Discussion
Carbon Black said:
Julian, they know because it is something people tend to ask and talk about when getting their car tuned.
For whatever reason, almost every driver goes away, with his increased power and doesn't bother telling the insurance company.
For example, I know 9 people with chipped cars, from Skoda fabia vRS, through Golf diesel to Lotus Exige turbo, who have not bothered mentioning the tuning to anyone.
The fact is, not many do.
The Exige Turbo is hardly a standard car anyway, has he told them it has got a turbo?
I know of several people with tuned cars to varying degrees, all but one of which have told their insurers (including people with remapped cars that according to you cannot be detected), all that just says I know more honest people, I certainly wouldn't be claiming that it meant 100% of people told their insurers!
I'm not calling them idiots by the way, just that they are commiting fraud and I hope none of them get a payout in the event of a crash.
Call DMS. They see things rather different to you.
Going by your philosophy, those who even change their air filter or tyre profile are 'uninsured and irresponsible'.
Because in theory, any change to standard could be deemed illegal, insurance-wise.
When customers of DMS and Superchips have got back to report how they are finding their new set-up, almost none had changed their insurance details. That came from the horses mouth this week.
>> Edited by Carbon Black on Thursday 23 February 17:00
Going by your philosophy, those who even change their air filter or tyre profile are 'uninsured and irresponsible'.
Because in theory, any change to standard could be deemed illegal, insurance-wise.
When customers of DMS and Superchips have got back to report how they are finding their new set-up, almost none had changed their insurance details. That came from the horses mouth this week.
>> Edited by Carbon Black on Thursday 23 February 17:00
dannylt said:
Hartge replied saying their 535d conversion is also available, just that their website lags reality. It shows a max power of 326bhp and massive increase in torque everywhere. The warranty statement is as follows.
"The Hartge Diesel Performance Kit is guaranteed for a period of 3 years and begins on the date of installation into the customers vehicle. For vehicles less than 6 months old, a guarantee for the vehicle’s engine and transmission is provided to the expiry date of the BMW's standard guarantee (max 3 years). For vehicles registered earlier than 6 months prior to conversion, the guarantee is 12 months after installation. In all cases, a maximum of 60,000 miles applies."
Cost is £1034, quite a lot.
I had a blow off valve fitted to my Noble. Strictly speaking it is a modification from standard, and therefore the insurance company should be informed. They wanted an extra £125. I argued that it made no difference to performance and that I would take my business elsewhere. They agreed to add it for nothing but I'll think twice before informing them again. It's such hard work!
I have had new lights, indicators etc etc. Again I told them to be safe. But where do you draw the line.
My wifes Discovery has a towbar and driving lights, again insurance company informed. It's modified.
I bet there are quite a few people out there who have modified there car in some small way but haven't informed the insurance company.
Should everyone with a modified car be penalised. Surely if it hasn't contributed to a car being stolen or an accident then its irrelavent anyway!!
I have had new lights, indicators etc etc. Again I told them to be safe. But where do you draw the line.
My wifes Discovery has a towbar and driving lights, again insurance company informed. It's modified.
I bet there are quite a few people out there who have modified there car in some small way but haven't informed the insurance company.
Should everyone with a modified car be penalised. Surely if it hasn't contributed to a car being stolen or an accident then its irrelavent anyway!!
Indeed, what skin is it off their nose if one of their customers is not insured.
Just because they claim an unprovable percentage of people don't notify their insurers it doesn't mean that all of a sudden there is no requirement to do so, just as other people not bothering with insurance at all somehow makes it ok for you not to bother as well.
It is fraud if you fail to tell your insurance company about your DMS remap when they ask if the vehicle has been modified, that is a fact and one that no amount of wriggling or saying "the other boys did it too" will change that fact.
Can you imagine claiming after a crash and the loss adjuster saying "we found it had been remapped but not to worry, DMS said 99% of people don't bother saying anything so we should pay out on it"
If you can afford the £700 remap you can afford the tiny additional premium of insuring it.
Just because they claim an unprovable percentage of people don't notify their insurers it doesn't mean that all of a sudden there is no requirement to do so, just as other people not bothering with insurance at all somehow makes it ok for you not to bother as well.
It is fraud if you fail to tell your insurance company about your DMS remap when they ask if the vehicle has been modified, that is a fact and one that no amount of wriggling or saying "the other boys did it too" will change that fact.
Can you imagine claiming after a crash and the loss adjuster saying "we found it had been remapped but not to worry, DMS said 99% of people don't bother saying anything so we should pay out on it"
If you can afford the £700 remap you can afford the tiny additional premium of insuring it.
Well put hunttheshunt.
What i have been saying all along.
How many enthusiasts keep their car 100 % standard and how many are going to tell their insurers about their new exhaust back box, or that they have raised the boost by 10%?
The FACT is that less than 1 in 10 people upgrade their insurance, when they mod their car.
>> Edited by Carbon Black on Thursday 23 February 17:07
What i have been saying all along.
How many enthusiasts keep their car 100 % standard and how many are going to tell their insurers about their new exhaust back box, or that they have raised the boost by 10%?
The FACT is that less than 1 in 10 people upgrade their insurance, when they mod their car.
>> Edited by Carbon Black on Thursday 23 February 17:07
Less than 1 in 10 based on what? Proof please or more anicdotal evidence based on what some bloke told you in order to sell you something?
Paul - yes, it is a pain but not as much of a pain as them not paying out if it is crashed. I rang my insurers asking how much it'd be to put bigger brakes on fully expecting a shafting and they came back and told me they'd cover them for nothing, luck of the draw I guess
I'd also suggest that a 20 odd percent increase in power and torque may be interpreted as having attributed to a crash...
>> Edited by m12_nathan on Thursday 23 February 17:22
Paul - yes, it is a pain but not as much of a pain as them not paying out if it is crashed. I rang my insurers asking how much it'd be to put bigger brakes on fully expecting a shafting and they came back and told me they'd cover them for nothing, luck of the draw I guess
I'd also suggest that a 20 odd percent increase in power and torque may be interpreted as having attributed to a crash... >> Edited by m12_nathan on Thursday 23 February 17:22
Well said Nathan.
It pees me off that people blame insurance companies for pricing up the ins to cover mods.
If I ran an ins co I would do the same.
If you dont tell your ins co then they CAN refuse to pay out. That means a few risks for you ie dont get a pay out for your car damage, the ins co doesnt pay out for 3rd parties, the ins 'bureau' pays out for 3rd party damage and then sues you for the money back- you lose your house and livelihood. The risk might be small but the impact is huge ie 3rd party costs can be many millions!
It is silly to argue this one out - individuals make their choices , they just ought to be aware of the fact that they are committing fraud and that they risk their livelihood if the gamble back fires.
It pees me off that people blame insurance companies for pricing up the ins to cover mods.
If I ran an ins co I would do the same.
If you dont tell your ins co then they CAN refuse to pay out. That means a few risks for you ie dont get a pay out for your car damage, the ins co doesnt pay out for 3rd parties, the ins 'bureau' pays out for 3rd party damage and then sues you for the money back- you lose your house and livelihood. The risk might be small but the impact is huge ie 3rd party costs can be many millions!
It is silly to argue this one out - individuals make their choices , they just ought to be aware of the fact that they are committing fraud and that they risk their livelihood if the gamble back fires.
Nathan, i got my figures from speaking to around 100 people at various car meets and by asking 3 very well respected car tuners as well.
5 quick examples of close friends with cars which are modded, but not declared;
2002 Dodge Viper. Air box mods and half free-flow exhaust.
2005 Corvette. Re-map and k&n filter.
2004 Nissan 350Z. Remap.
2004 Cooper S Works. Re-map.
2006 Lancer 1X 320. De-cat pipe and re-map.
When i asked, none of these had bothered adjusting insurance.
At the recent 'Australia Day' Holden/HSV meet in London, one guy from about forty said they had declared their mods.
It just doesn't happen, fact.
Would you declare a slightly different tyre or performance air filter?
Of course not.
>> Edited by Carbon Black on Thursday 23 February 18:54
5 quick examples of close friends with cars which are modded, but not declared;
2002 Dodge Viper. Air box mods and half free-flow exhaust.
2005 Corvette. Re-map and k&n filter.
2004 Nissan 350Z. Remap.
2004 Cooper S Works. Re-map.
2006 Lancer 1X 320. De-cat pipe and re-map.
When i asked, none of these had bothered adjusting insurance.
At the recent 'Australia Day' Holden/HSV meet in London, one guy from about forty said they had declared their mods.
It just doesn't happen, fact.
Would you declare a slightly different tyre or performance air filter?
Of course not.
>> Edited by Carbon Black on Thursday 23 February 18:54
If the tyre deviated from the minimum standard for the car (eg was a lower rating than specified) or was not the correct size then yes, changing brands but maintaining the correct size and speed rating then no.
If the air filter was a pattern part then no (no performance increase, see material facts below), if it was say a gruppe M induction kit then yes.
In short, any material fact that would influence the descision of an underwriter MUST be declared, if you are unsure then declare everything.
I'd make the reasonable assumption that a 20% increase in power changes your risk profile, when the insurance company ask you if you have modified the car and you knowingly lie so as not to increase premiums then that is fraud, you'll notice that they record calls and tell you that you have a legal obligation to disclose material facts.
www.lawcom.gov.uk/insurance_contract.htm
People who are knowingly not properly insured are selfish c*nts who increase everyone elses premiums.
I hope for your sake you don't kill anyone whilst approaching light speed in your unininsured 535d.
If the air filter was a pattern part then no (no performance increase, see material facts below), if it was say a gruppe M induction kit then yes.
In short, any material fact that would influence the descision of an underwriter MUST be declared, if you are unsure then declare everything.
I'd make the reasonable assumption that a 20% increase in power changes your risk profile, when the insurance company ask you if you have modified the car and you knowingly lie so as not to increase premiums then that is fraud, you'll notice that they record calls and tell you that you have a legal obligation to disclose material facts.
www.lawcom.gov.uk/insurance_contract.htm
People who are knowingly not properly insured are selfish c*nts who increase everyone elses premiums.
I hope for your sake you don't kill anyone whilst approaching light speed in your unininsured 535d.
Nathan is saying you're not covered by your insurance if you don't declare mods, which IMHO is largely correct if you go and read the small print.
Carbon is saying that lots of people don't declare mods, which IMHO is also correct.
You're not actually disagreeing about anything, guys...
outnumbered said:
Nathan is saying you're not covered by your insurance if you don't declare mods, which IMHO is largely correct if you go and read the small print.
Carbon is saying that lots of people don't declare mods, which IMHO is also correct.
You're not actually disagreeing about anything, guys...
Carbon is also saying that not declaring is fine because other people don't bother. I suggest if you ever get pulled over for speeding to simply tell the officer that it is fine because everyone else does it
I am also saying that Nathan is naive and unreasonable in thinking that anyone who puts a K and N air filter in their 1.1 Fiesta and doesn't tell their insurers should be hung, drawn and quartered.
In theory, that driver would be uninsured, but so what?
The insurers can be tough, but they're not that crazy.
So we should declare every tiny alteration? It never has happened and never will.
In theory, that driver would be uninsured, but so what?
The insurers can be tough, but they're not that crazy.
So we should declare every tiny alteration? It never has happened and never will.
I dont bother with insurance at all. Sod it. Whats the point.
OK not really true for me but it is for those with undeclared mods.
It isnt up to you to decide whether or not to declare somethng - declare everything and let your insurer decide. If you dont like what they say then move insurers or put your car back to original. This applies whether you fit a K&N or a re-chip.
I just looked for quotes via confused.com for my TVR. When I entered modified suspension not one insurer responded with a quote. With standard suspension they were all fine. So I understand the reservations re declaring this stuff but it cant be condoned.
OK not really true for me but it is for those with undeclared mods.
It isnt up to you to decide whether or not to declare somethng - declare everything and let your insurer decide. If you dont like what they say then move insurers or put your car back to original. This applies whether you fit a K&N or a re-chip.
I just looked for quotes via confused.com for my TVR. When I entered modified suspension not one insurer responded with a quote. With standard suspension they were all fine. So I understand the reservations re declaring this stuff but it cant be condoned.
Carbon Black said:
Nathan, I could just as easily call you a selfish 'c' (using your word) for your speeding.
(Don't even try and tell me you have never gone over the limit and never will.)
Speeding is far more dangerous to the public than having simply some more power under the bonnet, ffs.
I see that Nathan is STLL afraid of his own shadow!
I employ 17 people, 5 of which are PH members and car fanatics. 4 have modified cars and none of them have declared (the largely basic) mods to their insurers.
You should hand a tenner in, if you find it on the ground, but nobody does.
Shape up Nathan, like others have said, do you do 60 in a 60 100% of the time?
Right, no, so give the incessant wittering and whinging a rest mate.
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