E92 M3, destined for failure?
Discussion
neiljohnson said:
Imho i think neither the m3 or the m5 are gonna have good residuals due to the amount of tecnology involved, who wants to buy a car for 20k that could cost them that again if it goes bang???
Ive worked in the motor trade all my life and have worked on many Bmw's including most of the m cars including my brother in laws e39 m5. Tbh if a new m3 or m5 came in for anything other than basic work i would send it to the dealer. Im sure there are independent specialists out there who are probably better than Bmw at working on them but i fear that with cars this complex an electrical fault could in theroy right it off.
For example i know the director of a local firm whos vans we look after has a 2007 m5 which has developed a fault with the smg gearbox, under warranty so straight back to the dealer.... 8 months ago and yes they still have it! If the dealer cant fix them what chance has the entusiast got of fixing it in his garage at home?? as it tends to be people like this that keep these cars alive.
Of course this isnt a Bmw exclusive problem.
If the dealer has had a car sat in the workshop for 8 months with a fault, then BMW would of replaced it by now? or atleast made a contribution to the chap to change it......Ive worked in the motor trade all my life and have worked on many Bmw's including most of the m cars including my brother in laws e39 m5. Tbh if a new m3 or m5 came in for anything other than basic work i would send it to the dealer. Im sure there are independent specialists out there who are probably better than Bmw at working on them but i fear that with cars this complex an electrical fault could in theroy right it off.
For example i know the director of a local firm whos vans we look after has a 2007 m5 which has developed a fault with the smg gearbox, under warranty so straight back to the dealer.... 8 months ago and yes they still have it! If the dealer cant fix them what chance has the entusiast got of fixing it in his garage at home?? as it tends to be people like this that keep these cars alive.
Of course this isnt a Bmw exclusive problem.
Edited by neiljohnson on Friday 24th October 07:34
neiljohnson said:
Imho i think neither the m3 or the m5 are gonna have good residuals due to the amount of tecnology involved, who wants to buy a car for 20k that could cost them that again if it goes bang???
Ive worked in the motor trade all my life and have worked on many Bmw's including most of the m cars including my brother in laws e39 m5. Tbh if a new m3 or m5 came in for anything other than basic work i would send it to the dealer. Im sure there are independent specialists out there who are probably better than Bmw at working on them but i fear that with cars this complex an electrical fault could in theroy right it off.
For example i know the director of a local firm whos vans we look after has a 2007 m5 which has developed a fault with the smg gearbox, under warranty so straight back to the dealer.... 8 months ago and yes they still have it! If the dealer cant fix them what chance has the entusiast got of fixing it in his garage at home?? as it tends to be people like this that keep these cars alive.
Of course this isnt a Bmw exclusive problem.
So the car has been at the dealer for 8 months and he hasn't demanded a replacement car? Does he have a spine?Ive worked in the motor trade all my life and have worked on many Bmw's including most of the m cars including my brother in laws e39 m5. Tbh if a new m3 or m5 came in for anything other than basic work i would send it to the dealer. Im sure there are independent specialists out there who are probably better than Bmw at working on them but i fear that with cars this complex an electrical fault could in theroy right it off.
For example i know the director of a local firm whos vans we look after has a 2007 m5 which has developed a fault with the smg gearbox, under warranty so straight back to the dealer.... 8 months ago and yes they still have it! If the dealer cant fix them what chance has the entusiast got of fixing it in his garage at home?? as it tends to be people like this that keep these cars alive.
Of course this isnt a Bmw exclusive problem.
Edited by neiljohnson on Friday 24th October 07:34
People who witter on about "technology" depress me. All modern performance cars have these kinds of systems.
t in.
Tbh the dealer have been very good and he is less bothered as had a selection of cars from the dealer in this time as well as a goodwill gesture from Bmw (what this amounts to i dont know) the car is currently being run through the we cant fix it so ur getting your money back.
He has had the car from nearly new & is now getting all his money back so i think he has had a good deal.
He has had the car from nearly new & is now getting all his money back so i think he has had a good deal.
TheCaseAce said:
"Worldwide M sales on the up"
In its 30th year, M GmbH's sales during the first 9 months of 2008 have already exceeded those achieved during the whole of 2007.
The M3 accounts for around 70% of M sales and there was no M3 available in 2007 until the last 3 months so those figures aren't surprising at all. In its 30th year, M GmbH's sales during the first 9 months of 2008 have already exceeded those achieved during the whole of 2007.
neiljohnson said:
Tbh the dealer have been very good and he is less bothered as had a selection of cars from the dealer in this time as well as a goodwill gesture from Bmw (what this amounts to i dont know) the car is currently being run through the we cant fix it so ur getting your money back.
He has had the car from nearly new & is now getting all his money back so i think he has had a good deal.
These thing happen every day. I keep telling people my F430 engine died as i was taking it out of the showroom and they've been trying to fix it ever since. I've since had to buy an 05 BMW to run about it until they get it sorted. Its been 18 months now since that fateful day but last tuesday Enzo Ferrari appeared to me in a vision to say that he would personally commission its replacement for me, which is good news.He has had the car from nearly new & is now getting all his money back so i think he has had a good deal.
If it wasnt for my friend Geoffrey, the invisible giraffe, i think i'd have went mad.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
That's right, most dealers had two or three demo cars this time though and production wasn't limited, trying to get an E46 in year one and even into year two was impossible, hence why people were paying list on a year old car for the first two years. BMW is a very different company compared with 7 years ago, they are now a volume manufacturer.
My tuppence.
It's worth remembering that the E30 M3 wasn't terribly well recieved at launch (helped in part due to the press cars RHD/Birds/325i rack conversion), didn't actually sell very well officially, and wasn't that expensive - indeed, both the Merc 190E 2.3-16 and the Sierra Cosworth outsold it. The Merc was more expensive, just, and the Cossie was considerably cheaper. Indeed, today you're lucky to find an official UK car on the used market. It was also up against some stiff competition in 1986 - UR-quattro, 2.3-16, and the Cosworth.
The E36 ploughed into the market in 1992 slap bang in the middle of a performance car recession in the UK - insurance wise at least. What was it's competition? The last of the old school homologation specials - the ageing and ruinously expensive 190E 2.5-16, 20v quattro, late Integrales. Or, the new stuff like the quick but chronically under-developed Calibra Turbo, the wayward 220 Turbo Coupe, the bland Audi S2, and the completely uninsurable Escort Cosworth. I think the E36 did well precisely because it wasn't a homologation special, and because it didn't pander to the 4WD thing going on at the time.
The E46 entered the market at the beginning of a global boom in credit and was going head-to-head with what? Precisely nothing. 300bhp+ RWD four seat coupes were thin on the ground in 2001, especially German ones. Mercedes content to compete more against Alpina than the ///M cars, Audi producing crushingly fast but slightly wooden 4wd missiles, nobody else bothering except the odd Jap stuff like the 200sx, which was end of life by that point.
So, with the E36 and E46, BMW beat the market by producing excellent cars which Joe Punter wanted - not necessarily what the trackhead Journos were craving for, but they're not the ones signing the finance agreements.
The E90, however, is a bit of a white elephant - certainly in Europe it's arrived at a terrible time (although that also applies to the C63 AMG, Passat R36, Audi RS6 etc etc).
Whether it's destined for failure or not is an interesting question - the astonishing performance of the 335i/335d does make the M3 a bit of a nutters choice (being frank, in the everyday world of driving, 400bhp is no more useable than 300bhp).
I think one of it's problems is the E90/92, rather than the M3 itself. The range is a bit of a paradox - the build and ergonomic quality is shocking in some areas. The Crayola effect paint is a bloody joke. It's styling is contrived - the conscious decision by BMW to play safe with the Bangle-ness actually works against it now it's a few years old. I think the sheer volume of 320d ES repmobiles also hampers the M3s sales chances, the C-Class has it licked in the willy-waving department, and the Audi RS models have rock solid residuals if that's your thing.
Perhaps, though, the E92's biggest problem is what it is - no matter how you carve it, it's a relic of a bygone age. Normally aspirated, RWD, two door, impractical, not the quickest thing in it's class, and apparently shunned by the buying public (On the road I've seen more C63s than I've seen M3s).
Perhaps then, the M3 has come full circle?
It's 1986 again, and the press and the punters can't make up their minds at the moment. But in ten years time there will be a bludgeoning import market and it will sit wheel-to-wheel on the mythical plinth of 'cult driver hero must own before you die' with it's Great Grandfather.
Personally I love it, but the four door is nicer looking, but then if I wanted a brain-bendingly quick E90 I'd be buying the Alpina B3 Bi-Turbo...
It's worth remembering that the E30 M3 wasn't terribly well recieved at launch (helped in part due to the press cars RHD/Birds/325i rack conversion), didn't actually sell very well officially, and wasn't that expensive - indeed, both the Merc 190E 2.3-16 and the Sierra Cosworth outsold it. The Merc was more expensive, just, and the Cossie was considerably cheaper. Indeed, today you're lucky to find an official UK car on the used market. It was also up against some stiff competition in 1986 - UR-quattro, 2.3-16, and the Cosworth.
The E36 ploughed into the market in 1992 slap bang in the middle of a performance car recession in the UK - insurance wise at least. What was it's competition? The last of the old school homologation specials - the ageing and ruinously expensive 190E 2.5-16, 20v quattro, late Integrales. Or, the new stuff like the quick but chronically under-developed Calibra Turbo, the wayward 220 Turbo Coupe, the bland Audi S2, and the completely uninsurable Escort Cosworth. I think the E36 did well precisely because it wasn't a homologation special, and because it didn't pander to the 4WD thing going on at the time.
The E46 entered the market at the beginning of a global boom in credit and was going head-to-head with what? Precisely nothing. 300bhp+ RWD four seat coupes were thin on the ground in 2001, especially German ones. Mercedes content to compete more against Alpina than the ///M cars, Audi producing crushingly fast but slightly wooden 4wd missiles, nobody else bothering except the odd Jap stuff like the 200sx, which was end of life by that point.
So, with the E36 and E46, BMW beat the market by producing excellent cars which Joe Punter wanted - not necessarily what the trackhead Journos were craving for, but they're not the ones signing the finance agreements.
The E90, however, is a bit of a white elephant - certainly in Europe it's arrived at a terrible time (although that also applies to the C63 AMG, Passat R36, Audi RS6 etc etc).
Whether it's destined for failure or not is an interesting question - the astonishing performance of the 335i/335d does make the M3 a bit of a nutters choice (being frank, in the everyday world of driving, 400bhp is no more useable than 300bhp).
I think one of it's problems is the E90/92, rather than the M3 itself. The range is a bit of a paradox - the build and ergonomic quality is shocking in some areas. The Crayola effect paint is a bloody joke. It's styling is contrived - the conscious decision by BMW to play safe with the Bangle-ness actually works against it now it's a few years old. I think the sheer volume of 320d ES repmobiles also hampers the M3s sales chances, the C-Class has it licked in the willy-waving department, and the Audi RS models have rock solid residuals if that's your thing.
Perhaps, though, the E92's biggest problem is what it is - no matter how you carve it, it's a relic of a bygone age. Normally aspirated, RWD, two door, impractical, not the quickest thing in it's class, and apparently shunned by the buying public (On the road I've seen more C63s than I've seen M3s).
Perhaps then, the M3 has come full circle?
It's 1986 again, and the press and the punters can't make up their minds at the moment. But in ten years time there will be a bludgeoning import market and it will sit wheel-to-wheel on the mythical plinth of 'cult driver hero must own before you die' with it's Great Grandfather.
Personally I love it, but the four door is nicer looking, but then if I wanted a brain-bendingly quick E90 I'd be buying the Alpina B3 Bi-Turbo...
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Dunk76 said:
My tuppence.
It's worth remembering that the E30 M3 wasn't terribly well recieved at launch (helped in part due to the press cars RHD/Birds/325i rack conversion), didn't actually sell very well officially, and wasn't that expensive - indeed, both the Merc 190E 2.3-16 and the Sierra Cosworth outsold it. The Merc was more expensive, just, and the Cossie was considerably cheaper. Indeed, today you're lucky to find an official UK car on the used market. It was also up against some stiff competition in 1986 - UR-quattro, 2.3-16, and the Cosworth.
The E36 ploughed into the market in 1992 slap bang in the middle of a performance car recession in the UK - insurance wise at least. What was it's competition? The last of the old school homologation specials - the ageing and ruinously expensive 190E 2.5-16, 20v quattro, late Integrales. Or, the new stuff like the quick but chronically under-developed Calibra Turbo, the wayward 220 Turbo Coupe, the bland Audi S2, and the completely uninsurable Escort Cosworth. I think the E36 did well precisely because it wasn't a homologation special, and because it didn't pander to the 4WD thing going on at the time.
The E46 entered the market at the beginning of a global boom in credit and was going head-to-head with what? Precisely nothing. 300bhp+ RWD four seat coupes were thin on the ground in 2001, especially German ones. Mercedes content to compete more against Alpina than the ///M cars, Audi producing crushingly fast but slightly wooden 4wd missiles, nobody else bothering except the odd Jap stuff like the 200sx, which was end of life by that point.
So, with the E36 and E46, BMW beat the market by producing excellent cars which Joe Punter wanted - not necessarily what the trackhead Journos were craving for, but they're not the ones signing the finance agreements.
The E90, however, is a bit of a white elephant - certainly in Europe it's arrived at a terrible time (although that also applies to the C63 AMG, Passat R36, Audi RS6 etc etc).
Whether it's destined for failure or not is an interesting question - the astonishing performance of the 335i/335d does make the M3 a bit of a nutters choice (being frank, in the everyday world of driving, 400bhp is no more useable than 300bhp).
I think one of it's problems is the E90/92, rather than the M3 itself. The range is a bit of a paradox - the build and ergonomic quality is shocking in some areas. The Crayola effect paint is a bloody joke. It's styling is contrived - the conscious decision by BMW to play safe with the Bangle-ness actually works against it now it's a few years old. I think the sheer volume of 320d ES repmobiles also hampers the M3s sales chances, the C-Class has it licked in the willy-waving department, and the Audi RS models have rock solid residuals if that's your thing.
Perhaps, though, the E92's biggest problem is what it is - no matter how you carve it, it's a relic of a bygone age. Normally aspirated, RWD, two door, impractical, not the quickest thing in it's class, and apparently shunned by the buying public (On the road I've seen more C63s than I've seen M3s).
Perhaps then, the M3 has come full circle?
It's 1986 again, and the press and the punters can't make up their minds at the moment. But in ten years time there will be a bludgeoning import market and it will sit wheel-to-wheel on the mythical plinth of 'cult driver hero must own before you die' with it's Great Grandfather.
Personally I love it, but the four door is nicer looking, but then if I wanted a brain-bendingly quick E90 I'd be buying the Alpina B3 Bi-Turbo...
It's worth remembering that the E30 M3 wasn't terribly well recieved at launch (helped in part due to the press cars RHD/Birds/325i rack conversion), didn't actually sell very well officially, and wasn't that expensive - indeed, both the Merc 190E 2.3-16 and the Sierra Cosworth outsold it. The Merc was more expensive, just, and the Cossie was considerably cheaper. Indeed, today you're lucky to find an official UK car on the used market. It was also up against some stiff competition in 1986 - UR-quattro, 2.3-16, and the Cosworth.
The E36 ploughed into the market in 1992 slap bang in the middle of a performance car recession in the UK - insurance wise at least. What was it's competition? The last of the old school homologation specials - the ageing and ruinously expensive 190E 2.5-16, 20v quattro, late Integrales. Or, the new stuff like the quick but chronically under-developed Calibra Turbo, the wayward 220 Turbo Coupe, the bland Audi S2, and the completely uninsurable Escort Cosworth. I think the E36 did well precisely because it wasn't a homologation special, and because it didn't pander to the 4WD thing going on at the time.
The E46 entered the market at the beginning of a global boom in credit and was going head-to-head with what? Precisely nothing. 300bhp+ RWD four seat coupes were thin on the ground in 2001, especially German ones. Mercedes content to compete more against Alpina than the ///M cars, Audi producing crushingly fast but slightly wooden 4wd missiles, nobody else bothering except the odd Jap stuff like the 200sx, which was end of life by that point.
So, with the E36 and E46, BMW beat the market by producing excellent cars which Joe Punter wanted - not necessarily what the trackhead Journos were craving for, but they're not the ones signing the finance agreements.
The E90, however, is a bit of a white elephant - certainly in Europe it's arrived at a terrible time (although that also applies to the C63 AMG, Passat R36, Audi RS6 etc etc).
Whether it's destined for failure or not is an interesting question - the astonishing performance of the 335i/335d does make the M3 a bit of a nutters choice (being frank, in the everyday world of driving, 400bhp is no more useable than 300bhp).
I think one of it's problems is the E90/92, rather than the M3 itself. The range is a bit of a paradox - the build and ergonomic quality is shocking in some areas. The Crayola effect paint is a bloody joke. It's styling is contrived - the conscious decision by BMW to play safe with the Bangle-ness actually works against it now it's a few years old. I think the sheer volume of 320d ES repmobiles also hampers the M3s sales chances, the C-Class has it licked in the willy-waving department, and the Audi RS models have rock solid residuals if that's your thing.
Perhaps, though, the E92's biggest problem is what it is - no matter how you carve it, it's a relic of a bygone age. Normally aspirated, RWD, two door, impractical, not the quickest thing in it's class, and apparently shunned by the buying public (On the road I've seen more C63s than I've seen M3s).
Perhaps then, the M3 has come full circle?
It's 1986 again, and the press and the punters can't make up their minds at the moment. But in ten years time there will be a bludgeoning import market and it will sit wheel-to-wheel on the mythical plinth of 'cult driver hero must own before you die' with it's Great Grandfather.
Personally I love it, but the four door is nicer looking, but then if I wanted a brain-bendingly quick E90 I'd be buying the Alpina B3 Bi-Turbo...
Like he said,apart from the 4 door thing
Just gone up, from guys who happen to own the cars too, well worth a watch.....
http://www.drivers-republic.com/dr_tv/
http://www.drivers-republic.com/dr_tv/
Just to show off, a little something that I shot.
http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Video/Search-Results/...
http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Video/Search-Results/...
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