Would a Z4 Coupe be a good upgrade for me?
Discussion
TameRacingDriver said:
Well after doing a bit of reading about running an M3, not to mention a few threads where the Z4 3.0 Coupe is compared with the E46 M3, I'm still pretty much settled on the Z4C.
Although insurance and VED won't be much difference, it would appear that the Z4 can manage 50% better MPG for starters. More MPG = more hoonage. The servicing costs on the M3 are a tad unsettling to say the least for someone trying to run a car on a semi-sensible budget. And some have even said they prefer the Z4C regardless of its relative lack of performance as a car that feels more special more of the time, with some folks saying that when you're not on it, the M3 does just feel like it could be a more run of the mill model.
So, Z4C it still is for me....
Having owned a couple of e46 M3s, a Z4C and a Z4MC, I think I'd say:Although insurance and VED won't be much difference, it would appear that the Z4 can manage 50% better MPG for starters. More MPG = more hoonage. The servicing costs on the M3 are a tad unsettling to say the least for someone trying to run a car on a semi-sensible budget. And some have even said they prefer the Z4C regardless of its relative lack of performance as a car that feels more special more of the time, with some folks saying that when you're not on it, the M3 does just feel like it could be a more run of the mill model.
So, Z4C it still is for me....
1. The M engine is an absolute peach. The 3.0Si is revvy and torquey and very, very good. But that S54 engine is just something else. And 340-odd BHP is materially more than 260-odd, and it shows.
2. The build quality and materials of the e46 were generally better. And the seats were more comfortable. The Z felt a little more modern and the e46 a bit more dated, but in terms of comfort, rattles, tactile materials etc, I found I preferred the e46.
3. The difference in mpg was nowhere near as stark as you suggest. Maybe 20% better in 3.0Si. On a motorway run the M3 would be doing high-20s while the 3.0Si would be doing low-to-mid-30s.
4. Touch wood I never got any big bills, and the Z4C and MC were being run under warranty anyway. But I'd imagine that finding a good specialist will help neutralise some of the dealer fixed price cost differentials. But without doubt you'd still be paying a bit more for parts.
5. Ride and handling were better in the e46. Certainly handling towards the limit was more predictable in the M3. For me, as a ham-fisted amateur, the Z felt a little more fidgety and snappy. And of course the e46 has a big boot and back seats.
6. The Z was, undoubtedly, the more "special" feeling car. Sitting just ahead of the rear wheels, with that long bonnet strectching ahead, with what remains perhaps one of the best looking back ends on any car made in the last 20 years, just feels a lot more of an event that the more ubiquitous e46.
On balance, if I were to own one of these cars again, I'd choose the e46 M3. It never felt "run of the mill", the extra oomph and better road manners were well worth the extra running costs (IMHO), and the S54 engine is one of the most glorious donkeys ever to have found a home in a mass produced automobile.
Edited by Gruber on Wednesday 14th October 08:08
AquaMatt said:
3 months ago I went from an FN2 to an E86 and I have loved every minute of it. The steering is marginally better but the feel of the whole car is so much more special. The economy is almost identical (just sub 30ish) as is the insurance but it feels so much faster in every day driving due to the extra torque. Also sounds glorious and really climbs up past x leptons when going flooring it in a way the Type R never did, you have been warned 
I would say get yourself in one and have a drive, keep in mind that they are very sensitive to tyres, pressure and geo so initially my Z4C did not feel as planted as the Civic.
Good luck searching and keep us updated!
Hi mate, thanks for the insight, your comments make me think that I will be happy with the change.I would say get yourself in one and have a drive, keep in mind that they are very sensitive to tyres, pressure and geo so initially my Z4C did not feel as planted as the Civic.
Good luck searching and keep us updated!
Mr Tidy said:
Actually I think that sums it up quite well - to me the Z4C feels special every time I drive it. Yes, it is even more special when I chase the red-line, but I don't feel the need to always do that!
I have never driven an M3, but can't help thinking any E46 Coupe would feel much the same until you find an empty road with no cameras - and then a Z4MC would surely be better still!
But my aim was to have something a bit different with great performance, while avoiding the M-tax.....
I have never driven an M3, but can't help thinking any E46 Coupe would feel much the same until you find an empty road with no cameras - and then a Z4MC would surely be better still!
But my aim was to have something a bit different with great performance, while avoiding the M-tax.....
Billy_Whizzzz said:
If you've never driven an M3, how could you speculate what it would be like? A BMW is defined by it's engine primarily, and chassis next. The M3 has one of the greatest engines ever made that is ever present, even at low speeds. It utterly defines the car. A 330i is nothing like an M3, and feels nothing like it. A Z4 is nothing like a Z4M and feels nothing like it. A Z4MC is pretty, but pretty characterless to drive. Great if you want one, just don't kid yourself it's anything like a Z4M or an M3 to drive, even at low speeds.
These two quotes here however do make me wonder. It seems very few people can agree on which is the more special feeling of the cars. We have a 3-series, often derided as "boring" but with an absolute beast of an engine under the bonnet, an LSD etc. I have to admit though I do have the thought that it may feel "normal 3-series" until you press on a bit, as I can't imagine the full benefit of this set up is felt until you're in attack mode, and that it might feel a little unsatisfying day to day especially with the potential running costs...
On the other hand, we have the Z4C, which is a proper sports car. OK no LSD and the engine is not as potent, but is still regarded as an absolute diamond of an engine. Although there are some doubts about handling and steering and some claim it feels anodyne, but why is this considering it has all the right ingredients?
I have to say also that the 350Z remains an outside contender for me, even though I've had one; mine was the Roadster but I'd want a coupe this time, and an early coupe isn't enormously heavier than the Z (correction: apparently it's 1,525 kg so it is quite porky after all) and it definitely didn't lack character either. Fuel economy was not great, but then Gruber's post below suggests I might not see the figures I'm expecting out of the Z4C anyway... and the Civic only gets 25 MPG round the doors on SUL anyway so it's not much of a concern.
Gruber said:
Having owned a couple of e46 M3s, a Z4C and a Z4MC, I think I'd say:
1. The M engine is an absolute peach. The 3.0Si is revvy and torquey and very, very good. But that S54 engine is just something else. And 340-odd BHP is materially more than 260-odd, and it shows.
2. The build quality and materials of the e46 were generally better. And the seats were more comfortable. The Z felt a little more modern and the e46 a bit more dated, but in terms of comfort, rattles, tactile materials etc, I found I preferred the e46.
3. The difference in mpg was nowhere near as stark as you suggest. Maybe 20% better in 3.0Si. On a motorway run the M3 would be doing high-20s while the 3.0Si would be doing low-to-mid-30s.
4. Touch wood I never got any big bills, and the Z4C and MC were being run under warranty anyway. But I'd imagine that finding a good specialist will help neutralise some of the dealer fixed price cost differentials. But without doubt you'd still be paying a bit more for parts.
5. Ride and handling were better in the e46. Certainly handling towards the limit was more predictable in the M3. For me, as a ham-fisted amateur, the Z felt a little more fidgety and snappy. And of course the e46 has a big boot and back seats.
6. The Z was, undoubtedly, the more "special" feeling car. Sitting just ahead of the rear wheels, with that long bonnet strectching ahead, with what remains perhaps one of the best looking back ends on any car made in the last 20 years, just feels a lot more of an event that the more ubiquitous e46.
On balance, if I were to own one of these cars again, I'd choose the e46 M3. It never felt "run of the mill", the extra oomph and better road manners were well worth the extra running costs (IMHO), and the S54 engine is one of the most glorious donkeys ever to have found a home in a mass produced automobile.
Thanks for your post, interesting to read... but I have to say I still worry about the potential wallet raping an M3 could deliver, and I'm just not sure it's a car to be run on a tight budget if I'm being honest, whereas I think I can manage the running costs of the Z4.1. The M engine is an absolute peach. The 3.0Si is revvy and torquey and very, very good. But that S54 engine is just something else. And 340-odd BHP is materially more than 260-odd, and it shows.
2. The build quality and materials of the e46 were generally better. And the seats were more comfortable. The Z felt a little more modern and the e46 a bit more dated, but in terms of comfort, rattles, tactile materials etc, I found I preferred the e46.
3. The difference in mpg was nowhere near as stark as you suggest. Maybe 20% better in 3.0Si. On a motorway run the M3 would be doing high-20s while the 3.0Si would be doing low-to-mid-30s.
4. Touch wood I never got any big bills, and the Z4C and MC were being run under warranty anyway. But I'd imagine that finding a good specialist will help neutralise some of the dealer fixed price cost differentials. But without doubt you'd still be paying a bit more for parts.
5. Ride and handling were better in the e46. Certainly handling towards the limit was more predictable in the M3. For me, as a ham-fisted amateur, the Z felt a little more fidgety and snappy. And of course the e46 has a big boot and back seats.
6. The Z was, undoubtedly, the more "special" feeling car. Sitting just ahead of the rear wheels, with that long bonnet strectching ahead, with what remains perhaps one of the best looking back ends on any car made in the last 20 years, just feels a lot more of an event that the more ubiquitous e46.
On balance, if I were to own one of these cars again, I'd choose the e46 M3. It never felt "run of the mill", the extra oomph and better road manners were well worth the extra running costs (IMHO), and the S54 engine is one of the most glorious donkeys ever to have found a home in a mass produced automobile.
Edited by Gruber on Wednesday 14th October 08:08
Don't get me wrong, I really would like an M3 (or a Z4MC even) but I think it's more car than I can reasonably justify or afford, and if I could afford to run one of those, I'm sure there'd be a few other contenders.
Edited by TameRacingDriver on Thursday 15th October 11:57
I am in much the same boat as you, although I am coming from a regular civic! I went to view a couple of saphire black cars today, I am not convinced on the black (although Mr Tidys Ruby Red is very nice in the metal) and was going along to get an impression of the car with the missus who had previously never sat in one.
I was wondering if I could get a few opinions on prices: I have seen a couple of low mileage (sub 50k) cars heading up to £14-15k quite suddenly. The two I saw today were at 75k and 40k and while the lower mileage was definitely a cleaner car I am struggling to get past the extra £2k the dealer was asking (before negotiation) given the similar spec (only difference being cruise control).
I was also surprised how differently they drove, the higher milage car was on P Zero Run flats and felt smooth and compliant while the other was on older Michelin run flats and felt hesitant to move off centre and harsher (it also pulled slightly to the left- alignment issue maybe? any advice greatly received).
Despite feeling like a rather over excited schoolboy I managed not to buy the lower mileage car there and then and after a few hours I think I am going to leave it and wait for a colour/spec/combo that I want to come up (blue/light leather/parking/cruise). I am in no rush and think the dealer is being more than a little optimistic with his pricing.
What an engine note though, I had heard it said that the engine dominated the experience but i was not expecting it to be that intrusive (it the best possible sense).
I was wondering if I could get a few opinions on prices: I have seen a couple of low mileage (sub 50k) cars heading up to £14-15k quite suddenly. The two I saw today were at 75k and 40k and while the lower mileage was definitely a cleaner car I am struggling to get past the extra £2k the dealer was asking (before negotiation) given the similar spec (only difference being cruise control).
I was also surprised how differently they drove, the higher milage car was on P Zero Run flats and felt smooth and compliant while the other was on older Michelin run flats and felt hesitant to move off centre and harsher (it also pulled slightly to the left- alignment issue maybe? any advice greatly received).
Despite feeling like a rather over excited schoolboy I managed not to buy the lower mileage car there and then and after a few hours I think I am going to leave it and wait for a colour/spec/combo that I want to come up (blue/light leather/parking/cruise). I am in no rush and think the dealer is being more than a little optimistic with his pricing.
What an engine note though, I had heard it said that the engine dominated the experience but i was not expecting it to be that intrusive (it the best possible sense).
BevR said:
What an engine note though, I had heard it said that the engine dominated the experience but i was not expecting it to be that intrusive (it the best possible sense).
That is exactly what I wanted to hear actually. I had a feeling that like other BMWs I've had, the engine would sound gorgeous but rather muted, but it seems this isn't the case based on what you're saying. The engine is probably the thing that draws me to it the most.Must admit though I'm only really looking to pay around £8K-£10K for one.
I had a talk with some petrolheads mates the other day over a few beers, because like I always do, I sort of started to think about other cars, but I'm definitely thinking back to the Z again...
Some of my musings:-
350Z - been there (although not with the coupe), and although I like it and it has a lot of character, it is thirsty and it is a heavy beast of a car, though it does handle well. I suspect it would have been a much stronger candidate had I not owned one before. Certainly one of the late 313 bhp models which revs to 7,500 rpm is going to be very fast and a lot of fun. I won't totally rule it out but it's definitely still in second place.
Elise / VX220 - I do like the idea of these cars, but I suspect it'll be the practicalities that kill these cars off for me, despite having always wanted to own one, I have to think of things like my other half not being able to get in or out of it (she has bad arthritis in the knees), and also I'm not sure I'd particularly enjoy winters with these cars, or when I have to do the occasional 150 mile return journey to work in another office.
MR2 Mk3 - A much cheaper option, and more practical and usable than the Elise, it would save me a few quid in running costs. However, as standard, they are too slow. I mean, that wouldn't be a problem if we had no traffic on the road at all, but having a car with over 200 bhp makes overtaking a lot easier than having 130 bhp! So then I was thinking of the 2ZZ conversion, however, this is looking like an extra £4K and is a risky endeavour (will the conversion be done properly, and you don't neccesarily know the history of the engine you're putting in it). I'm also not sold on the looks. It could end up being almost Lotus Elise money to make it how I want it, with none of the re-sale value, so that option is ruled out.
MX5 Turbo / Supercharged - This is another option that kind of appealed. I have actually had 2 MX5s though and this puts me off for many of the same reasons as the 350Z, and my first was supercharged for a while. However, once again I'd be looking at a lot of money for a very old and potentially high maintenance cars. IMO when they're standard they're fairly proof but in my personal experience the supercharged one was a lot higher maintenance. A potentially never ending series of maintenance and on-going modifications, and frankly, I can't be arsed with it.
S2000 - This was the first car I thought of when I ruled out the 2ZZ MR2. OK its front engined unlike the MR2, but the basic premise would seem to be fairly similar; relatively light weight and a powerful and high revving engine. The engines in these Honda's are fantastic, but I'm trying to get away from the style of engine anyway - they only sound good when they're being pushed hard, and pushing even a Civic Type-R hard to enjoy the engine properly gets you into ban territory very easily. So again, I think it probably isn't for me.
And so that leads me back on to the Z4. It would seem that the engine can be enjoyed under all circumstances. It can be lazy when you want it to be but also quite revvy when you want to get on it. They look nice to my eyes. They wont rape you with running costs, and it would seem the drive is a step above the more mundane 1 and 3-series (the 130i was also a contender, but I have a feeling it just won't look or feel special enough to justify changing). I'm after a car that has a real feel good factor to it and I can see the Z4 delivering this in spades.
Incidentally I took the Civic out for a hoon yesterday. It was amazing fun, and I almost thought there and then do I really want to get rid, but then I again noticed the speed was rather high, shall we say, and that the reason I want to change is due to how ordinary it feels at low speeds. It could be any relatively unrefined 4-pot petrol using it day to day, whereas everything about the Z4 would be enjoyable, from just getting into it, starting it up, the driving position, the engine noise, it would seem to be a fantastic all-round package.
Billy_Whizzzz said:
If you've never driven an M3, how could you speculate what it would be like? A BMW is defined by it's engine primarily, and chassis next. The M3 has one of the greatest engines ever made that is ever present, even at low speeds. It utterly defines the car. A 330i is nothing like an M3, and feels nothing like it. A Z4 is nothing like a Z4M and feels nothing like it. A Z4MC is pretty, but pretty characterless to drive. Great if you want one, just don't kid yourself it's anything like a Z4M or an M3 to drive, even at low speeds.
As I've never driven an M3 I can SPECULATE upon what it may be like, whereas I cannot offer an opinion, but then I am not doing so!My post may have been badly phrased but as a place to sit the driving seat of an E46 M3 surely cannot feel so much more special than any other E46, although I realise that to drive it is dynamically doubtlessly a different experience altogether!
BUT to me a Z4C Sport driving seat is always going to feel more "sporting".
BTW, how is a "characterless, pretty" Z4MC not anything like a Z4M to drive - surely it is a Z4M FFS.................
Mr Tidy said:
Billy_Whizzzz said:
If you've never driven an M3, how could you speculate what it would be like? A BMW is defined by it's engine primarily, and chassis next. The M3 has one of the greatest engines ever made that is ever present, even at low speeds. It utterly defines the car. A 330i is nothing like an M3, and feels nothing like it. A Z4 is nothing like a Z4M and feels nothing like it. A Z4C is pretty, but pretty characterless to drive. Great if you want one, just don't kid yourself it's anything like a Z4M or an M3 to drive, even at low speeds.
As I've never driven an M3 I can SPECULATE upon what it may be like, whereas I cannot offer an opinion, but then I am not doing so!My post may have been badly phrased but as a place to sit the driving seat of an E46 M3 surely cannot feel so much more special than any other E46, although I realise that to drive it is dynamically doubtlessly a different experience altogether!
BUT to me a Z4C Sport driving seat is always going to feel more "sporting".
BTW, how is a "characterless, pretty" Z4MC not anything like a Z4M to drive - surely it is a Z4M FFS.................
So... being the person I am, I have changed my mind lots of times, considering at times Elise, MR2 Mk3 (2ZZ), MX5 SC, S2000, 350Z, but I think I'm set on the Z4. I know they have their critics, but for the things that matter to me, they are as good as it gets I should think. I'm after a more laid back but still fun and sonorous car without ridiculous running costs. I like the look of the Z4C and it will suit me down to the ground. Looks like I can get a really minty one in the £8K-£10K range, so I am well and truly sold. Roll on next year.
OP, just a shame you are over 200 miles away from me! I would have been happy to let you have a good look around my Z4C.
Not sure if it is allowed, but I would recommend joining the Z4forum - very helpful and informative, and they have a few members up your way who may be able to assist.
Took mine for a run today and I was grinning from ear to ear once more - just such a great car, and that N52 engine is such a great sound-track!
Hope you find one you like.
Not sure if it is allowed, but I would recommend joining the Z4forum - very helpful and informative, and they have a few members up your way who may be able to assist.
Took mine for a run today and I was grinning from ear to ear once more - just such a great car, and that N52 engine is such a great sound-track!
Hope you find one you like.
Mr Tidy said:
OP, just a shame you are over 200 miles away from me! I would have been happy to let you have a good look around my Z4C.
Not sure if it is allowed, but I would recommend joining the Z4forum - very helpful and informative, and they have a few members up your way who may be able to assist.
Took mine for a run today and I was grinning from ear to ear once more - just such a great car, and that N52 engine is such a great sound-track!
Hope you find one you like.
Hi mate I'll check that forum out, also feel free to send me any decent pics of yours!Not sure if it is allowed, but I would recommend joining the Z4forum - very helpful and informative, and they have a few members up your way who may be able to assist.
Took mine for a run today and I was grinning from ear to ear once more - just such a great car, and that N52 engine is such a great sound-track!
Hope you find one you like.
I think I'm after a black one with the multi-spoke alloys, manual box.
This one here in terms of looks at least would be PERFECT for me I think, but unfortunately I am not in a position to buy really at the moment until the back end of the winter, but I have to say if this was local to me I'd be VERY tempted to check it out anyway!
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2007-07-BMW-Z4-3-0si-Spo...
OP, you asked for photos so here are a few:-
Was trying to pick up the colour in the last one, but photo doesn't do it justice!
Mine is Ruby Black Individual so in sunlight from some angles it looks more purple than black - I really like that it's a bit different, although this time of year it usually just looks black!
It has the 135M wheels - I really didn't want the 108M split-rims that many have as at this age they all seem to be suffering from some bubbling of the lacquer around the bolts.
My work situation is looking a bit iffy just now - depending how that pans out I may have to consider selling mine (
) so it might be worth sending me a PM when you are ready to buy, or if you want to know a bit more about it.
Was trying to pick up the colour in the last one, but photo doesn't do it justice!
Mine is Ruby Black Individual so in sunlight from some angles it looks more purple than black - I really like that it's a bit different, although this time of year it usually just looks black!
It has the 135M wheels - I really didn't want the 108M split-rims that many have as at this age they all seem to be suffering from some bubbling of the lacquer around the bolts.
My work situation is looking a bit iffy just now - depending how that pans out I may have to consider selling mine (
) so it might be worth sending me a PM when you are ready to buy, or if you want to know a bit more about it.Nice! I do prefer that style of alloy to the five-spoke (which I preferred originally but have changed my mind especially with the dark colours).
Sorry to hear about the job situation, I've been there myself, not nice (and was almost certainly why I ended up selling my 350Z), so hope it works out for you... I shall keep it in mind though.
Sorry to hear about the job situation, I've been there myself, not nice (and was almost certainly why I ended up selling my 350Z), so hope it works out for you... I shall keep it in mind though.
Thanks that's life, sh*t happens!
Not a disaster on the job front as being an old git I am getting a couple of pensions early! But I have a 325ti as a daily and 2 cars in Band K for RFL doesn't seem the best idea I ever had!
I have to have something practical so toying with a 130i or early E9* 330i to replace them both and still have an N52 to listen to - will see how things go.
Not a disaster on the job front as being an old git I am getting a couple of pensions early! But I have a 325ti as a daily and 2 cars in Band K for RFL doesn't seem the best idea I ever had!
I have to have something practical so toying with a 130i or early E9* 330i to replace them both and still have an N52 to listen to - will see how things go.
OK, very un-PH I know, but I've really started to wonder whether I wouldn't mind an Auto one of these 
The purist in me says "TRD get a bloody grip man!!"
However, I have read that the auto is a very good gearbox, and I do spend a lot of time driving in urban environments, and although I do like to hoon, this probably only happens some of the time (like 20% or less).
Apparently in the auto you can stick it in some kind of "manual/sport" mode, and change gear yourself with the stick or paddles and it won't change gear itself unless you are nearing the red-line.
I know it does go against the whole sports car ethos, but given that the Z4 isn't really a raw sports car, more of a GT, I think it could work! What do you guys think? I'd like a test drive really, but its hard enough finding ANY Z4C anywhere near me, let alone a manual and auto to try.
The purist in me says "TRD get a bloody grip man!!"
However, I have read that the auto is a very good gearbox, and I do spend a lot of time driving in urban environments, and although I do like to hoon, this probably only happens some of the time (like 20% or less).
Apparently in the auto you can stick it in some kind of "manual/sport" mode, and change gear yourself with the stick or paddles and it won't change gear itself unless you are nearing the red-line.
I know it does go against the whole sports car ethos, but given that the Z4 isn't really a raw sports car, more of a GT, I think it could work! What do you guys think? I'd like a test drive really, but its hard enough finding ANY Z4C anywhere near me, let alone a manual and auto to try.
TameRacingDriver said:
I know it does go against the whole sports car ethos, but given that the Z4 isn't really a raw sports car, more of a GT, I think it could work! What do you guys think? I'd like a test drive really, but its hard enough finding ANY Z4C anywhere near me, let alone a manual and auto to try.
I think there's a risk of disappointment if you view the Z4C as a GT - it's not refined enough or comfortable enough for the moniker. They're much better viewed as a sports car.Manual all the way.
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