RE: Exclusive: BMW M3 spy-shots
Discussion
I don't understand the fuss. The outgoing CSL is a purist driver's car that has outstanding dynamic abilities with Ring lap times on 996 GT3 RS level. I met a CSL on a track day in Dijon four weeks ago and it was impressively fast.
That the coming M3 is likely to attract more posers than drivers - so what? A large number of 911s is owned by badge worshippers as well (that's why the non-S version exists in the first place, I guess).
Now, there is the question whether you want a sports car that looks like a rep mobile (although the CSL looks sufficiently mean IMHO). This is down to personal taste, willingness to fork out money and the need to combine pace and space in one car.
That the coming M3 is likely to attract more posers than drivers - so what? A large number of 911s is owned by badge worshippers as well (that's why the non-S version exists in the first place, I guess).
Now, there is the question whether you want a sports car that looks like a rep mobile (although the CSL looks sufficiently mean IMHO). This is down to personal taste, willingness to fork out money and the need to combine pace and space in one car.
DoctorD said:
Mr Whippy said:
All we end up with today is the purer cars being watered down to appeal to wider markets. Most likely buying the M5 or M3 for the badge and because it "costs the most" rather than because they want the M5/3 for driving or whatever. (of course thats not ALL, but a good majority I would say)
TVR on the other hand, no ABS or TCS or EBD or anything, just pure driving pleasure!
TVR on the other hand, no ABS or TCS or EBD or anything, just pure driving pleasure!
As a reasonably experienced racer and someone who has no reason to be shy of a 400/500bhp RWD car, I can perfectly understand the use of DSC/TC systems in powerful cars. In the dry I would prefer them all turned off, in the wet TC can be a godsend if you're tired and not in the mood for lairy action and if you happen to be driving during winter conditions....all I can say is "how much of a hero do you think you are?".
Modern technology has allowed ever greater access to powerful cars and perhaps there is an ethical issue in allowed drivers access to such quick cars that they might be so far away from mastering, but mostly I consider it a good thing. In future I suspect we will have more programmable DSC/ESP systems that can be tailored for a driver and the conditions (rather like Ferraris Manetto system) and if you've ever experienced such a system then it's hard to argue against them for a road car.
Fair point, but a 400bhp rwd saloon is only a 100bhp rwd saloon if you use 1/4 of the revs and throttle opening (over simplification)...
Lets just put it in perspective. If you can't handle the power, or it's unknown territory how a 400bhp car actually reacts without driver aids, then in my view you shouldn't be driving the car.
Knowledge is power, and that knowledge keeps most TVR drivers very honest. Having no aids in my view tames drivers to the reality of hugely powerful cars, wheras driver aids allow anyone to drive beyond their means, in ANY car!
Just my 2p but if you actually NEED any driver aids then your driving too fast or beyond your level for the prevailing conditions!
Dave
I agree with you on the first point, I would like to see every driver being competent enough to drive their cars without driver aids. That makes sense and I suspect would make the roads safer for us all.
But I don't agree with you on the merits of driver aids. They have been proven to make driving safer in adverse conditions, you will probably have seen those demonstrations of ESP being tested in icy conditions and the effectiveness of traction control when climbing icy slopes. This is a case of the driver aids offering a safety and mobility advantage 'regardless' of driver ability. I believe it was Tiff Needel who demonstrated the virtues of ESP on 5th Gear. In a powerful RWD car the advatanges of ESP/TC would be even more worthwhile, so putting any false bravado aside it makes sense to use these systems in modern powerful cars.
But in dry or damp conditions I would rather drive without them. ESP systems are downright dangerous if you intuitively correct a slide yourself and it's a scary experience to comfortably collect a slide only for ESP to decide it knows better. Anyone who's driven an M3 on a circuit with DSC still switched on will probably realise it's best to switch it off.
What we need is more driver oriented 'switchable' systems that allow you to drive the car up to the level of your own ability. At least BMW's M models allow you to switcn the systems fully off.
But I don't agree with you on the merits of driver aids. They have been proven to make driving safer in adverse conditions, you will probably have seen those demonstrations of ESP being tested in icy conditions and the effectiveness of traction control when climbing icy slopes. This is a case of the driver aids offering a safety and mobility advantage 'regardless' of driver ability. I believe it was Tiff Needel who demonstrated the virtues of ESP on 5th Gear. In a powerful RWD car the advatanges of ESP/TC would be even more worthwhile, so putting any false bravado aside it makes sense to use these systems in modern powerful cars.
But in dry or damp conditions I would rather drive without them. ESP systems are downright dangerous if you intuitively correct a slide yourself and it's a scary experience to comfortably collect a slide only for ESP to decide it knows better. Anyone who's driven an M3 on a circuit with DSC still switched on will probably realise it's best to switch it off.
What we need is more driver oriented 'switchable' systems that allow you to drive the car up to the level of your own ability. At least BMW's M models allow you to switcn the systems fully off.
I've driven a CSL on a BMW driver training day with a switch in the glovebox to turn off ABS and brake distribution, they has us doing an emergancy stop on a split surface, right wheels on ice, left wheels on tarmac both with and without.
I don't care how good you are, no human can brake 4 individual wheels different amounts in a panic situation (or any other situation really).
There is a real macho thing in the TVR forums about these systems, as Dr D says, at least the DSC can be disabled fully on M cars.
I don't care how good you are, no human can brake 4 individual wheels different amounts in a panic situation (or any other situation really).
There is a real macho thing in the TVR forums about these systems, as Dr D says, at least the DSC can be disabled fully on M cars.
Mr Whippy said:
Fair point, but a 400bhp rwd saloon is only a 100bhp rwd saloon if you use 1/4 of the revs and throttle opening (over simplification)...
Lets just put it in perspective. If you can't handle the power, or it's unknown territory how a 400bhp car actually reacts without driver aids, then in my view you shouldn't be driving the car.
Knowledge is power, and that knowledge keeps most TVR drivers very honest. Having no aids in my view tames drivers to the reality of hugely powerful cars, wheras driver aids allow anyone to drive beyond their means, in ANY car!
Just my 2p but if you actually NEED any driver aids then your driving too fast or beyond your level for the prevailing conditions!
Dave
Lets just put it in perspective. If you can't handle the power, or it's unknown territory how a 400bhp car actually reacts without driver aids, then in my view you shouldn't be driving the car.
Knowledge is power, and that knowledge keeps most TVR drivers very honest. Having no aids in my view tames drivers to the reality of hugely powerful cars, wheras driver aids allow anyone to drive beyond their means, in ANY car!
Just my 2p but if you actually NEED any driver aids then your driving too fast or beyond your level for the prevailing conditions!
Dave
I think this is an over simplification of driver aids as many of the modern aids help drivers in normal cars at sensible speeds be safer, not only for themselves but more importantly for others on the road, ABS being just one example. Now you may well say, "cadence braking is the same thing and a good driver knows how to do this" but I would disagree. Other systems, such as PSM on the 911 can also help those drivers who overstep the mark and this "TVR's have no and therefore it’s proper" is utter tripe. I had one, and I now drive a GT3 and sure I have no issues with the lack of PSM, but to say its solely to make a bad driver good is to somewhat miss the point. Its more of a case of looking out for everyone on the odd occasion they get it wrong, as we all do, including the TVR glitterati….
housemaster said:
Mr Whippy said:
Fair point, but a 400bhp rwd saloon is only a 100bhp rwd saloon if you use 1/4 of the revs and throttle opening (over simplification)...
Lets just put it in perspective. If you can't handle the power, or it's unknown territory how a 400bhp car actually reacts without driver aids, then in my view you shouldn't be driving the car.
Knowledge is power, and that knowledge keeps most TVR drivers very honest. Having no aids in my view tames drivers to the reality of hugely powerful cars, wheras driver aids allow anyone to drive beyond their means, in ANY car!
Just my 2p but if you actually NEED any driver aids then your driving too fast or beyond your level for the prevailing conditions!
Dave
Lets just put it in perspective. If you can't handle the power, or it's unknown territory how a 400bhp car actually reacts without driver aids, then in my view you shouldn't be driving the car.
Knowledge is power, and that knowledge keeps most TVR drivers very honest. Having no aids in my view tames drivers to the reality of hugely powerful cars, wheras driver aids allow anyone to drive beyond their means, in ANY car!
Just my 2p but if you actually NEED any driver aids then your driving too fast or beyond your level for the prevailing conditions!
Dave
I think this is an over simplification of driver aids as many of the modern aids help drivers in normal cars at sensible speeds be safer, not only for themselves but more importantly for others on the road, ABS being just one example. Now you may well say, "cadence braking is the same thing and a good driver knows how to do this" but I would disagree. Other systems, such as PSM on the 911 can also help those drivers who overstep the mark and this "TVR's have no and therefore it’s proper" is utter tripe. I had one, and I now drive a GT3 and sure I have no issues with the lack of PSM, but to say its solely to make a bad driver good is to somewhat miss the point. Its more of a case of looking out for everyone on the odd occasion they get it wrong, as we all do, including the TVR glitterati….
Fair enough, save you if you overcook it.
But what are you doing overcooking a powerfull car on the road anyway? Is it a good thing that you feel confident enough on the road to approach the limits of the cars adhesion and composure?
I'm playing devils advocate in a way. I've had close shaves with and without ABS in the past, and both times quick reactions have avoided a potential accident. Who knows if ABS was just a nice cushion when it was available, or whether it actually did turn an accident into a near miss.
I'm just not sure when it comes to PSM, DSC and general ESP though. I mean, HOW hard do you have to drive in the wet to get a car out of shape anyway?
Tiff Needel in the E39 M5 on the wet runway in the old Top Gear. He was really ragging the car around to get it working. I'd have no qualms with knowing I was driving a 400bhp rwd saloon and being very sensible with the car. DSC engaged and your brain can turn off, and you'd probably find a driver hitting it more often than not!
Put an average just passed learner into a DSC equipped M5 and a TVR Sagaris and I bet the DSC light will flash merrily away while the driver is oblivious to the fact they are teetering over the edge of their ability, with only computers saving the day.
But I'm sure the driver of the TVR would be scared into even indulging into the performance of the car, because it bites them.
Bad analogy but juggling red hot pokers is dangerous, just because BMW gives you asbestos gloves doesn't mean what your doing is safe!
It might be interesting to have BMW have DSC intervention counters on their cars, and log how many owners readily use it to find the limits when pushing on, rain or shine etc.
I agree not all drivers will do that, but as ESP systems trickle down to cars like Golf Gti's and other inherently safe cars you have to worry how much people are just loosing their ability to know their cars limits, as well as it saving their necks.
Ie, is it's ability to save you from yourself a result from you not knowing your car because of it being there in the first place?
How many TVR's are crashed within the first week of ownership? How many BMW M's have their DSC activated within the first week of ownership?
Does the fact it's there simply make people take extra liberties?
Dave
I can see where you are coming from and I agree that it's worrying how drivers increasing depend on electronic driver aids. I remember reading on some thread on PHeads when one poor soul believed that the ESP system on his Golf GTi would get him out of trouble no matter how far he exceeded it's limits. It won't and I only hope he learns so before he injures someone else.
The Tiff Needel example I referred to was actually him avoiding an obstruction set up on an ice lake, he was driving a 4WD Jag X-type and he demonstrated what would happen with the ESP switched off and with the ESP system switched on. Both times he used his not inconsiderable skills to avoid an accident, but with ESP switched off he was unable to. His conclusion was that any car should be fitted with these systems when conditions were poor. He was driving normally and not provoking the car in any way.
I believe there are two seperate issues being discussed here; firstly the dumbing down of driving standards which allow less capable drivers access to cars that they probably wouldn't be able to control without driver aids, and secondly do driver aids serve a useful purpose? Yes, I'm pretty sure driving standards are being diminished by driver aids but I would much rather they be fitted to cars because overall ABS/ESP/TC etc provide a much wider safety envelope for us all to drive within.
All BMWs of recent years have been very sweetly balanced cars that handle best with the DSC systems switched off, so electronic aids are in no ways replacing competent engineering solutions, but also their DSC/ESP systems are some of the least intrusive of any manufacturer that I know. Note: The E39 M5 was a very rare exception.
The Tiff Needel example I referred to was actually him avoiding an obstruction set up on an ice lake, he was driving a 4WD Jag X-type and he demonstrated what would happen with the ESP switched off and with the ESP system switched on. Both times he used his not inconsiderable skills to avoid an accident, but with ESP switched off he was unable to. His conclusion was that any car should be fitted with these systems when conditions were poor. He was driving normally and not provoking the car in any way.
I believe there are two seperate issues being discussed here; firstly the dumbing down of driving standards which allow less capable drivers access to cars that they probably wouldn't be able to control without driver aids, and secondly do driver aids serve a useful purpose? Yes, I'm pretty sure driving standards are being diminished by driver aids but I would much rather they be fitted to cars because overall ABS/ESP/TC etc provide a much wider safety envelope for us all to drive within.
All BMWs of recent years have been very sweetly balanced cars that handle best with the DSC systems switched off, so electronic aids are in no ways replacing competent engineering solutions, but also their DSC/ESP systems are some of the least intrusive of any manufacturer that I know. Note: The E39 M5 was a very rare exception.
DoctorD said:
The Tiff Needel example I referred to was actually him avoiding an obstruction set up on an ice lake, he was driving a 4WD Jag X-type and he demonstrated what would happen with the ESP switched off and with the ESP system switched on. Both times he used his not inconsiderable skills to avoid an accident, but with ESP switched off he was unable to. His conclusion was that any car should be fitted with these systems when conditions were poor. He was driving normally and not provoking the car in any way.
Yes I remember that episode.
Everyone at work was commenting on how amazing it was.
I too was impressed, but simply said I wouldn't be driving so quickly on ice that I would loose control in such magnificent fashion. Instead driving along at 20mph very calmly and leaving excess space for inputs and reactions.
I know it's easy to say, but if people see that then what are they going to drive like in ice and snow? I already see people drive very badly in poor conditions, likely their TC keeping their front wheels from spinning wildly and them getting understeer.
Double edged sword as always, on the one side it makes cars safer, but on the other side it makes them complacent... I for one will admit I would be more likely to lean on the car with ESP when I ran out of skill, rather than back off when I knew MY limits were reached.
This is one of the main reasons I love cars without TCS, and keep telling my partner to drive her car without it on, so she KNOWS what it's like without, simply because if you don't know you can't understand what the system IS doing for you
Once you realise that most cars are not mystically hard to drive, and that if you restrain yourself and understand a cars dynamics, even a 350bhp TVR shouldn't be a handful if you respect it and drive within YOUR limits, though I'm sure to get anything near 50% it's potential may well need a much higher level of skill. But it will be one that is superior to the skills of a car driver who drives with ESP on and bounces against it all the time!
I think I'll have to test it to know for sure, but I just can't see it as a positive thing. If a driver needs it then why are they driving such a potent car so quickly that they need it's intervention? Skill should come before speed, especially with these cars.
As a safety net, yes, good, but is it allowing speed to come before skill more and more?
Perhaps manufacturers should monitor ABS/ESP intervention and do some analysis of when drivers use it and need it. It would be interesting to see some trends across every day cars and sports cars etc...
Dave
I personally don't see anything wrong with certain driver aids, ABS maybe but a TCS is no bad thing so long as you can switch it off.
Its no suprose new TVR owners are bitten in the first few weeks of ownership, most of us have been driving FWD cars with at least TCS or ABS so going to a powerful RWD car (a lesson in driving itself) with no aids is a big jump.
Lets not forget that PH drivers are a tiny minority and mr fred blogs who drives cars is not an enthusiast and therefore has a different mind set to us. Most people see cars as a means of transport and for a family a lot of the time so they want every 3 letter acronym possible. in 99% of cases, drivers these days will see a problem and stomp on the brake pedal and hope for the best so if your merc or 3 series starts doing clever things with braking, steering etc all the better.
However if you like many of us on here like to push on occasionally and feel the car starting to go a little sideways (or a lot
) then you NEED to know that all of a sudden the car is not going to start braking the right front wheel or something daft so a simple off switch is needed.
Its testimant to BMWs slogan of being a drivers car that they spend millions on clever systems BUT you can still switch them off........even if they are fugly these days
Its no suprose new TVR owners are bitten in the first few weeks of ownership, most of us have been driving FWD cars with at least TCS or ABS so going to a powerful RWD car (a lesson in driving itself) with no aids is a big jump.
Lets not forget that PH drivers are a tiny minority and mr fred blogs who drives cars is not an enthusiast and therefore has a different mind set to us. Most people see cars as a means of transport and for a family a lot of the time so they want every 3 letter acronym possible. in 99% of cases, drivers these days will see a problem and stomp on the brake pedal and hope for the best so if your merc or 3 series starts doing clever things with braking, steering etc all the better.
However if you like many of us on here like to push on occasionally and feel the car starting to go a little sideways (or a lot
) then you NEED to know that all of a sudden the car is not going to start braking the right front wheel or something daft so a simple off switch is needed. Its testimant to BMWs slogan of being a drivers car that they spend millions on clever systems BUT you can still switch them off........even if they are fugly these days
I think the point about electronic aids are that they are more likely a political and legal requirement nowadays. Those manufacturers who make sporting cars normally find away to offer a purer option with these systems either switched off or severly disabled, like BMW's M Dynamic Mode for instance.
That said there are probably cars; like jet fighters which would be pretty much undrivable without electronic aids.
I'd be far more concerned about letting people drive cars who need buzzers to tell them the engine is running, lights are on, seatbelt is off, door is ajar, weight limit exceeded on the cup holder etc etc etc.
Mind you, I had to wonder the other day at a lady driving a Renault Laguna with the wing mirrors still folded in!!!
Perhaps what we need is the ultimate electronic driving aid. When you try to start your car with the engine running, don't sit up straight, drive with your mirrors folded in or your fog lights on, clip the kerb too many times, you activate the RTDITS system which announces that the car is being returned to the dealer as you are planily too stupid to drive it!!
See you at the dealer
That said there are probably cars; like jet fighters which would be pretty much undrivable without electronic aids.
I'd be far more concerned about letting people drive cars who need buzzers to tell them the engine is running, lights are on, seatbelt is off, door is ajar, weight limit exceeded on the cup holder etc etc etc.
Mind you, I had to wonder the other day at a lady driving a Renault Laguna with the wing mirrors still folded in!!!
Perhaps what we need is the ultimate electronic driving aid. When you try to start your car with the engine running, don't sit up straight, drive with your mirrors folded in or your fog lights on, clip the kerb too many times, you activate the RTDITS system which announces that the car is being returned to the dealer as you are planily too stupid to drive it!!
See you at the dealer
With all this debate on driver aids, I really have got no time to read them all but I have come from a modified Audi S4 to a CSL. I was a bit concerned I have always driven powerful rear wheel drive 2 years of utter security in the S4 made me a bit complacent with wet roundabouts etc. My first journey home encountered a wet bend on a road I know well, flat in third as normal up hill, back steps out light flashes the TC does its job.
I think the system on the CSL should be adjustable, on road tyres the car tends to spin the back wheels a bit too much even on mtrack mode but switch the system off completely on road tyres you have to have 150% concentration, awesome fun but F--K its a lively ride.
The technology on this car should be embraced as a good thing, if a bit frustrating I need some cup tyres and a good space to explore things properly, I for one think it is a welcome requirement for those days when I wear my heavy boots and my brain cannot get my limbs to replicate Colin McRae on a quick day!!!!
Well done BMW but can I have adjustable on my next V8 engined CSL M3.
I think the system on the CSL should be adjustable, on road tyres the car tends to spin the back wheels a bit too much even on mtrack mode but switch the system off completely on road tyres you have to have 150% concentration, awesome fun but F--K its a lively ride.
The technology on this car should be embraced as a good thing, if a bit frustrating I need some cup tyres and a good space to explore things properly, I for one think it is a welcome requirement for those days when I wear my heavy boots and my brain cannot get my limbs to replicate Colin McRae on a quick day!!!!
Well done BMW but can I have adjustable on my next V8 engined CSL M3.
m12_nathan said:
carsarecool said:
It might be a great drivers car, but come on, how can anyone aspire to own a car that looks like that?
Because they care about how it drives more than how it looks?
Sorry mate, but the two things add up to the whole.
Edit to add....
Can you honestly say that the new M3 is a looker? Your M3 CSL certainly is, but the new one is certainly not.
Edited by carsarecool on Tuesday 29th August 09:39
hunttheshunt said:
Perhaps what we need is the ultimate electronic driving aid. When you try to start your car with the engine running, don't sit up straight, drive with your mirrors folded in or your fog lights on, clip the kerb too many times, you activate the RTDITS system which announces that the car is being returned to the dealer as you are planily too stupid to drive it!!
That's more like it, I guess
. There is a worrying trend with these aids - as good as they have become over time - that they allow drivers even more to switch off their brains. Also they are used by car designers to cover up cr*ppy chassis. There are moments where I prefer to switch them fully off, driving on snow is one of them. The system in my last Boxster was not tuned to snow/ice conditions. It was much easier, safer and faster to drive switching the system off. Not sure how this will be on the 997S but I appreciate that there is a proper "off" switch, even if I'll used it only on rare occasions...
If I might add a practical example: My M Coupe (the early S50-B32 version without DSC) handled very well, and had high grip level, yet I never really dared pushing it more than 9/10 as the rear, once the limit had been (b)reached, would come out very quickly. In comparision, my DSC equipped M5 is not nearly as nimble, but I am much more confident exploiting its handling envelope (note: the DSC is actually too intrusive), and I find watching the wagging DSC hazard lights to be an indication of when I should back off.
I have no problem with electronic assistance, as long as you can turn it off.
Nowadays a lot people are buying 250bhp+ RWD cars as status symbols (Boxster, SLK350) without having worked their way up to that level of power and learned the necessary skills. I image a lot of them would have a harp and wings by now were it not for stability control.
That said, it's a real pain if you can't turn it off. My old Smart Roadster had a semi-permanent system (you could reduce it's effect via the switch, but it never turned fully off), which wouldn't have been so bad were it not so useless. All it seemed to do was iron out minor rear wheel slip, so if you pushed it too far it suddenly went in a big way and you were left wrestling a tank-slapper!
Nowadays a lot people are buying 250bhp+ RWD cars as status symbols (Boxster, SLK350) without having worked their way up to that level of power and learned the necessary skills. I image a lot of them would have a harp and wings by now were it not for stability control.
That said, it's a real pain if you can't turn it off. My old Smart Roadster had a semi-permanent system (you could reduce it's effect via the switch, but it never turned fully off), which wouldn't have been so bad were it not so useless. All it seemed to do was iron out minor rear wheel slip, so if you pushed it too far it suddenly went in a big way and you were left wrestling a tank-slapper!
Andrew D said:
That said, it's a real pain if you can't turn it off. My old Smart Roadster had a semi-permanent system (you could reduce it's effect via the switch, but it never turned fully off), which wouldn't have been so bad were it not so useless. All it seemed to do was iron out minor rear wheel slip, so if you pushed it too far it suddenly went in a big way and you were left wrestling a tank-slapper!
You need to hit a damp patch in a Griffith 500 at speed to put your tank slapper into context I would suggest. Nearly lost 2 stone in 2 seconds via my arse!
m12_nathan said:
carsarecool said:
It might be a great drivers car, but come on, how can anyone aspire to own a car that looks like that?
Because they care about how it drives more than how it looks?
I think this is important.
BMW had a nice conservative look before, and it's popularity in a sense was it's downfall.
Where "BMW drivers" have dropped the baton, "Audi drivers" have picked it up and are running with it full tilt!
I like the fact newer BMW's are an aquired taste, I like the fact people are now buying them because they want a BMW engineered car, rather than a nice looking company car with "that badge"...
I'd buy one now over the looks, because I know I'm buying it for what the car is really about. An Audi in my view at least is the new default choice "badge" car, and it's suffering already because of it. Too popular, every other car looks like an RS4, dull boring bland.
BMW on the other hand, rarer and look different, and hopefully have drivers who WANT a BMW underneath, not just stuck on the boot lid and bonnet!
Dave
My take on DSC is in part a snobbish one: the E46 M3 is now available at prices that a much larger cross-section of society can afford. Some M3s will go to enthusiasts whose financial muscle doesn't match their driving ability, but many, perhaps most, will go to people who think they are very good drivers, perhaps on the basis that they cna drive a five year old Imprezza with an aftermarket baked bean can at 60mph around town without crashing. Many of these will be saved from themselves by DSC. That makes it particularly worrying that a big thread in the M3 section on bm3w said that the majority of M3 drivers who posted to the thread always drive with DSC off. It is hardly surprising therefore that we see psots on the limes of "my new M3 went of the road sideways when I was overtaking".
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