any special procedures when changing lifetime oil in autobox
Discussion
Techie query,
I have a 1999 740i with a ZF A5S440Z (5HP-24) autobox which has been filled with lifetime transmission oil. The oil is Esso LT71 141 according to the green sticker on the transmission. Very occasionally I get a hard change. My local (non beemer) garage checked the oil level and it was fine but it did smell burnt.
On PH I have read that it is advisable to change the oil (even lifetime oil) at 100k miles. I have reached that figure, so I was wondering if it is just a case of draining the existing and filling with 9.7 litres of is Esso LT71 141.
Are there any special procedures when changing teh oil or anything I need to be aware of?
Many thanks
I have a 1999 740i with a ZF A5S440Z (5HP-24) autobox which has been filled with lifetime transmission oil. The oil is Esso LT71 141 according to the green sticker on the transmission. Very occasionally I get a hard change. My local (non beemer) garage checked the oil level and it was fine but it did smell burnt.
On PH I have read that it is advisable to change the oil (even lifetime oil) at 100k miles. I have reached that figure, so I was wondering if it is just a case of draining the existing and filling with 9.7 litres of is Esso LT71 141.
Are there any special procedures when changing teh oil or anything I need to be aware of?
Many thanks
It's quite an involved job so take it to a BMW indy or a auto box specialist.
The oil level has to be taken with the engine running and the oil at a certain temperature. New oil needs to be pumped in as the fill hole is difficult to access. Also when draining the old oil you can't get it all out as much is still stuck in the torque converter and other nooks and crannys.
Definitely a job for an expert.
The oil level has to be taken with the engine running and the oil at a certain temperature. New oil needs to be pumped in as the fill hole is difficult to access. Also when draining the old oil you can't get it all out as much is still stuck in the torque converter and other nooks and crannys.
Definitely a job for an expert.
Denis O said:
Definitely a job for an expert.
Agreed. It's nothing like doing an engine oil change.
The magic temperature is apparently 36 degrees Celsius and the transmission is very sensitive to (1) precise fluid specification, and (2) precise fluid level. It's "sealed for life" because there's no point doing a fluid change without changing the filter, which is inside. Hence the transmission sump has to be removed to do the job. Even then you only get a partial fluid change because much remains in the torque converter.
Have a look at
www.honestjohn.co.uk/faq/faq.htm?id=16
if you want to find a independent auto transmission specialist. It's not a job for your local oily rag. Cost is likely to be in the range £120 to £200 for a fluid and filter change.
JM2pW
I've got a 99 - 740 and I plan to change my fluid soon and I'm not trusting it to a dealer - sorry if it offends the "best take it to a dealer brigade" but I want it done right.
I gave a mate a hand to do the fluid on his 540i a couple of weeks back and we had it done in a couple of hours (initial change)
The trick AFAIAC is to repeatedly check the levels over a couple of days as filled to the level plug on the first fill (at the 20-40 deg gearbox temperature window) and then had to add 500ml the next day and then another 250ml the day after......
Had to leave it so long between checks cos the gearbox takes ages to cool down!!
I don't think that if you book the car in a dealer they will say the job will take three days
Parts required
Sump gasket
New bolts (old ones are normally pretty rusty so might not like being used twice)
Filter
Filler Plug and O ring (wise purchase)
Drain plug and washer
Approx 6 litres of the £9 per litre fluid
To do the job get the engine to operating temperature
First and bloody important......
Make sure you can undo the filler plug before you remove any oil
Drain fluid from sump using drain plug
Remove sump bolts
Drop sump (there will still be oil in it!)
Remove filter (be prepared to catch the fluid held back by it)
Clean all four sump pan magnets
Clean off old gasket material from box and sump pan
Fit new filter
Replace sump pan with new gasket and bolts
Fill up the sump pan with oil till it dribbles out the filler hole (using a drill pump or similar device)
Start engine and run for 30 secs on idle (to draw the fluid up thro the filter and into the galleries)
Stop engine
Top up the gearbox to replace the fluid lost re-filling the galleries and filter
Run the engine again on a fast idle untill the gearbox temperature is up to between 20 and 40 deg
Top up the fluid again and it should be fairly close
Check again next day and following day untill the box is at the correct level on every check.
A pit or a ramp makes life easy but wheel ramps and axle stands will do if you don't mid working on your back under a car
I've got a 99 - 740 and I plan to change my fluid soon and I'm not trusting it to a dealer - sorry if it offends the "best take it to a dealer brigade" but I want it done right.
I gave a mate a hand to do the fluid on his 540i a couple of weeks back and we had it done in a couple of hours (initial change)
The trick AFAIAC is to repeatedly check the levels over a couple of days as filled to the level plug on the first fill (at the 20-40 deg gearbox temperature window) and then had to add 500ml the next day and then another 250ml the day after......
Had to leave it so long between checks cos the gearbox takes ages to cool down!!
I don't think that if you book the car in a dealer they will say the job will take three days
Parts required
Sump gasket
New bolts (old ones are normally pretty rusty so might not like being used twice)
Filter
Filler Plug and O ring (wise purchase)
Drain plug and washer
Approx 6 litres of the £9 per litre fluid
To do the job get the engine to operating temperature
First and bloody important......
Make sure you can undo the filler plug before you remove any oil
Drain fluid from sump using drain plug
Remove sump bolts
Drop sump (there will still be oil in it!)
Remove filter (be prepared to catch the fluid held back by it)
Clean all four sump pan magnets
Clean off old gasket material from box and sump pan
Fit new filter
Replace sump pan with new gasket and bolts
Fill up the sump pan with oil till it dribbles out the filler hole (using a drill pump or similar device)
Start engine and run for 30 secs on idle (to draw the fluid up thro the filter and into the galleries)
Stop engine
Top up the gearbox to replace the fluid lost re-filling the galleries and filter
Run the engine again on a fast idle untill the gearbox temperature is up to between 20 and 40 deg
Top up the fluid again and it should be fairly close
Check again next day and following day untill the box is at the correct level on every check.
A pit or a ramp makes life easy but wheel ramps and axle stands will do if you don't mid working on your back under a car
Right I don't like posting stuff unless I can demonstrate
Right I was happy with the autobox change quality of my 740 when I bought it
Happier still when I drove my mate Wills 540i - it was nasty very jerky and slurred changes
However I gave him a hand to change the gearbox oil and filter and the difference was amazing - chalk and cheese
Bad news was it had leapt in front of mine in terms of change quality and I could see that my gearbox wasn't functioning as it should
- the tacho was slow to drop when changing into top
- slow speed changes could come in with a bang
- general slurred changes rather than crisp
But what I wasn't happy about £9 per litre plus vat for the oil!!!
The filter and gasklet however was less than £28 inc vat from BMW!!!
So we searched und a cheaper source for the oil
- obvously he wanted to do a couple more changes and I wanted to do at least 2 :lol: so we split the cost of it 50/50
Anyway today the 740 had it's first autobox fluid and filter change in nearly 100,000 miles
Over t' pit (As the yorkshire people might say)
Where I'm going to be concentrating on
I reckon my camera lens was a bit grimey!!!! I cleaned it and rest of pics are OK
First and very important make sure you can undo the filler plug
Don't remove it as you will get very mucky - just crack it
The level in the sump when the engine is not running is way above the level plug!!!
Next drain the oil
Remove sump plug
Drain oil (it comes out real fast)
Then start undoing the sump bolts (leave four in the corners)
Then loosen the two furthest away from the drain plug and undo the two closest to the drain plug completely
This will help to ensure the sump pan has a lot less oil in it when you drop it completely.
When the oil has stopped dripping put the bung back in, undo the last two bolts and drop the pan.
Heres the pan
And the magnets
Next clean the magnets and pan
Time to remove the filter (keep a bucket handy)
And removed
New filter (Part number info) O ring is not supplied with the filter)
And unwrapped
Fit O ring
And replace
Sump bolts all done up
Now we need some oil (£85 for 20 L - ouch but still a nice saving)
Transformer
Pump
Fire in the hole
Slow going but going down
Going down
Going down
Going down
At this point it started dribbling out so
Engine on and AC on full to give a increased idle speed
My mate Will worked it thro the gears to fill the galleries and we kept feeding it the oil
With the engine running finally it started to overflow again
Gearbox temperature at this point was 54 deg just inside limits
Pull the tube out shut of the pump and bang in the filer plug before too much oil is lost
So to give an indication of how much to put back I measured what came out
5L exactly
It took 4.75L at the first fill but I reckoned that was not allowing for filling up the galleries properly so I took it for a drive to propperly fill up all the galleries etc
Now you need to let it cool right down so time to change the plugs :lol: (I'll skip this bit cos it's not relevant)
So plugs changed and trannys cooled (ish - damn these engines hold their heat!!!)
Roll it over the pit
get the pump running back into the container less delay in filling the pan
get my mate Will to fire her up and with the AC on settle on a fast idle
Filler plug out
pipe in and top her up
Took about 750 ml before it started running down the pipe
Filler plug back in and shut it down.
Gearbox temperature by that point was 46 deg.
So whats the difference
Gearbox change quality - sensational
it no longer slowly drops the revs when going into top and whilst you can't feel the gearchanges the tacho tells a big story with nice positive drops and none of the slow decay that was there before.
Job done I reckon
Right I was happy with the autobox change quality of my 740 when I bought it
Happier still when I drove my mate Wills 540i - it was nasty very jerky and slurred changes
However I gave him a hand to change the gearbox oil and filter and the difference was amazing - chalk and cheese
Bad news was it had leapt in front of mine in terms of change quality and I could see that my gearbox wasn't functioning as it should
- the tacho was slow to drop when changing into top
- slow speed changes could come in with a bang
- general slurred changes rather than crisp
But what I wasn't happy about £9 per litre plus vat for the oil!!!
The filter and gasklet however was less than £28 inc vat from BMW!!!
So we searched und a cheaper source for the oil
- obvously he wanted to do a couple more changes and I wanted to do at least 2 :lol: so we split the cost of it 50/50 Anyway today the 740 had it's first autobox fluid and filter change in nearly 100,000 miles
Over t' pit (As the yorkshire people might say)
Where I'm going to be concentrating on
I reckon my camera lens was a bit grimey!!!! I cleaned it and rest of pics are OK
First and very important make sure you can undo the filler plug
Don't remove it as you will get very mucky - just crack it
The level in the sump when the engine is not running is way above the level plug!!!
Next drain the oil
Remove sump plug
Drain oil (it comes out real fast)
Then start undoing the sump bolts (leave four in the corners)
Then loosen the two furthest away from the drain plug and undo the two closest to the drain plug completely
This will help to ensure the sump pan has a lot less oil in it when you drop it completely.
When the oil has stopped dripping put the bung back in, undo the last two bolts and drop the pan.
Heres the pan
And the magnets
Next clean the magnets and pan
Time to remove the filter (keep a bucket handy)
And removed
New filter (Part number info) O ring is not supplied with the filter)
And unwrapped
Fit O ring
And replace
Sump bolts all done up
Now we need some oil (£85 for 20 L - ouch but still a nice saving)
Transformer
Pump
Fire in the hole
Slow going but going down
Going down
Going down
Going down
At this point it started dribbling out so
Engine on and AC on full to give a increased idle speed
My mate Will worked it thro the gears to fill the galleries and we kept feeding it the oil
With the engine running finally it started to overflow again
Gearbox temperature at this point was 54 deg just inside limits
Pull the tube out shut of the pump and bang in the filer plug before too much oil is lost
So to give an indication of how much to put back I measured what came out
5L exactly
It took 4.75L at the first fill but I reckoned that was not allowing for filling up the galleries properly so I took it for a drive to propperly fill up all the galleries etc
Now you need to let it cool right down so time to change the plugs :lol: (I'll skip this bit cos it's not relevant)
So plugs changed and trannys cooled (ish - damn these engines hold their heat!!!)
Roll it over the pit
get the pump running back into the container less delay in filling the pan
get my mate Will to fire her up and with the AC on settle on a fast idle
Filler plug out
pipe in and top her up
Took about 750 ml before it started running down the pipe
Filler plug back in and shut it down.
Gearbox temperature by that point was 46 deg.
So whats the difference
Gearbox change quality - sensational
it no longer slowly drops the revs when going into top and whilst you can't feel the gearchanges the tacho tells a big story with nice positive drops and none of the slow decay that was there before.
Job done I reckon
Edited by B'stard Child on Tuesday 10th April 00:18
Apart from the fact that the box and TC combined hold about 9 litres.
I looked at doing mine (5HP19) myself, but elected to take to an autobox specialist who were able to pressurise the system and remove just over 8 litres of oil.
total cost including new filter was £125
I looked at doing mine (5HP19) myself, but elected to take to an autobox specialist who were able to pressurise the system and remove just over 8 litres of oil.
total cost including new filter was £125
Edited by Dunk76 on Tuesday 10th April 09:41
Dunk76 said:
Apart from the fact that the box and TC combined hold about 9 litres.
Correct - At the moment 58% of the fluid is now new and thats better than it was.
So I'll give it a few hundred miles and then change the fluid again without dropping the sump (I'll Jack the rear of the car up to maximise the amount of fluid removed - silly design having a drain plug above the sump pan bottom!!!)
With another partial change of 4.25L of new fluid added and assuming the tranmission fluid becomes fully mixed then the total new fluid in the system will be just under 80%
I might do another change but it becomes a diminishing return 4.25L changed only increases the percentage of new fluid by 10%
Dunk76 said:
I looked at doing mine (5HP19) myself, but elected to take to an autobox specialist who were able to pressurise the system and remove just over 8 litres of oil.
total cost including new filter was £125
total cost including new filter was £125
Total cost for this change
£22.31 - 5.25L of Transmission fluid
£27.67 - Genuine BMW Transmission Filter, O ring and Gasket
Total = £50
I will do it again and based on what we got out of Will's 540 (4.25L) the cost of the next change will be another £18.
My big concern about taking it somewhere is the "window" for the gearbox temperature
Going from 20 deg to 40 deg doesn't take long and then the gearbox takes a long while to cool down. I'm not convinced that even a transmission specialist would take the time and trouble to do the job twice or even three times to ensure the level is spot on. Of course there are places out there that give excellent service but I'd rather do it myself and know that it's done right.
Alistair H. said:
What with and how did you measure the gearbox temperature?
Laptop connected to the diagnostic socket and a bit of carsoft software.
To be honest if I didn't have access to it I'd adopt the following proceedure
Drain as my post above
Replace filter, gaskets, clean sump magnets
Fill to level with engine off
Run engine to add as much fluid as possible (till it comes out of the level plug)
Replace level plug
Take for a drive to ensure all the galleries and filters are fully filled
Leave overnight to get fully cold
Start engine from cold and again add as much fluid as possible as previous
From a cold start you have about 10 mins max before it goes above the recomended temp judging by what we have noticed and that should be plenty of time to add the 250 - 500 ml it will probably take.
Dunk76 said:
B'stard Child said:
Correct - At the moment 58% of the fluid is now new and thats better than it was.
Or, 100% of the fluid is still contaminated - albeit half as much as it was
Yeah I can go with either
Nice bit for me was the fluid didn't smell burnt so I think it was a change in time
According to BMW TIS Correct fill from empty rquirement is 9.7 Litres BTW
I don't have a problem with what people do
- Don't worry about doing a gearbox fluid change at all
- Pay a specialist to do it
- Pay BMW to do it
- Buy the Oil and DIY
The bottom line is that sealed for life gearboxes are just that - but poor fluid condition might mean a shorter life than expected
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