E30 M3 standalone upgrade?
Discussion
I'm at a point with my E30 M3 where all I want now is a bit more power and better throttle response, so am looking at replacing my Alpha N set-up with standalone from the likes of DTA-fast. I figured that if I did the ECU swap first, I could then fit lumpier cams, flow the head etc, once I've saved some more cash?
My most immediate problem with the Alpha N is how poor the throttle response can be (especially with heel & toe) and how sensitive it can be to weather and elevation. It can literally feel like a different car sometimes. I have replaced every relevant sensor, wiring etc and it runs a map and chip from a well respected supplier via s14power.net, yet it just doesn't have any immediacy to throttle input.
So, my thinking is that in an effort to get close to a reliable 250 brake I will replace the cams, have the head flowed, run bigger injectors and install DTA or similar and do this over the coming winter.
Currently I run a stock 2.3 with carbon air box and Alpha N as previously mentioned. Power is circa 210 - 215 brake. I guess I just wanted to get some opinions regarding my proposed next move, or is there a better option for similar budget?
My most immediate problem with the Alpha N is how poor the throttle response can be (especially with heel & toe) and how sensitive it can be to weather and elevation. It can literally feel like a different car sometimes. I have replaced every relevant sensor, wiring etc and it runs a map and chip from a well respected supplier via s14power.net, yet it just doesn't have any immediacy to throttle input.
So, my thinking is that in an effort to get close to a reliable 250 brake I will replace the cams, have the head flowed, run bigger injectors and install DTA or similar and do this over the coming winter.
Currently I run a stock 2.3 with carbon air box and Alpha N as previously mentioned. Power is circa 210 - 215 brake. I guess I just wanted to get some opinions regarding my proposed next move, or is there a better option for similar budget?
Mark,
I'm running standalone Motec M800 and I'm not really a big fan of the Maxx A/N piggy back system as it still relies on the old Bosch Motronic 1.0. The compensation tables on Motronic are coarse and although there is a baro sensor it corrects in steps and is quite coarse. You are also fixed to a pre-defined ignition map.
Load Sensing
With any engine management that only uses throttle position (Alpha) and engine speed (N) you will never be 100% accurate in calibration because the ECU is not measuring the mass of air entering the engine, the ECU is making an assumption based on the original mapping conditions. The ECU doesn't know if the air filter is a little more restrictive due to contamination or the exhaust is not working as well as it did when it was mapped. What helps is having good compensation tables, which can account for some of the variables.
Engine coolant temp (ECT) is a given for cold start.
Intake air temp (IAT) is a given for allowing for air density changes related to temp.
Barometric pressure for air density in relation to pressure. Or
Manifold Air Pressure (MAP) for air density in relation to pressure in the intake.
You can go further;
Exhaust Manifold Pressure (EMAP) for the effect of air pressure has on the exhaust to flow.
Fuel pressure-to compensate for variations in pressure during transient situations
Fuel Temp- to allow for density changes in fuel.
All this should be backed up with closed loop lambda control, so the ECU can correct for errors which have made it through the above compensations.
Why not just measure the mass of air?
We can use MAP only or Mass air flow sensor.
MAP doesn't work too well on the S14 as getting a good connection to the manifold vacuum is difficult due to the ITBs. You can link it them together but if you log at a high enough frequency (I have) you still see each cylinder intake pulses at low rpm and the ECU can't accurately determine what the MAP really is. Some ECUs will do synchronous MAP sensing where the ECU only reads MAP for a predefined window during the engine cycle to negate this, or there may be a sensor which does this.
Mass air flow sensors don't work too well either on engines with ITBs. The pulses generated by the induction event for each cylinder disrupt the flow over the hot wire element causing inaccuracies.
So we are left with A/N really.
Fuelling
You can keep the batch fire injection (all injectors fire at the same time)-Simpler, or you can go sequential, where each injector fires in time with each cylinder at a time determined during mapping. Sequential has the potential for better idle and low speed running, better response and better economy all due to the ability to ideally time the injection event for each cylinder. This requires the installation of a cam sensor, so the ECU knows at what point of the cycle the engine is. More work, but easy enough.
Ignition
You can keep the stock ignition of coil, dizzy and leads. Simple and cheap, but potentially less reliable due to dizzy/rotor/plug lead wear/issues.
Use a four post wasted spark coil-removes the dizzy/rotor potential issues, but still keeps the plug leads.
Use Coil on Plug (COP) where you have what it says, one coil per cylinder. Neater (IMO), removes the potential failure points. More work though, and requires a cam sensor to operate.
I use A/N with MAP compensation (ECT and IAT also) with sequential injection and COP and I find throttle response fine.
With any Stand Alone ECU you will need to add a crank trigger (toothed wheel and sensor) as the S14 has an unusual crank trigger set up (114 ring gear teeth for speed and a separate one tooth cylinder ID running off two separate sensors) which almost all ECUs don't cater for.
WRT ECU choices, decide what you want to do from the above and narrow down the choices. From the ECUs you have which are capable, choose the one which you feel/know you can get the best support for locally. No good having all singing and dancing ECU, but need to travel 3hrs to get support. Likewise, no point choosing the cheapest and then spending loads on dyno time because the local mapper can't tune it.
I'm running standalone Motec M800 and I'm not really a big fan of the Maxx A/N piggy back system as it still relies on the old Bosch Motronic 1.0. The compensation tables on Motronic are coarse and although there is a baro sensor it corrects in steps and is quite coarse. You are also fixed to a pre-defined ignition map.
Load Sensing
With any engine management that only uses throttle position (Alpha) and engine speed (N) you will never be 100% accurate in calibration because the ECU is not measuring the mass of air entering the engine, the ECU is making an assumption based on the original mapping conditions. The ECU doesn't know if the air filter is a little more restrictive due to contamination or the exhaust is not working as well as it did when it was mapped. What helps is having good compensation tables, which can account for some of the variables.
Engine coolant temp (ECT) is a given for cold start.
Intake air temp (IAT) is a given for allowing for air density changes related to temp.
Barometric pressure for air density in relation to pressure. Or
Manifold Air Pressure (MAP) for air density in relation to pressure in the intake.
You can go further;
Exhaust Manifold Pressure (EMAP) for the effect of air pressure has on the exhaust to flow.
Fuel pressure-to compensate for variations in pressure during transient situations
Fuel Temp- to allow for density changes in fuel.
All this should be backed up with closed loop lambda control, so the ECU can correct for errors which have made it through the above compensations.
Why not just measure the mass of air?
We can use MAP only or Mass air flow sensor.
MAP doesn't work too well on the S14 as getting a good connection to the manifold vacuum is difficult due to the ITBs. You can link it them together but if you log at a high enough frequency (I have) you still see each cylinder intake pulses at low rpm and the ECU can't accurately determine what the MAP really is. Some ECUs will do synchronous MAP sensing where the ECU only reads MAP for a predefined window during the engine cycle to negate this, or there may be a sensor which does this.
Mass air flow sensors don't work too well either on engines with ITBs. The pulses generated by the induction event for each cylinder disrupt the flow over the hot wire element causing inaccuracies.
So we are left with A/N really.
Fuelling
You can keep the batch fire injection (all injectors fire at the same time)-Simpler, or you can go sequential, where each injector fires in time with each cylinder at a time determined during mapping. Sequential has the potential for better idle and low speed running, better response and better economy all due to the ability to ideally time the injection event for each cylinder. This requires the installation of a cam sensor, so the ECU knows at what point of the cycle the engine is. More work, but easy enough.
Ignition
You can keep the stock ignition of coil, dizzy and leads. Simple and cheap, but potentially less reliable due to dizzy/rotor/plug lead wear/issues.
Use a four post wasted spark coil-removes the dizzy/rotor potential issues, but still keeps the plug leads.
Use Coil on Plug (COP) where you have what it says, one coil per cylinder. Neater (IMO), removes the potential failure points. More work though, and requires a cam sensor to operate.
I use A/N with MAP compensation (ECT and IAT also) with sequential injection and COP and I find throttle response fine.
With any Stand Alone ECU you will need to add a crank trigger (toothed wheel and sensor) as the S14 has an unusual crank trigger set up (114 ring gear teeth for speed and a separate one tooth cylinder ID running off two separate sensors) which almost all ECUs don't cater for.
WRT ECU choices, decide what you want to do from the above and narrow down the choices. From the ECUs you have which are capable, choose the one which you feel/know you can get the best support for locally. No good having all singing and dancing ECU, but need to travel 3hrs to get support. Likewise, no point choosing the cheapest and then spending loads on dyno time because the local mapper can't tune it.
Thanks for the reply. If honest I had to go through it a couple of times to really get a handle on what you're saying. I'm learning as I go.
I've been looking at running something along the lines of DTA S40 Pro as the chap who looks after my car uses DTA himself.
http://www.simtekuk.co.uk/product.php/dta_s40_pro/...
I've had a look around and there appears to be a few E30 M3 running them.
I've been looking at running something along the lines of DTA S40 Pro as the chap who looks after my car uses DTA himself.
http://www.simtekuk.co.uk/product.php/dta_s40_pro/...
I've had a look around and there appears to be a few E30 M3 running them.
Car looks fantastic Mark.... Who looks after your car and who will map it?
I don't have a lot to add to the excellent post from Steve except to say that the problems you have are really down to the current map and the limitations of what can be done with the existing setup as discussed. That said even with a proper ECU setup it is as Steve said only as good as the guy who maps it and imho there are few people who can really get these cars right.
I don't have a lot to add to the excellent post from Steve except to say that the problems you have are really down to the current map and the limitations of what can be done with the existing setup as discussed. That said even with a proper ECU setup it is as Steve said only as good as the guy who maps it and imho there are few people who can really get these cars right.
Just got in from having mine mapped Mark.
Similar spec to where you intend going but still running A-N. I have to say as good as standalone can be, there is nothing wrong with the A-N IF it is mapped correctly with a custom chip. I had been running around on closed loop with one of John's (s14power) maps/chips installed and the difference to how it is now is quite frankly unbelievable.
There is certainly no lack of throttle response.
I know you are in Cornwall which means traveling a long way to anywhere but it is well worth the effort.
I use Wayne Schofield (Chip Wizards) in Warrington and you only have to talk to the guy and see the cars he is working on to realize he is incredibly knowledgable and superb at what he does. Have heard good things about Paul Shepherd also who is a bit closer to you near Castle Coombe.
Jim.
To add. Car felt exactly as you describe yours beforehand. Flat spots all over the place down low, no urgency etc. drove fine one day then different on another. Wayne actually started to try and map using the s14power chip but the car kept going lean for no reason so he started from scratch.
My plot:
Similar spec to where you intend going but still running A-N. I have to say as good as standalone can be, there is nothing wrong with the A-N IF it is mapped correctly with a custom chip. I had been running around on closed loop with one of John's (s14power) maps/chips installed and the difference to how it is now is quite frankly unbelievable.
There is certainly no lack of throttle response.
I know you are in Cornwall which means traveling a long way to anywhere but it is well worth the effort.
I use Wayne Schofield (Chip Wizards) in Warrington and you only have to talk to the guy and see the cars he is working on to realize he is incredibly knowledgable and superb at what he does. Have heard good things about Paul Shepherd also who is a bit closer to you near Castle Coombe.
Jim.
To add. Car felt exactly as you describe yours beforehand. Flat spots all over the place down low, no urgency etc. drove fine one day then different on another. Wayne actually started to try and map using the s14power chip but the car kept going lean for no reason so he started from scratch.
My plot:
Edited by Jim M3 on Thursday 11th August 11:53
Edited by Jim M3 on Thursday 11th August 11:56
Edited by Jim M3 on Thursday 11th August 11:59
houlbt said:
Car looks fantastic Mark.... Who looks after your car and who will map it?
I don't have a lot to add to the excellent post from Steve except to say that the problems you have are really down to the current map and the limitations of what can be done with the existing setup as discussed. That said even with a proper ECU setup it is as Steve said only as good as the guy who maps it and imho there are few people who can really get these cars right.
Hi, Joe @ ARM BMW & Motorsport look after my cars and can't recommend him highly enough. That said, I know there's a knack to mapping s14's on AN his mapping will obviously be limited by the chip. I don't have a lot to add to the excellent post from Steve except to say that the problems you have are really down to the current map and the limitations of what can be done with the existing setup as discussed. That said even with a proper ECU setup it is as Steve said only as good as the guy who maps it and imho there are few people who can really get these cars right.
Jim M3 said:
Just got in from having mine mapped Mark.
Similar spec to where you intend going but still running A-N. I have to say as good as standalone can be, there is nothing wrong with the A-N IF it is mapped correctly with a custom chip. I had been running around on closed loop with one of John's (s14power) maps/chips installed and the difference to how it is now is quite frankly unbelievable.
There is certainly no lack of throttle response.
I know you are in Cornwall which means traveling a long way to anywhere but it is well worth the effort.
I use Wayne Schofield (Chip Wizards) in Warrington and you only have to talk to the guy and see the cars he is working on to realize he is incredibly knowledgable and superb at what he does. Have heard good things about Paul Shepherd also who is a bit closer to you near Castle Coombe.
Jim.
To add. Car felt exactly as you describe yours beforehand. Flat spots all over the place down low, no urgency etc. drove fine one day then different on another. Wayne actually started to try and map using the s14power chip but the car kept going lean for no reason so he started from scratch.
My plot:
Thanks for taking the time to post those Jim. I've also heard a lot of positive stuff about Wayne and have had many an email with Paul, but as I am sure you know, both are in demand and very busy. I've just messaged Paul though and will email Wayne this afternoon, to see if either will take a look at my car before I spend out on standalone. I know Paul asked me previously why I was thinking of removing AN as he was confident it just needed setting up correctly.Similar spec to where you intend going but still running A-N. I have to say as good as standalone can be, there is nothing wrong with the A-N IF it is mapped correctly with a custom chip. I had been running around on closed loop with one of John's (s14power) maps/chips installed and the difference to how it is now is quite frankly unbelievable.
There is certainly no lack of throttle response.
I know you are in Cornwall which means traveling a long way to anywhere but it is well worth the effort.
I use Wayne Schofield (Chip Wizards) in Warrington and you only have to talk to the guy and see the cars he is working on to realize he is incredibly knowledgable and superb at what he does. Have heard good things about Paul Shepherd also who is a bit closer to you near Castle Coombe.
Jim.
To add. Car felt exactly as you describe yours beforehand. Flat spots all over the place down low, no urgency etc. drove fine one day then different on another. Wayne actually started to try and map using the s14power chip but the car kept going lean for no reason so he started from scratch.
My plot:
Edited by Jim M3 on Thursday 11th August 11:53
Edited by Jim M3 on Thursday 11th August 11:56
Edited by Jim M3 on Thursday 11th August 11:59
Can I ask what you've done to your engine? Those are some pretty impressive figures! I know people often talk about s14's with 300+ brake but they seldom seem to have the dyno sheets to prove it.
Jim M3 said:
Just got in from having mine mapped Mark.
Similar spec to where you intend going but still running A-N. I have to say as good as standalone can be, there is nothing wrong with the A-N IF it is mapped correctly with a custom chip. I had been running around on closed loop with one of John's (s14power) maps/chips installed and the difference to how it is now is quite frankly unbelievable.
There is certainly no lack of throttle response.
I know you are in Cornwall which means traveling a long way to anywhere but it is well worth the effort.
I use Wayne Schofield (Chip Wizards) in Warrington and you only have to talk to the guy and see the cars he is working on to realize he is incredibly knowledgable and superb at what he does. Have heard good things about Paul Shepherd also who is a bit closer to you near Castle Coombe.
Jim.
To add. Car felt exactly as you describe yours beforehand. Flat spots all over the place down low, no urgency etc. drove fine one day then different on another. Wayne actually started to try and map using the s14power chip but the car kept going lean for no reason so he started from scratch.
My plot:
What is the spec for your engine?Similar spec to where you intend going but still running A-N. I have to say as good as standalone can be, there is nothing wrong with the A-N IF it is mapped correctly with a custom chip. I had been running around on closed loop with one of John's (s14power) maps/chips installed and the difference to how it is now is quite frankly unbelievable.
There is certainly no lack of throttle response.
I know you are in Cornwall which means traveling a long way to anywhere but it is well worth the effort.
I use Wayne Schofield (Chip Wizards) in Warrington and you only have to talk to the guy and see the cars he is working on to realize he is incredibly knowledgable and superb at what he does. Have heard good things about Paul Shepherd also who is a bit closer to you near Castle Coombe.
Jim.
To add. Car felt exactly as you describe yours beforehand. Flat spots all over the place down low, no urgency etc. drove fine one day then different on another. Wayne actually started to try and map using the s14power chip but the car kept going lean for no reason so he started from scratch.
My plot:
Edited by Jim M3 on Thursday 11th August 11:53
Edited by Jim M3 on Thursday 11th August 11:56
Edited by Jim M3 on Thursday 11th August 11:59
The shape of the power curve looks very similar to mine.
Well a weep of oil from the head gasket has brought about a change in plan. I figured that if the head is coming off anyway, I may as well fit new cams and have some mild flowing done, along with new tensioner, ARP studs etc. I just need to keep a reign on things as I know how expensive it can be to rebuild an s14! I'll most likely take the engine out next month and rebuild it over the coming autumn/winter.
Mark,
Before you commit to cams, be sure to check your head has not been skimmed. Valve to piston clearances are tight on the exhaust side and a skimmed head doesn't help. As it is, if you can get a something like a Schrick 276 timed to Schrick spec on the exhaust side you are either very lucky or have very tight valve to piston clearances.
If you have a later 215ps engine, you can put the 264 intake cam on the exhaust and use either a Schrick 276/284 on the inlet side.
If your engine is a 215ps variant, then you already have the larger 28mm intake ports as opposed to 26mm for the 195ps engines and 48mm throttles as opposed to 46mm.
If you take 26mm ports out to 28mm, then you need to also open out the throttle body isolators and throttle bodies to match, likewise if you open up the 28mm ports.
Ensure whoever does your ports have a good reputation in the BMW S14 field. You can't put metal back on once it is removed.
There are places on the continent who can CNC the ports to various BMW Motorsport specs, 29.5, 30.5 31.8mm.
Before you commit to cams, be sure to check your head has not been skimmed. Valve to piston clearances are tight on the exhaust side and a skimmed head doesn't help. As it is, if you can get a something like a Schrick 276 timed to Schrick spec on the exhaust side you are either very lucky or have very tight valve to piston clearances.
If you have a later 215ps engine, you can put the 264 intake cam on the exhaust and use either a Schrick 276/284 on the inlet side.
If your engine is a 215ps variant, then you already have the larger 28mm intake ports as opposed to 26mm for the 195ps engines and 48mm throttles as opposed to 46mm.
If you take 26mm ports out to 28mm, then you need to also open out the throttle body isolators and throttle bodies to match, likewise if you open up the 28mm ports.
Ensure whoever does your ports have a good reputation in the BMW S14 field. You can't put metal back on once it is removed.
There are places on the continent who can CNC the ports to various BMW Motorsport specs, 29.5, 30.5 31.8mm.
It all depends on how much lift you can use at TDC, generally it is the exhaust valves which have issues.
Schrick timed at recommended 106deg peak lift
276-3.2mm
284-3.5mm
Both of which you can run with stock valvetrain (use evo springs though)
So I would suggest that any more than 3.2mm at TDC on the exhaust side would be pushing it.
Cat cams
1300657
278in/275ex timed at recommended 108deg
2.70mm/2.45mm
1300658
279in/278ex timed at recommended 108deg
3.05mm/2.6mm
Both can use stock valvetrain
1300659
285in/279ex timed at recommended 106deg
3.85mm/3.30mm
But needs different valve train.
The think is you can use many cams, but if you can't time them to optimum, there is little point.
Moufang is a good reputable company, that's where my head was ported.
Schrick timed at recommended 106deg peak lift
276-3.2mm
284-3.5mm
Both of which you can run with stock valvetrain (use evo springs though)
So I would suggest that any more than 3.2mm at TDC on the exhaust side would be pushing it.
Cat cams
1300657
278in/275ex timed at recommended 108deg
2.70mm/2.45mm
1300658
279in/278ex timed at recommended 108deg
3.05mm/2.6mm
Both can use stock valvetrain
1300659
285in/279ex timed at recommended 106deg
3.85mm/3.30mm
But needs different valve train.
The think is you can use many cams, but if you can't time them to optimum, there is little point.
Moufang is a good reputable company, that's where my head was ported.
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