E90 330i Auto v Manual
Discussion
GreenArrow said:
I've got to admit I am veering more to a 330i than a 330d, because my budget will get me an 06-08 reg car, with 60-90K miles and things like DMF, DPF, Swirl Flaps, turbos etc worry me on the diesel model....
Don't think that the 330i will be free from issues if you are considering the N53 engine (typically 57 plate onwards), google n53 engine reliability or n53 injectors. Common problem and £200+ each to replace. The earlier n52 engine on the other hand appears pretty bulletproof. I have been keeping an eye on the market for manual n52 330i for a while now and they don't come up too often, and when they do, dealers are starting to realise that savvy buyers favour them over the n53 and they are holding a premium considering a 2007 model is 8 years old now.GreenArrow said:
Even most of the e46 versions are autos. A far cry from the E36 days when it seemed more cars than not were manuals. Perhaps an indication that the 3 series softened in character over the years?
tbh there were loads of auto E36s sold as well, it's just that they don't have the same enthusiast appeal, they tend to be either kept as one-owner cars or broken for parts. When the cars were new, commuters or people living in cities would have preferred the auto version, once they get to a certain age people buy them as second cars/toys etc and most people want manuals for their 'fun toys'. Also the steptronic box in the E46 is streets ahead of the box in the E36, gained lots of favourable reviews when released and the fact it had M mode allowing more control over the shifts than ever before did it a lot of favours. Read most magazine reviews of the E46 and they all say the auto is the one to go for. GreenArrow said:
Its just seemingly hard to find a manual 330i these days! Even most of the e46 versions are autos. A far cry from the E36 days when it seemed more cars than not were manuals. Perhaps an indication that the 3 series softened in character over the years?
Agree and I regularly look at E46/E90 330i`s for sale and there are a huge amount of autos for sale compared to the manuals, I think you make a valid point about the softening of the 3 series character over the generations.Autos just seem so popular nowadays and maybe some of that is to do with the volume of traffic we have to contend with and how much stop/start traffic there is in towns/cities.
Also if you use the last generation and current generation M3/M4 as an example hardly anyone goes for the manual and pretty much everyone ticks the auto option box and it just seems a sign of the times.
Swervin_Mervin said:
Balls to a diesel. You have the opportunity to get yourself the last great n/a straight sixes that BMW have produced. MPG is not going to be hugely worse - maybe 10mpg I'd guess. It's worth sacrificing that for an engine that's refined and will pull from 2k rpm right through to 7k.
Auto's fine - I do find with my older step auto that the quickest change is if you leave it in sport mode but don't use the manual mode. Manual mode is a bit laggy on the changes. But then knowing that it's better in manual mode if you're on a twisty and hilly road, as you can anticipate the lag - sport mode just hangs on to gears a little too long in those conditions.
The problem is that the N52 doesn't feel like a great engine - it feels weedy, anodyne and gutless. Given that, the D is a much more involving engine with all that torque. Having said that my other car is an S54 engined Z4M so I'm used to that in terms of BMW straight 6 engines. The OP seems to be happy with the idea of a car that isn't that sporty or powerful - and if you were desparate for a fast involving drive you'd never buy a 330 in any case... So why not just get the diesel which is a more interesting engine and much more economical! Auto's fine - I do find with my older step auto that the quickest change is if you leave it in sport mode but don't use the manual mode. Manual mode is a bit laggy on the changes. But then knowing that it's better in manual mode if you're on a twisty and hilly road, as you can anticipate the lag - sport mode just hangs on to gears a little too long in those conditions.
For what it's worth manual 330s do come up. But - having said all of what I said above - you should also consider a 530i if you really want the petrol as they are hardly heavier (35kg) than a 330i and there are a couple of manuals for sale now. I bought one as a winter hack recently and have to say the size is useful compared with a 3 - plus the refinement in terms of seats etc is better.
Billy_Whizzzz said:
Swervin_Mervin said:
Balls to a diesel. You have the opportunity to get yourself the last great n/a straight sixes that BMW have produced. MPG is not going to be hugely worse - maybe 10mpg I'd guess. It's worth sacrificing that for an engine that's refined and will pull from 2k rpm right through to 7k.
Auto's fine - I do find with my older step auto that the quickest change is if you leave it in sport mode but don't use the manual mode. Manual mode is a bit laggy on the changes. But then knowing that it's better in manual mode if you're on a twisty and hilly road, as you can anticipate the lag - sport mode just hangs on to gears a little too long in those conditions.
The problem is that the N52 doesn't feel like a great engine - it feels weedy, anodyne and gutless. Given that, the D is a much more involving engine with all that torque. Having said that my other car is an S54 engined Z4M so I'm used to that in terms of BMW straight 6 engines. The OP seems to be happy with the idea of a car that isn't that sporty or powerful - and if you were desparate for a fast involving drive you'd never buy a 330 in any case... So why not just get the diesel which is a more interesting engine and much more economical! Auto's fine - I do find with my older step auto that the quickest change is if you leave it in sport mode but don't use the manual mode. Manual mode is a bit laggy on the changes. But then knowing that it's better in manual mode if you're on a twisty and hilly road, as you can anticipate the lag - sport mode just hangs on to gears a little too long in those conditions.
Also got the twin turbo 3.0 diesel in a 640d and had the 3.0 turbo diesel in a 330d and they both have oodles of low down torque but no top end so its not an easy one to get right.
So you either go for the gutless low down N/A engines like the N52/S54/S65 and enjoy what they do on the top end or go diesel and enjoy what they do on the bottom end and sacrifice the top end...its a shame you cant have it both ways and maybe the closest thing is a twin turbo petrol engine.
I still don't buy that the N52 is that gutless.
I think the trouble is that these days people overlook driveability. Traditionally more tractable engines have had lower peak torque levels but a better spread of pull throughout the rev range. Instead people seem to want either low down thump (meaning turbo), or headline power figures, which with n/a typically means a higher revving engine often considered to be gutless at lower revs.
N52 for me provides the right balance between torque and power, and consequently pulls from low without any drop off or flat spots. It is perhaps leaning more towards the top-endy nature of modern n/a lumps I guess, but not that strongly. It reminds me of the old XU10J4RS lump that was used in the 306 GTI6/Xsara VTS.
I think the trouble is that these days people overlook driveability. Traditionally more tractable engines have had lower peak torque levels but a better spread of pull throughout the rev range. Instead people seem to want either low down thump (meaning turbo), or headline power figures, which with n/a typically means a higher revving engine often considered to be gutless at lower revs.
N52 for me provides the right balance between torque and power, and consequently pulls from low without any drop off or flat spots. It is perhaps leaning more towards the top-endy nature of modern n/a lumps I guess, but not that strongly. It reminds me of the old XU10J4RS lump that was used in the 306 GTI6/Xsara VTS.
Swervin_Mervin said:
I still don't buy that the N52 is that gutless.
I think the trouble is that these days people overlook driveability. Traditionally more tractable engines have had lower peak torque levels but a better spread of pull throughout the rev range. Instead people seem to want either low down thump (meaning turbo), or headline power figures, which with n/a typically means a higher revving engine often considered to be gutless at lower revs.
N52 for me provides the right balance between torque and power, and consequently pulls from low without any drop off or flat spots. It is perhaps leaning more towards the top-endy nature of modern n/a lumps I guess, but not that strongly. It reminds me of the old XU10J4RS lump that was used in the 306 GTI6/Xsara VTS.
It's far from gutless and a lovely engine. You just have to use the gearbox to keep it on the boil if you want to cover ground quickly. Which is great with the manual box, as it sounds lovely. Mine easily hit it's speed limiter in Germany at an indicated 165mph. I think the trouble is that these days people overlook driveability. Traditionally more tractable engines have had lower peak torque levels but a better spread of pull throughout the rev range. Instead people seem to want either low down thump (meaning turbo), or headline power figures, which with n/a typically means a higher revving engine often considered to be gutless at lower revs.
N52 for me provides the right balance between torque and power, and consequently pulls from low without any drop off or flat spots. It is perhaps leaning more towards the top-endy nature of modern n/a lumps I guess, but not that strongly. It reminds me of the old XU10J4RS lump that was used in the 306 GTI6/Xsara VTS.
It's just that if you are expecting instant thump low down, you might be disappointed. That's what the gearbox is for.
In my experience, the Z4M is in another league for flexibility and low down punch, given the much closer, shorter gearing, lighter weight and a bit more torque. Even on track you can run it down to pretty low revs mid corner and not loose much time. The flexibility and rev range makes it just fantastic through a series of bends. You can easily punt it sideways at low revs, which maybe one reason why there are lots of crashed ones out there.
The only S65 M3 I have driven is a DCT E92, in which the auto box did it's best to disguise the performance in default mode. Not quite as bad as a 991.1S, which changes up like a minicab driver, unless you hit the sport buttons / pedals. The manual M3 is geared quite short.
As ever, it depends on your expectations.
A friend bought a used Xsara VTS a while ago. He didn't realise at the time but it had a set of cams and a tubular manifold on it. It sounded like a touring car and went really well. Great cars.
I'd suggest that if you find the N52 gutless the versio you've been driving is broken, as it is far from it. I moved from an E46 330d (204PS) to a 125i Coupe, and you would have to pay me very good money to go back to the diesel. The 330d wasn't especially interested in accelerating until you had 2k revs on the clock, whereas the 125i will quite happily pull from below that, and keeps going for a good 3000 revs after that.
Noise wise I much prefer it to my old E36 328i and my old man's old M50 engined stuff - the snarl as it goes past 4k rpm is addictive, and one of my favourite noises on the road. That's as standard as well, there's also the BMW Performance stuff you can add to it as well, which makes it sound, frankly, filthy.
Not tired an E90 auto, but my old E46 320d was an Auto (same box I think) - very smooth, held on to revs nicely in Sport mode, I just found it a bit dull. Gona back to manual afterwards with no real regrets - maybe the standard BMW snatchiness from 1st to 2nd could be improved, but otherwise I think the box in the 125i is great.
In fact if you don;t need the space, might be worth investigating the 125i? More manuals about and can be easily remapped up to 130i power.
Noise wise I much prefer it to my old E36 328i and my old man's old M50 engined stuff - the snarl as it goes past 4k rpm is addictive, and one of my favourite noises on the road. That's as standard as well, there's also the BMW Performance stuff you can add to it as well, which makes it sound, frankly, filthy.
Not tired an E90 auto, but my old E46 320d was an Auto (same box I think) - very smooth, held on to revs nicely in Sport mode, I just found it a bit dull. Gona back to manual afterwards with no real regrets - maybe the standard BMW snatchiness from 1st to 2nd could be improved, but otherwise I think the box in the 125i is great.
In fact if you don;t need the space, might be worth investigating the 125i? More manuals about and can be easily remapped up to 130i power.
Swervin_Mervin said:
I still don't buy that the N52 is that gutless.
I think the trouble is that these days people overlook driveability. Traditionally more tractable engines have had lower peak torque levels but a better spread of pull throughout the rev range. Instead people seem to want either low down thump (meaning turbo), or headline power figures, which with n/a typically means a higher revving engine often considered to be gutless at lower revs.
N52 for me provides the right balance between torque and power, and consequently pulls from low without any drop off or flat spots. It is perhaps leaning more towards the top-endy nature of modern n/a lumps I guess, but not that strongly. It reminds me of the old XU10J4RS lump that was used in the 306 GTI6/Xsara VTS.
I agree, the straight six BMW engine is far from gutless, its hardly a top end screamer! Sure it lacks the shove of the diesel, but its quick enough for me and I don't buy that a 330i can't be sporty, whereas presumably a 330d is considered to be. I like the fact that in 3rd gear it does every increment from 30-50 to 70-90 in around 4 seconds flat, give or take a tenth or two, a nice linear power delivery.I think the trouble is that these days people overlook driveability. Traditionally more tractable engines have had lower peak torque levels but a better spread of pull throughout the rev range. Instead people seem to want either low down thump (meaning turbo), or headline power figures, which with n/a typically means a higher revving engine often considered to be gutless at lower revs.
N52 for me provides the right balance between torque and power, and consequently pulls from low without any drop off or flat spots. It is perhaps leaning more towards the top-endy nature of modern n/a lumps I guess, but not that strongly. It reminds me of the old XU10J4RS lump that was used in the 306 GTI6/Xsara VTS.
I got all the road tests of the E90 330i back in the day and it was considered almost a perfect road car, which is what I am after, this being a family car after all! I also remember the EVO road test in 2006, of a 330i sport against an EVO 9 and Vectra VXR where it was far from disgraced or left behind on the road against two much gruntier turbo cars....
I have an e36 m3 and a 2005 330i e90 manual. Both aren't slow cars in any respects. Yes you have to work the gear box to keep it on the boil but that's the point isn't it - to hear that straight six? If you don't want to have to work at driving the car get a turbo diesel or petrol since they do that for you with the added torque. Only thing I can't get on with is the clutch delay valve - going to take it out since it's just makes out I'm crap at driving - I'm no pro but it literally makes is impossible to get the gear change fast and smooth.
GreenArrow said:
I agree, the straight six BMW engine is far from gutless, its hardly a top end screamer!
I would agree with that as well.My Z4C has the same N52 straight 6 and it is just so linear in its delivery - it will potter cleanly when I'm in traffic but get a clear road and stick it in the right gear and it doesn't hang about!
If I was looking for a 330i I would want a manual, if for whatever reason I had to have a 330d I would probably be quite happy with an auto.
Anyway OP I hope you find one you like soon!
bigalx said:
Only thing I can't get on with is the clutch delay valve - going to take it out since it's just makes out I'm crap at driving - I'm no pro but it literally makes is impossible to get the gear change fast and smooth.
I hated the manual gearbox on my Z4M especially 1st to 2nd and they are the two gears I like using the quickest but you just cant because of the CDV, the manual gearbox on my E92 M3 was better...it was still notchy but you could at least do pretty quick 1st to 2nd changes.Using just those two cars as examples you can see why BMW sell far more Autos and DCT nowadays...strangely the manual gearbox in my 520d was lovely and I didn't have any issue with it other than it being mated to a woeful engine.
The old ZF box is utterly dreadful. It has that horrible slushy feeling and lazy changes. If you enjoy driving, I would steer very well clear of it and get a proper box and 3 pedals. The i6 is a lovely engine, and it's borderline criminal to hide it behind a gearbox more suited to a diesel van.
I gave up looking for a E91 330i M-Sport manual and took a punt on an auto. I despised the gearbox and sold the car after 10 months. I didn't even look back at it as I walked away, I hated the thing that much.
The auto works well if you drive the car like you're chauffeuring a timid OAP. The rest of the time I found it frustrating and dim-witted. It got to the point where I would be selecting manual mode at every t-junction so that I could be sure that it would be in an appropriate gear to pull away. If left in auto mode, when rolling up to a roundabout and then deciding to go, sometimes the auto would decide then that it needed to drop to a different gear and there would be no forward acceleration until the gear was selected.
If you've previously driven manuals and prefer them then I'd recommend avoiding the 330i Auto.
The other thing I found annoying was that if I just wanted to roll the car forwards or backwards a foot on the driveway for whatever reason, I had to put the key in the ignition to allow me to select neutral, however the iDrive would then start emitting warning bongs like its life depended on it. After a quietly contented E46 M3 and Z4 M, the bongs of the E91 Auto got very irritating, very quickly.
The auto works well if you drive the car like you're chauffeuring a timid OAP. The rest of the time I found it frustrating and dim-witted. It got to the point where I would be selecting manual mode at every t-junction so that I could be sure that it would be in an appropriate gear to pull away. If left in auto mode, when rolling up to a roundabout and then deciding to go, sometimes the auto would decide then that it needed to drop to a different gear and there would be no forward acceleration until the gear was selected.
If you've previously driven manuals and prefer them then I'd recommend avoiding the 330i Auto.
The other thing I found annoying was that if I just wanted to roll the car forwards or backwards a foot on the driveway for whatever reason, I had to put the key in the ignition to allow me to select neutral, however the iDrive would then start emitting warning bongs like its life depended on it. After a quietly contented E46 M3 and Z4 M, the bongs of the E91 Auto got very irritating, very quickly.
bennyboysvuk said:
If left in auto mode, when rolling up to a roundabout and then deciding to go, sometimes the auto would decide then that it needed to drop to a different gear and there would be no forward acceleration until the gear was selected.
That's a fault, not a general issue with the 'box. Usually requiring a 'box service kit and a software update.Sounds like you had a duffer as it changes quickly enough in Sport mode
ORD said:
The old ZF box is utterly dreadful. It has that horrible slushy feeling and lazy changes. If you enjoy driving, I would steer very well clear of it and get a proper box and 3 pedals. The i6 is a lovely engine, and it's borderline criminal to hide it behind a gearbox more suited to a diesel van.
Exactly. I had this box in a 530 and it was so dim witted it drove me crazy. If you want a 330i, there's simply no point in getting one if you get the auto.Billy_Whizzzz said:
ORD said:
The old ZF box is utterly dreadful. It has that horrible slushy feeling and lazy changes. If you enjoy driving, I would steer very well clear of it and get a proper box and 3 pedals. The i6 is a lovely engine, and it's borderline criminal to hide it behind a gearbox more suited to a diesel van.
Exactly. I had this box in a 530 and it was so dim witted it drove me crazy. If you want a 330i, there's simply no point in getting one if you get the auto.We have already established BMW`s manual with the CDV are a pain in the ass so that could be one reason, the other could be that the 330i was purchased as a cruiser which arguable suits the auto and its not a massively sporting car anyway.
I don't dispute that the engine is a belter and would suit a manual but sales suggest most prefer it with the auto.
cerb4.5lee said:
Whilst I do agree with you both it does make me wonder that if the manual was so great then why did most people spec the auto from new and there are hardly any manuals out there.
We have already established BMW`s manual with the CDV are a pain in the ass so that could be one reason, the other could be that the 330i was purchased as a cruiser which arguable suits the auto and its not a massively sporting car anyway.
I don't dispute that the engine is a belter and would suit a manual but sales suggest most prefer it with the auto.
Because it's that type of car, a junior exec that was the range topper when it was released. We have already established BMW`s manual with the CDV are a pain in the ass so that could be one reason, the other could be that the 330i was purchased as a cruiser which arguable suits the auto and its not a massively sporting car anyway.
I don't dispute that the engine is a belter and would suit a manual but sales suggest most prefer it with the auto.
I've driven many BMWs and enjoyed every manual gearbox. But then I like a precise, mechanical shift that you get with your left wrist right on top of the gearbox. This is the complete opposite to your average FWD box which usually require less effort. The gearchange in my 330i was always a pleasure.
Down to personal preference I guess.
abarber said:
Because it's that type of car, a junior exec that was the range topper when it was released.
I've driven many BMWs and enjoyed every manual gearbox. But then I like a precise, mechanical shift that you get with your left wrist right on top of the gearbox. This is the complete opposite to your average FWD box which usually require less effort. The gearchange in my 330i was always a pleasure.
Down to personal preference I guess.
Yes I get your first point for sure, I have felt a little disappointed with BMW`s manual gearboxes and I like a mechanical shift and loved my TVR`s gearbox as it needed a little heft and it felt rewarding to me.I've driven many BMWs and enjoyed every manual gearbox. But then I like a precise, mechanical shift that you get with your left wrist right on top of the gearbox. This is the complete opposite to your average FWD box which usually require less effort. The gearchange in my 330i was always a pleasure.
Down to personal preference I guess.
The manual gearboxes on my Z4M/M3 just weren't the same and they felt notchy and irritable and especially 1st to 2nd on the zed and that just drove me plain mad!
The manual was always a pleasure in my 520d though so if its the same as the manual 330i then that is great news, I drove a manual E46 330i when they first came out and I don't remember having an issue with that either.
I am not an auto fanboy and I would swap my 330i for a manual version if one came up matching my requirements in terms of spec/colour tomorrow...I have been looking virtually everyday for the last two years of owning mine and it still hasn't come up!
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