M235i LSD question

[Joratk]

How do you tell which M235i's have the optional M Performance LSD in them? I find dealers don't list them separately in their ad so I never know if it has one or not.
Do all cars with the M Performance pack have an LSD?
Can cars without the M Performance pack still have an LSD?
Would the Quaife LSD be better than the M Performance one? So maybe I should purchase a car without the LSD and just fit a Quaife one?

Any answers are much appreciated!

[Cw4578]

I think the reason that you haven't seen many, is because they are very rare. Not many cars have them fitted.

[LocoBlade]

I think it's safe to say less than 1 in 100 will have one fitted so just assume it hasn't.

It's a £2500 dealer fit option that's completely independent of any other option selected, but even if a car with one fitted did get traded in it probably wouldn't show up on the system the dealers use to confirm the spec for adverts etc as that will only list the factory options. If you owned a car with one and had any sense though you'd swap it out before you traded it in and sell it seperately. About the only way you might find one mentioned is if a dealer specced up a demonstrator with the entire M Performance catalogue fitted but if that was the case you can bet they'd be asking a hefty premium for it.

Edited by LocoBlade on Friday 9th December 20:35

[CarsOrBikes]

I thought all the M235/240's had it haha, just the '1' that was an option fit at £2.4k, oh well

[cerb4.5lee]

CarsOrBikes said:

I thought all the M235/240's had it haha, just the '1' that was an option fit at £2.4k, oh well

I've thought for a long time that all performance beemers should have one as standard, like they used to.

[Smuler]

Would a LSD alone be enough?
I've gone from 335i to M3 and there is a massive difference in driving experience when driving fast over the twisty B roads and the like.
I think the E36 was last to be built with LSD. I've not driven one, but I can imagine my old E46 which has decent steering feel being enhanced with one alone. But even with the E92 generation which has more feel than the current crop, it always seemed to be recommended that it was a whole suspension change too and even then a gulf with a M3.

I would think for the OP a company which offers a full overhaul would be a better option than handing 2500 to BMW.

If the earlier poster who said not many are fitted was right (I suspect he is) then most either don't care and/ or the select few go fully modified.

I did consider Birds package for my 335i but they wouldn't let me drive the demo, just ride as passenger. So I said stuff that!

[Cw4578]

I think the reality is that "most" people who have these cars use them as daily drivers when they perhaps would not notice an LSD or not. Try baby BMW forum for more specific advice.

[4rephill]

Cw4578 said:

I think the reality is that "most" people who have these cars use them as daily drivers when they perhaps would not notice an LSD or not. Try baby BMW forum for more specific advice.

+1

I'd say the percentage of drivers who couldn't even tell if their car had an LSD or not would be in the high 90's.

(And the percentage of owners who didn't have a clue what an LSD is or does, would be up there too!).

A lot of drivers who own BMW's now have never driven a car with an LSD fitted in their lifetime, and have grown up with cars fitted with the replacement traction control systems instead, relying on the systems to keep them out of trouble.

Give them a car with an LSD and the traction control switched off, and they'd probably declare the car to be dangerous when driven at speed due to their reliance on driver aids to keep them safe!

(NOTE: That's not all BMW drivers, before someone starts arguing the point - But again, I'd bet the percentage would be pretty high!)

I suspect that the button that turns off the traction control systems is probably the least used button in the whole car these days when it comes to BMW's!

[aeropilot]

Joratk said:

How do you tell which M235i's have the optional M Performance LSD in them?

An invoice in the paperwork from a BMW dealer showing one has been fitted.

Joratk said:

Do all cars with the M Performance pack have an LSD?

No.

Joratk said:

Can cars without the M Performance pack still have an LSD?

Yes

Joratk said:

Would the Quaife LSD be better than the M Performance one? So maybe I should purchase a car without the LSD and just fit a Quaife one?

Very little price difference between the BMWP LSD and a Quaife from Birds, and the BMW one is a new complete unit from the factory, so you retain the original, which means you could swap back again and sell on the BMW one when getting rid of the car later to get a few quid back.
And its covered by the BMW warranty.
BMW unit is a conventional clutch pack LSD made for BMW by Drexler, compared to the gear-type unit of the Quaife.

[Gruber]

Smuler said:

Would a LSD alone be enough?
I've gone from 335i to M3 and there is a massive difference in driving experience when driving fast over the twisty B roads and the like.
I think the E36 was last to be built with LSD. I've not driven one, but I can imagine my old E46 which has decent steering feel being enhanced with one alone. But even with the E92 generation which has more feel than the current crop, it always seemed to be recommended that it was a whole suspension change too and even then a gulf with a M3.

I would think for the OP a company which offers a full overhaul would be a better option than handing 2500 to BMW.

If the earlier poster who said not many are fitted was right (I suspect he is) then most either don't care and/ or the select few go fully modified.

I did consider Birds package for my 335i but they wouldn't let me drive the demo, just ride as passenger. So I said stuff that!

I think this is a point well made,

My little 130i had a Quaife LSD fitted, but (to answer your opening question) in all honesty, it wasn't really enough. It really needed a completely different suspension set up to help it get the power down and to ride and corner to its potential. If anything, the Quaife occasionally just seemed to highlight the standard set-up's propensity for understeer. I've never tried one with the Birds suspension set up, but I read it is nigh-on revolutionary.

This is the point so often ignored by the "my [xyz] is as quick as an M3 so why pay the extra" brigade, IMHO.

[bennyboysvuk]

cerb4.5lee said:

I've thought for a long time that all performance beemers should have one as standard, like they used to.

Amen to that! I had E30 325, E36 328 Sport, E36 M3, E46 M3 and Z4 M Roadster all with LSDs. The first BMW I had that didn't, a 120D, spun the inside rear wheel up terribly, as did the 330i as does my M135i.

Is it enough on its own? Not really. Without the LSD, BMW put thinner ARBs on so that the chassis rolls more at mid-corner in order to keep the inside rear wheel on the ground to try to lessen the wheelspin. I think if you're a really keen driver then it's either choose an M-car or go to another manufacturer entirely or indeed, throw a huge amount of money at a complete suspension package.

[aeropilot]

bennyboysvuk said:

Is it enough on its own? Not really. Without the LSD, BMW put thinner ARBs on so that the chassis rolls more at mid-corner in order to keep the inside rear wheel on the ground to try to lessen the wheelspin. I think if you're a really keen driver then it's either choose an M-car or go to another manufacturer entirely or indeed, throw a huge amount of money at a complete suspension package.

^This.

[4rephill]

bennyboysvuk said:

.... Without the LSD, BMW put thinner ARBs on so that the chassis rolls more at mid-corner in order to keep the inside rear wheel on the ground to try to lessen the wheelspin.....

Can you post the road tests that complain of the addition body roll in BMW's as it's not a complaint I've ever heard about them before.

It would also seem to be a bit strange for BMW to engineer their cars to have more body roll to reduce wheel lift, and then spend millions developing Dynamic Drive ( http://www.bmw.com/com/en/insights/technology/tech... ), and Adaptive Drive ( http://www.bmw.com/com/en/insights/technology/tech... ), to counteract the body roll that you say they have deliberately engineered into the car!

My understanding was, to prevent wheel spin, BMW engineered various traction control systems to lightly brake spinning wheels and reduce engine power if required, such as the original ASC+T, DSC, DTC etc, etc.

They're not as much fun as an LSD, but as I've already posted, the vast majority of BMW owners today would have a clue what an LSD does anyway.

[bennyboysvuk]

If you go to RealOem, you'll find that all of the ARBs are thinner on the comparative non-LSD equipped models. You'll also notice that front to rear, the rear LSD is a good bit thinner than the front ARB on the non-LSD cars too (obviously to make it more understeery too), but the effect is more rear roll.

Birds also suggest this too in their literature.

It's also noticeable when driving the cars themselves.

[VerySideways]

Do you really need an LSD on your M235i?
Is this for road use or track use?
Is the power output standard?

I've run several high performance cars for work over the last few years, and (as an example) when the LSD was failing in the E46 M3 it was really obvious as traction out of tight corners was non-existent. It would sit there and spin up the inside wheel and not really go anywhere.

Since then a variety of cars have come and gone, and i now use an M235i for work (2 actually!).
I can't say the M235i feels like it would massively benefit from having an LSD for road use on the standard suspension with standard power output. I always turn the traction control fully off, and i very rarely find the car lacking in traction from tight, low speed corners (unless the Michelins are stone cold).

If you're struggling for grip at the moment then i'd suggest that's because it's really cold, wet and slippery out there. Just temper your enthusiasm with your right foot until the weather perks up a bit

[nickfrog]

I ran a M135i which is far from a track car - it will happily go round Spa in 3.05 min out of the box in the dry on humble SS though. It will be (slightly) traction limited in second out of the Bus Stop and to a lesser extent out of the hairpin (which is probably as quick in 3rd for that reason). It did get its traction through a soft set up which does affect feel and changes of direction. It would have been a different story in the wet for sure ! But it's still a very tractable car and a very very good package. For me the LSD is too much money in relation to the value of the car and the intended use.

[Flatlander]

The Mx35i is compromised by BMW to avoid fitting a LSD. Why else does a car with virtually 50/50 weight distribution have rear spring rates 50% stiffer than the front?

The standard car does have amazing traction with the standard suspension however I have an M235i with Birds full handling package, Eibach springs, Bilstein dampers, H&R ARBs (all specially designed for the car) and a Quaife LSD.

The car was transformed - much better steering and turn in, all the high speed floatiness gone, incredibly more compliant ride and fantastic traction out of corners. I subsequently had the car remapped to 400bhp/600Nm and it definitely requires the LSD.

The Quaife diff doesn't suffer from the clutch wear that affects the BMW unit.

My car is currently for sale - I can send the spec to anyone interested but time is short as my new car arrives next Monday.

[nickfrog]

Flatlander said:

The Mx35i is compromised by BMW to avoid fitting a LSD. Why else does a car with virtually 50/50 weight distribution have rear spring rates 50% stiffer than the front?

The standard car does have amazing traction with the standard suspension however I have an M235i with Birds full handling package, Eibach springs, Bilstein dampers, H&R ARBs (all specially designed for the car) and a Quaife LSD.

The car was transformed - much better steering and turn in, all the high speed floatiness gone, incredibly more compliant ride and fantastic traction out of corners. I subsequently had the car remapped to 400bhp/600Nm and it definitely requires the LSD.

The Quaife diff doesn't suffer from the clutch wear that affects the BMW unit.

My car is currently for sale - I can send the spec to anyone interested but time is short as my new car arrives next Monday.

Sounds brilliant !! Why sell ? Did you also fit the M4 LCAs for 2deg of camber ?

[bennyboysvuk]

VerySideways said:

If you're struggling for grip at the moment then i'd suggest that's because it's really cold, wet and slippery out there. Just temper your enthusiasm with your right foot until the weather perks up a bit

My car is primarily for winter driving and nursery runs and I used to enjoy LSDs on all my old cars. "The electronic ADB system is brilliant" they said. They were so wrong.

I don't mind a bit of wheelspin, but it's when just one wheel spins so much that not only is it no fun, but it's slow too. Exiting T-junctions, it reminds me of my 1990 Cavalier SRi.

PS Your username and your comment don't really gel.

[VerySideways]

bennyboysvuk said:

My car is primarily for winter driving and nursery runs and I used to enjoy LSDs on all my old cars. "The electronic ADB system is brilliant" they said. They were so wrong.

I don't mind a bit of wheelspin, but it's when just one wheel spins so much that not only is it no fun, but it's slow too. Exiting T-junctions, it reminds me of my 1990 Cavalier SRi.

PS Your username and your comment don't really gel.

The M235i does drift surprisingly well with an open diff with provocation, but given your use (presume you spend the summer months on two wheels?) i can see why you'd be frustrated with it.
And i agree, the electronic ABD is less than helpful and does not replicate an LSD at all, hence i turn traction fully off and go from there.
Yup, that much wheelspin (or the traction control pulling power) can be dangerous when you're going for a gap in traffic. Sounds like you do need that LSD