me that's what I'd do, I'd threaten to take them to court then, if that didn't get the result I was after, I'd process the claim and see what happened when the paperwork landed with the dealer. If that didn't work then I'd see them in court with evidence to suggest that 12k miles isn't the typical life of front discs for that vehicle.

Bear in mind that the chances of the dealer having any idea about the actual reason for the vibration are minimal so when the service manager asks a technician for his input I'd be surprised if he could give sufficient info for the dealer principle to dismiss the court paperwork as laughable. Would you go to court over a couple of hundreds quids worth of product (bearing in mind I imagine BMW themselves (not the dealer) would stand the product cost which at source is minimal when you look at actual cost then remove vat and tax) when you arent sure of the outcome?

You might roll over and just pay the £1500, I wouldn't. I'd push hard for the sake of the minimal court costs. The OP asked for advice, I'm telling him what I'd do. You tell him what you'd do and he can take our collective input on board and do what he thinks best.

Putting the handbrake on pushes the pads into the rotor so if you do so with hot brakes it's the same effect as sitting there with your foot on the pedal, just on the rear rotors alone, not all four.

We use Performance Friction PF01 as the aggressive pad to remove deposits but RS29s, 15s or RST3s should work too. I just haven't tried them. We do run them as race pads though. Very very good pads. Bear in mind that they aren't road legal if fitted to a standard brake set up though. They aren't R90 compliant. No pad aggressive enough to remove deposits will be R90 compliant.

Edited by foxsasha on Monday 24th August 18:50

Edited by foxsasha on Monday 24th August 18:52

I guess we must differ in where we accept our own faults/responsibilities.

Small cracks in the front discs at 18mths old is absolutely fair wear & tear, although i can share the O/P's frustration but this is a 600bhp 2 ton car so hardly a huge surprise. To threaten a dealer with court action to blag a free set under warranty is totally taking the p1ss. If that's your thing then fair enough, however i tend to prefer to pay for the things i've used. As i've said, if the discs have failed then fair enough, however it hardly seems to be the case based on the above.

Also you say that Pagid RS29's are not legal for Road Use. Are you sure about that as i've had them fitted to cars in the past for road/track use & they're about to be fitted to my F10 M5.

[foxsasha]

I'm speculating without doing any research but 12k miles doesn't shout fair life to me. I certainly wouldn't consider a potential £12000 bill for 8 sets of front brakes over a 100k life of a car acceptable. But that's just me.

To the best of my knowledge none of the Padgid race range is R90 compliant so none of it is road legal when installed to an OE brake system. They're race pads, not road pads. Although they do work spectacularly well when installed on road cars

ETA: I'm taking the OP at his word here that the car hasn't been used on track and hasn't been abused on the road.

Edited by foxsasha on Tuesday 25th August 19:55

[W8PMC]

foxsasha said:

I'm speculating without doing any research but 12k miles doesn't shout fair life to me. I certainly wouldn't consider a potential £12000 bill for 8 sets of front brakes over a 100k life of a car acceptable. But that's just me.

To the best of my knowledge none of the Padgid race range is R90 compliant so none of it is road legal when installed to an OE brake system. They're race pads, not road pads. Although they do work spectacularly well when installed on road cars

ETA: I'm taking the OP at his word here that the car hasn't been used on track and hasn't been abused on the road.

Edited by foxsasha on Tuesday 25th August 19:55

I would agree that you'd hope the discs had a longer on road life than 12k miles, however as said it's a near as damn it 600bhp 2 ton car & even without track work the discs will show signs of wear very quickly & that includes small cracks emanating from the drill holes. If they've failed & it doesn't sound like they have then of course a warranty claim is a valid approach, but 12k miles is a fair stint & even though the O/P states he's not done any track days, a few major stomps with insufficient cooling can lead to light cracking on discs very easily/quickly.

My Pagid question was with regard to RS29's, which i'd always believed to be a fast road/track pad & thus approved for road use?

[IATM]

W8PMC said:

foxsasha said:

I'm speculating without doing any research but 12k miles doesn't shout fair life to me. I certainly wouldn't consider a potential £12000 bill for 8 sets of front brakes over a 100k life of a car acceptable. But that's just me.

To the best of my knowledge none of the Padgid race range is R90 compliant so none of it is road legal when installed to an OE brake system. They're race pads, not road pads. Although they do work spectacularly well when installed on road cars

ETA: I'm taking the OP at his word here that the car hasn't been used on track and hasn't been abused on the road.

Edited by foxsasha on Tuesday 25th August 19:55

I would agree that you'd hope the discs had a longer on road life than 12k miles, however as said it's a near as damn it 600bhp 2 ton car & even without track work the discs will show signs of wear very quickly & that includes small cracks emanating from the drill holes. If they've failed & it doesn't sound like they have then of course a warranty claim is a valid approach, but 12k miles is a fair stint & even though the O/P states he's not done any track days, a few major stomps with insufficient cooling can lead to light cracking on discs very easily/quickly.

My Pagid question was with regard to RS29's, which i'd always believed to be a fast road/track pad & thus approved for road use?

I have quite a lot of talk about cooling down the brakes and not sitting with the brake pedal pressed at traffic lights at a hard run but in these situations what are people doing?


So after a heard run how long are you meant to let the brakes cool and how?
What do people do if they come to a stop at lights?