BMW E92 330i N53 warm engine whine

[bmwmike]

koanla said:

Sorry, but didn't take a look back since my last post. Unfortunately it did not solve my issue. Later on I exchanged all the sealings, o-rings, gaskets on the intake manifold plus the ventilation hose between the rocker cover and intake manifold:
https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/showparts?id=NV31...
Items 04, 07, 10, 12, 13 (if someone does the same the item 07 is not required since the cavity is separated from the inside of the intake manifold)
And just to be able to remove the intake manifold I had also to exchange two more gaskets around the EGR valve and hosing:
https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/showparts?id=NV31...
item 02 and one piece from item 06 behind the engine where the pipe 04 connected to pipe 05.

Smoke tester is something I still chasing. Partially it is set but stuck finding the right material to be burnt to create the appropriate smoke. On the other hand the areas around the rocker cover, CCVV, intake manifold, EGR, etc. were blown around by brake cleaner a bit but it was not affecting the rpm of the engine at all (enginge was on and idling). So either the material couldn't get close to the leakage or my issue is not based on vacuum leak.

As for alu cap and diaphragm I ordered these ones, tho:
Cap: https://vanos-bmw.com/product/cup-for-membrane-pcv...

Diaphragm: https://vanos-bmw.com/product/11127552281-bmw-valv...
Please beware that these are for the N51, N52 and N53 enginges so if your one differs then locate yours accordingly, please.

Btw, mine one was already exchanged so any of the former owners had been trying it at an earlier point of time. Somehow they managed the original plastic cap glued back and my diaphragm seemed to be not torn. I anyway exchanged but in my case something else is broken.

Edited by koanla on Monday 21st December 15:07

Ok so i went ahead and did my CCv diaphragm and cap and it took me 3 times to get it right.

Firstly, for smoke, baby oil and a cotton rag will produce plenty.

Second. The whine. Ive had my n53 since 33k miles and there had always been a wierd humming/whine in the background when running. If i put my finger over the ccv vent it would stop. That was since 33k miles. Since ive changed the diaphragm and cap the engine has not run or sounded better. Second time i reset the diaphragm the noise was there. It is not caused by a tear in the diaphragm but the plunget not fully seating right! mine had been like it since 33k, maybe since factory.

Maybe is your issue too? I figured it out by pushing air into the CCV vent whiles the noise was happening, and it stops. Why? because the plunger seats fully on the vacuum hole.

if u look at the old ccv diaphragm plunger you will see the witness marks of the cam cover circle are offset on the plunger. Vacuum not 100% sealed causes a hum.


In the end i cut the spring down and also reshaped it to guide the plunger. Noise is now very quiet, barely noticeable. Still there though, but 95% better.


tldr does noise stop when blowing into your ccv thru a pipe?

Edited by bmwmike on Monday 21st December 19:44

[koanla]

bmwmike said:

Ok so i went ahead and did my CCv diaphragm and cap and it took me 3 times to get it right.

Firstly, for smoke, baby oil and a cotton rag will produce plenty.

Second. The whine. Ive had my n53 since 33k miles and there had always been a wierd humming/whine in the background when running. If i put my finger over the ccv vent it would stop. That was since 33k miles. Since ive changed the diaphragm and cap the engine has not run or sounded better. Second time i reset the diaphragm the noise was there. It is not caused by a tear in the diaphragm but the plunget not fully seating right! mine had been like it since 33k, maybe since factory.

Maybe is your issue too? I figured it out by pushing air into the CCV vent whiles the noise was happening, and it stops. Why? because the plunger seats fully on the vacuum hole.

if u look at the old ccv diaphragm plunger you will see the witness marks of the cam cover circle are offset on the plunger. Vacuum not 100% sealed causes a hum.


In the end i cut the spring down and also reshaped it to guide the plunger. Noise is now very quiet, barely noticeable. Still there though, but 95% better.


tldr does noise stop when blowing into your ccv thru a pipe?

Edited by bmwmike on Monday 21st December 19:44

Well this is more complicated than only whining. Let me first list up the sympthomps:
- oil consumption is about a litre per 2500-4000km (about 1500-2500 miles)
- shivering engine - it's the worst at cold engine and at idling and as it gets warm shivering decreasing. In last summer it was tend to go away at warm engine but as autumn came it gets worse and worse
- whining (let me come to this in more details later)
- very bad throttle reaction (power comes only at or near to full throttle so not possible to dose the throttle). It is valid especially in cold but will never go away even if the engine gets to the thermostat controlled temperature
- when drive by the cruise control on a flat road the needle of the consumpion indicator moves a lot. On this latter one I'd give a st but I'm afraid this is also something to do with the issue I have, kind of a side effect or so.

And let me get back to the whining. It is a bit strange since when engine is cold and the oil filling cup is at its place then no wining sound at all. But as the engine gets warmer then it starts whining. As far as I could observe it has got something to do with the consumption indicator somehow. When the needle is between 6-9 litres/km (sorry, I'm not sure about the UK consumption rate so this is metric-based) then comes the whining pretty audible on-board while travelling with 90 km/h (56mph). Similarly inside village when travelling with 35mph the very same thing happens. if the needle is below or above of these figures then practically no sound. When enginge runs in idle in cold then no sound at all. Although last summer after a long trip it was producing a huge whining when the car was stopped at a specialist to check. Hard to recall how was it and how is it changing when I open the oil fill cup. But enginge starts running pretty uneven if I open it up and there's senseable vaccum as well. Btw for a single day, right after I changed the intake manifold sealings it was running beatufilly. Next day? The very same unevennes.
I suspect still the vaccum, maybe the High Pressure Fuel Pump (its pressure is not quite stable at 200 bar when warm and gets way below when cold (150-160ish bar or so)). There is a new suspect beside all, it is maybe the oil sludge deposition on the valves at the piston head. There is a way to be cleaned without the need to disassemble the piston head but even this being too expensive I'd risk without knowing for sure that this is the source of my problem.

As for baby oil I tried it first but for me it didn't get the required result somehow. I'll make some further experiments still but it is very cold outside and I don't have other possiblity.

As for the blowing thing you say that I should take a pipe, press one end over the hole of the PCV cover, blow in on the other side when the enginge runs idle, right? Btw for me it was not affecting anything when pressed my finger on this hole at all, enginge was running the same way. Will search for the old diaphragm and check out the witness marks as well. (maybe I'll take a photo and upload here, dunno)

Sorry for the long writeup and thanks for your hints.

Edited by koanla on Monday 21st December 21:28

Edited by koanla on Monday 21st December 21:33

[bmwmike]

have you posted a vid of the whining noise? be good to know we are talking about the same thing. And yes, blow into the ccv via a tube - quite hard - and see if the noise stops.

Removing oil cap when cold will result in uneven idle - thats normal.

Removing oil cap when hot should have no effect for 5- 10 seconds then uneven idle - normal.

Ignore the valve deposits for now, n53 dont get that bad unless mega miles.

Presumably youve read the codes, anything significant?

[koanla]

bmwmike said:

have you posted a vid of the whining noise? be good to know we are talking about the same thing. And yes, blow into the ccv via a tube - quite hard - and see if the noise stops.

Removing oil cap when cold will result in uneven idle - thats normal.

Removing oil cap when hot should have no effect for 5- 10 seconds then uneven idle - normal.

Ignore the valve deposits for now, n53 dont get that bad unless mega miles.

Presumably youve read the codes, anything significant?

Not yet video was taken. The thing is that due to the pandemic I hardly can use the car and when I can it is rather a short trip only inside village. As mentioned I can not hear the whining when cold. Will observe it better from now on and will shoot a short vid and upload it after a longer trip. On the other hand what I was referring to comes when travelling only and I assume it would be hard to make it audible on a video shot by a phone frm the cabin. But let me just try it was well.

Thanks for the oil cup hints, will also observe it in more details next time. Also thanks for your view on the valve deposit topic. I took a look on it when I removed the intake manifold and it didn't seem that severe. unfortunately I was silly enough to not take a picture that time. And removing that thingy is a pain in the .... so I'd rather avoid.

As for codes I've got two permanent ones in regards of the Bank 1 CO catalytic converter. It complains both the normal and the stratified charge modes. Most probably I'll have to exchange that but first I'd like to clear out the issue with this part believing that until it presents it might screw up the swapped converter as well.
Since the autumn time to time I can also see uneven run in stratified charge mode as well. I deleted the errors yesterday and it was not present that time.

[SoupAnxiety]

The cold idle issues sound like they are injector related, my N53 330i did this, particularly going into autumn.
The whine only occurred when my diaphragm failed, it sounded like a Chewbacca wail on startup. Replacing the cap as detailed here solved it and it's been fine since I did the work in 2017.

I've replaced all six injectors with index 11 (used injectors, more info at https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=16...) and changed my CCV cap and diaphragm.

Not to tempt fate, but I'm on 190k miles now and have no fault codes, the engine runs great and delivers the intended mix of performance and economy. Oil consumption is around 1L every 2,000 miles which I'm happy with at the mileage I'm at.

[bmwmike]

SoupAnxiety said:

The cold idle issues sound like they are injector related, my N53 330i did this, particularly going into autumn.
The whine only occurred when my diaphragm failed, it sounded like a Chewbacca wail on startup. Replacing the cap as detailed here solved it and it's been fine since I did the work in 2017.

I've replaced all six injectors with index 11 (used injectors, more info at https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=16...) and changed my CCV cap and diaphragm.

Not to tempt fate, but I'm on 190k miles now and have no fault codes, the engine runs great and delivers the intended mix of performance and economy. Oil consumption is around 1L every 2,000 miles which I'm happy with at the mileage I'm at.

Ive just replaced mine at 71k, i think age must kill them as much as miles. I do a lot of short trips too.

They seem to make a variety of noises. Mine sounded like metal on metal or a belt badly slipping, with a warble to it. Was absolutely piercing.

And as i mentioned it also made a hum when it was working, i cant believe how quiet my n53 is now!

[koanla]

SoupAnxiety said:

The cold idle issues sound like they are injector related, my N53 330i did this, particularly going into autumn.
The whine only occurred when my diaphragm failed, it sounded like a Chewbacca wail on startup. Replacing the cap as detailed here solved it and it's been fine since I did the work in 2017.

I've replaced all six injectors with index 11 (used injectors, more info at https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=16...) and changed my CCV cap and diaphragm.

Not to tempt fate, but I'm on 190k miles now and have no fault codes, the engine runs great and delivers the intended mix of performance and economy. Oil consumption is around 1L every 2,000 miles which I'm happy with at the mileage I'm at.

Last year I exchanged all six injectors (ordered the special tool for the gasket ring from Germany and exchanged the decoupling element and the gasket rings, too), all are index 11 now. I also coded with INPA as well so I would rather opt out this as source of my issue.
https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/showparts?id=NV31...
Items 08, 09 and 10.

[koanla]

Okay, had the chance today to stretch the car's legs a bit and shot two videos of the whining, whistling high pitch sound. One is with the cover on, another with cover off. Also opened and closed the oil fill cap a few times. Hope both the whistling and the vaccum will be audible.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-RRkUaRW90

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PQ7Yvv5-no

[bmwmike]

Doesnt sound too bad. But the humming (whining?) that stops when you open the filler is the same noise i was referring to - its the plunger not sealing properly. Blow into the vent and it will stop.

[koanla]

bmwmike said:

Doesnt sound too bad. But the humming (whining?) that stops when you open the filler is the same noise i was referring to - its the plunger not sealing properly. Blow into the vent and it will stop.

Thanks for checking, apprecite. Also your hints. In the meantime I went a bit ahead checking some things and figured out that there could be two kind of issues with the CCVV:
- diaphragm being torn
- not sealing the plunget when needed

Also realized that why the issue was there at the time I bought the car and why my action was not proper neither. I can also recall now that I had two attempts to clue the cover since I realized after the first time that the cover was not sitting fully on its place. So I removed next day, reglued and this time put some weight onto the cover to force it sitting onto its place.

Aaaand this was also the reason I came here asking SoupAnxiety about the spring (but obviously he did not face this problem!). Currently I'm in the belief that my issue is caused by the spring and must be cut a bit. I'll also check the old diaphragm for the marks you mentioned earlier but had not yet the chance to figure it out which box, shelve did I put. Also will seek for the applicable tube/hose to blow the thing since you must be right: If the pressure from above can push down the diapragm and it is able to close the valve then it _should_ work - but the spring avoids it. Most probably the sping is also the causing factor why I had to glue it twice - it was simple pushed up the diapragm and the cover.

And there is also a way to check out the two possible causes using INPA. This latter I'll try tomorrow since it will not reuire long repair work outside in the cold (we expect the temp being about 0 degree in Celsius) but rather checking it via a laptop only.

As for cutting the spring: do you know maybe how much you did cut? Or any way one can determine the required amount?

Thank you!

[bmwmike]

spring... i cut half a turn and reshaped it, glued everything in and whine was still there so took it all apart and cut another half or so off, then reshaped it. Really hard to say how much in total, probs a bit over a full coil.

btw i glued the diaphragm to the cap and checked it was airtight then glued the cap to the cover.

[SoupAnxiety]

All I can add to bmwmike's advice is that I used liquid gasket rather than glue to seal the cap. I had no problems with the spring.

[bmwmike]

SoupAnxiety said:

All I can add to bmwmike's advice is that I used liquid gasket rather than glue to seal the cap. I had no problems with the spring.

yes, actually i used silicon gasket stuff too not glue!! good catch, not sure why i said glue.

[koanla]

SoupAnxiety said:

All I can add to bmwmike's advice is that I used liquid gasket rather than glue to seal the cap. I had no problems with the spring.

Sorry for the confusion but I'm not a native English speaker so don't really know the right verbs, words and expressions. As for glueing I was rather trying to refer to use of the liquid gasket as well.

Unfortunately this is still very cold outside (it was even snowing a few hours ago) so I couldn't carry on any actions but was thinking about the followings (hoping that tomorrow and in the following two days maybe it'll be a bit warm so I'll be able to work on the car):
1) check disconnecting the ventilation hose from rocker cover leads to intake manifold and close it by my finger temporary, start the engine and see if the issue is gone. Cold engine.
2) connect another hose (pipe, tube, whatsoever) to the opening on the rocker cover where normally the above mentioned hose is connected. Blow it: air should flow it freely into the rocker cover. Suck it: airflow should stop in this direction (I bet mine will not due to the issue with the spring). Maybe will experiment with opened and closed oil filling cap.
3) reconnect it, drive a few dozens of miles until I hear the whistling (hummering, whining, buzzing, whatsoever) sound. Get home, do the blow-in hint over the vent hole of the PCV/CCVV as bmwmike advised. It should stop the whatsoever sound - if the spring is faulty since the counter pressure is supposed to close the PCV/CCVV thus it can not make depression inside the rocker cover
4) connect D-Can cable, fire up INPA and check out the changing of the measures of Integrators when opening the oil filling cap.

I believe with these actions I'll be able to prove that the spring is too high/strong and avoids the membrane/diapragm, whatsoever to isolate the rocker cover from the intake manifold when there is strong depression.

if this is proven then I'll also advance gradually only since dunno what is the spring's current state. Either someone has already modified or what is the right amount to cut. So I'll start cutting half coil and later on and other half. Then all steps I'll take the car for a checkrun to see if the "youknow" sound is changing. I expect that I should see a change in the movement of the consumption indicator's needle. Based on my current belief it should come down from the 6-9 l/100km are to a lower amount. But let's see.

What ever is the case I'll take a look back if you don't mind (don't wanna hijack your topic but believeing it can be useful for other owners, too) and write about my experiences. Maybe a summary would anyway not hurt. You summarized very nicely how to carry out the replacement - maybe another piece would not hurt about adjusting the spring in case of need.

==================================================================

Status update as of Dec 28th
Carried out the following steps: 1) 2) 3) Finally decided to not been bothered now with the INPA thingy since all above were proven.
In details:
1) disconnected the ventilation hose from rocker cover and sat on the engine bay's edge while closed the hose's end by my finger. Then wife started the engine and was rolling the car for a few metres. Throttle was working fine.
2) connected the old vent hose to the rocker cover, closed the middle end by my finger, then blew it from the other end. Air flown freely - until a point. Did the same in the other direction and got the same result. Then opened the oil filler cap and repeated the above process. Now the air was flown until I was able to blow in both directions. Conclusion: spring prevents the valve to be closed.
3) blew the vent hole on the CCVV after the engine got warm and whistling started. Result: whistling immediately stopped until I kept up the counter-pressure. Conclusion is same as above.

Therefore disassembled the CCVV, cut a half coil for today and sealed it back. Will wait for tomorrow and will run a short test session to see how is it changing.

Will keep editing this post accordingly.

Edited by koanla on Monday 28th December 14:03

[koanla]

Well, quite struggling with sealing the diaphragm and the cap. Finally got to cut another half coil from the spring so it is now in minus one complete coil. Still something is not fine. Created a vid where no cap only the membrane is sealed (quite ugly now but airtight, ordered two new for the final stage). A minimal push stops the whining but it is obvioulsy there if not helped with pushing it. Tried to shape the spring and for me it seemed being straight so it is either the shaping still or there is something wrongly placed, don't really know now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZVthqQo1UU

Any hint, your view, please?
Thanks

Edited by koanla on Saturday 9th January 14:33

[bmwmike]

koanla said:

Well, quite struggling with sealing the diaphragm and the cap. Finally got to cut another half coil from the spring so it is now in minus one complete coil. Still something is not fine. Created a vid where no cap only the membrane is sealed (quite ugly now but airtight, ordered two new for the final stage). A minimal push stops the whining but it is obvioulsy there if not helped with pushing it. Tried to shape the spring and for me it seemed being straight so it is either the shaping still or there is something wrongly placed, don't really know now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZVthqQo1UU

Any hint, your view, please?
Thanks

Edited by koanla on Saturday 9th January 14:33

Is the noise coming from the rear of the diaphragm, i.e. leaking into the cylinder cover from externally? If you are absolutely certain that it is 100% sealed from atmosphere, the noise must be the plunger not seating fully on the vacuum, so you could try bending the spring coil to make it slightly shorter again - so rather than cutting, using two pairs of pliers to bend the last coil into itself so the spring length is shorter, but without snipping - that way you can undo it if needed.

Honestly doesn't sound too bad though i think i'd be as tempted to leave it too. Because as i mentioned, my n53 made that noise since i owned it at 33k miles, so for all i know, came from the factory like that. Its a crappy design. Mine is 90% better now, but there is still a bit of that noise if you listen for it.

[koanla]

bmwmike said:

Is the noise coming from the rear of the diaphragm, i.e. leaking into the cylinder cover from externally? If you are absolutely certain that it is 100% sealed from atmosphere, the noise must be the plunger not seating fully on the vacuum, so you could try bending the spring coil to make it slightly shorter again - so rather than cutting, using two pairs of pliers to bend the last coil into itself so the spring length is shorter, but without snipping - that way you can undo it if needed.

Honestly doesn't sound too bad though i think i'd be as tempted to leave it too. Because as i mentioned, my n53 made that noise since i owned it at 33k miles, so for all i know, came from the factory like that. Its a crappy design. Mine is 90% better now, but there is still a bit of that noise if you listen for it.

Was blowing to the rocker cover and it felt fully sealed* so I'm quite sure that it's the plunger not located properly when valve is (supposed to be) closed. Will test now until the 2 new diaphragm arrives. As if maybe it was getting better with warm engine. And even the oil filler cap has less vacuum now.

• started two days ago sealing and it was having two places where I had to apply some more gasket. Then tested again in the next day, still not sealed so applied gasket to the other leak and today it felt already okay.

[Herby303]

Cheer's SoupAnxiety for all your posts here, really helpful

I had the same problem, managed to get my membrane out and it had a big rip. Been chasing codes and rough idle for months, hopefully this fixes it.

Ordered the membrane and cap from https://vanos-bmw.com/product/11127552281-bmw-valv... should have them soon.

Only thing bothering me now is the fitting of the cap. Does the liquid gasket hold it in place fine? I know its not glue, but is it strong enough to hold down the aluminium cap. The tension from the spring is quite weak, but it looks like it would easily pop off without something holding it?
Should I leave the membrane loose or seal it to the cap?

I'm probably over thinking it, never used the stuff before. Any tips for a nice seal would be cool

Cheers

[SoupAnxiety]

Herby303 said:

Only thing bothering me now is the fitting of the cap. Does the liquid gasket hold it in place fine? I know its not glue, but is it strong enough to hold down the aluminium cap. The tension from the spring is quite weak, but it looks like it would easily pop off without something holding it?
Should I leave the membrane loose or seal it to the cap?

I'm probably over thinking it, never used the stuff before. Any tips for a nice seal would be cool

With mine, I ran a line of liquid gasket round the lip of the cap. I placed it on the membrane and the overspill I moved around with my finger. It's been on for years without issue, and if / when the membrane fails again, I'll still be able to remove the cap to get to it. I've had no problems with the gasket.

[bmwmike]

The vanos-bmw cap has little screws which can help hold it down. Its very well made.

I cut a bit off the spring on mine, sealed the diaphragm into the cap, then sealed the cap to the cam cover. Engine has never sounded better.

See bimmerprofs for more info, they have a page on CCV repair.