£32k on a BMW - M3 or M5???
Discussion
bennno said:
dubbs said:
I found the 996 turbo to feel too old fashioned.
997 I like but tbh it'd have to be the turbo to feel as quick or quicker compared to M5/M6
you are joking a base 997 will get to 60 faster than an M5 (4.6 secs) and when the M car hits it 155mph speed limiter the porker will continue on to 178mph. besides its much for agile and just feels a ton quicker on the road, the gearbox of the M5 put me off. 997 I like but tbh it'd have to be the turbo to feel as quick or quicker compared to M5/M6
a CSL is a good alternative and I would wager that a late E46 is probably a better drive and ownership proposition than the latest V8 M3.
bennno
A V10 M5 doesn't 'feel' especially fast as its refined, very heavy and has an auto gearbox.
Think back to Top gear when they tested the 510bhp M6, 380bhp V8 Vantage and a 350bhp Carrera - the low powered 997 whooped them by 20 seconds over a timed run on a mountain road.
The bm weighs 50% more than the bimmer hence the speed of the 997 as its power to weight is similar, but its agility better.
Ignoring the above the primary concern at the moment should be depreciation risk and I suspect there will be a few main dealer £20-£22k M5's kicking about by the end of the year.
Bennno
Think back to Top gear when they tested the 510bhp M6, 380bhp V8 Vantage and a 350bhp Carrera - the low powered 997 whooped them by 20 seconds over a timed run on a mountain road.
The bm weighs 50% more than the bimmer hence the speed of the 997 as its power to weight is similar, but its agility better.
Ignoring the above the primary concern at the moment should be depreciation risk and I suspect there will be a few main dealer £20-£22k M5's kicking about by the end of the year.
Bennno
Edited by bennno on Monday 5th January 23:50
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Going O/T now really but...If simple straight line speed was my consideration then I'd have bought a tweaked RS6 or breathed on 996 turbo.
For me the M6 was the best balance
A 997 is a great car as I said before... it's just not as special in my book and doesn't feel as quick - the M6 definitely feels quicker and pulls like a bloomin' steam train - the base 997, possibly faster on twisty B roads with all things being equal, doesn't feel as quick. A 997 Turbo would feel quicker.
Rewarding... that's in the eyes of the beholder... a 997 may be ultimately faster but which is most rewarding at the end is down to what floats your boat. If it's knowing you've mastered 507bhp drifting the rear elegantly round corners and generally having a car sound like God's thunder as you do so then maybe the 5/6 is most rewarding. If it's piloting once of the best handling German sportscars and the feeling of that rear squatting down and gripping like hell thanks to the weight in the back then maybe the 997 is.
You choose your weapon as it suits
Getting back to the OP's question... which out of M3 and M5 for 32k... well a base model 997 doesn't figure...
bennno said:
A V10 M5 doesn't 'feel' especially fast as its refined, very heavy and has an auto gearbox.
Think back to Top gear when they tested the 510bhp M6, 380bhp V8 Vantage and a 350bhp Carrera - the low powered 997 whooped them by 20 seconds over a timed run on a mountain road.
An M6 does and it's not an auto, it's a semi-auto/clutchless manual Think back to Top gear when they tested the 510bhp M6, 380bhp V8 Vantage and a 350bhp Carrera - the low powered 997 whooped them by 20 seconds over a timed run on a mountain road.
I've not driven an E60 M5 to compare with the M6 but surprised you felt it didn't feel espeically fast... did you drive one whilt having the 997?
20seconds? Don't doubt the 997 is faster in the twisties, it makes sense. Not knocking them at all as they're great cars - they just do not FEEL as fast, that's the only comment I was making.
However let's get back to topic... the OP is asking about M3 and M5 - suggesting a 997 on the basis it's faster when piloted by a racing driver is about as bad as me saying to him he should buy an Exige 240R as it'll go through the same section a hell of a lot faster than a base 997
Well i haven't driven then new M3 but from what's I've heard it's good. I have however driven the M5 and the M6 and would not recommend them. I personally just couldn't live with their gearboxes. I genuinely thought they were absolutely terrible. it's a shame because they aren't bad cars but the gearbox really lets them down. I also didn't actually find them that exciting to drive. Well perhaps that's unfair. I didn't think they were any different to a normal 5 series UNLESS you are absolutely thrashing the pants off it.
I would tell your friend to go test drive them both, personally though i would go for the M3.
I would tell your friend to go test drive them both, personally though i would go for the M3.
lambo_xx said:
Well i haven't driven then new M3 but from what's I've heard it's good. I have however driven the M5 and the M6 and would not recommend them. I personally just couldn't live with their gearboxes. I genuinely thought they were absolutely terrible. it's a shame because they aren't bad cars but the gearbox really lets them down. I also didn't actually find them that exciting to drive. Well perhaps that's unfair. I didn't think they were any different to a normal 5 series UNLESS you are absolutely thrashing the pants off it.
I would tell your friend to go test drive them both, personally though i would go for the M3.
Interesting that you found the M5 and M6 no different to a normal 5 series... that just doesn't make any sense. The M5 and M6 both drive differently... did you just drive the M5 or did you not get a decent drive in the M6?I would tell your friend to go test drive them both, personally though i would go for the M3.
Gearbox... yep some that are really used to manual will never get on with them, it took me a good month or so to understand how to drive the car properly. Unlike DSG and the newer systems you need to alter your driving for SMG.. once you do it works well.
I do find it a shame that people immediately s
g off the SMG box in the CSL/M5/M6 but have never really spent any time with it to alter their driving style to suit. We all do it for the way a car handles, brakes, etc., but when it comes to changing gear it seems people aren't prepared to give it time to learn how to get the best from it.bennno said:
A V10 M5 doesn't 'feel' especially fast as its refined, very heavy and has an auto gearbox.
Think back to Top gear when they tested the 510bhp M6, 380bhp V8 Vantage and a 350bhp Carrera - the low powered 997 whooped them by 20 seconds over a timed run on a mountain road.
The bm weighs 50% more than the bimmer hence the speed of the 997 as its power to weight is similar, but its agility better.
Ignoring the above the primary concern at the moment should be depreciation risk and I suspect there will be a few main dealer £20-£22k M5's kicking about by the end of the year.
Bennno
Er, have you driven one? It feels ridiculously fast, especially compared to the Carrera and the AMV8. One thing the M5 does perfectly is give you scary acceleration. It is slower than the other two around challenging corners given its size and weight, but it never, ever, feels anything other than insanely fast. Think back to Top gear when they tested the 510bhp M6, 380bhp V8 Vantage and a 350bhp Carrera - the low powered 997 whooped them by 20 seconds over a timed run on a mountain road.
The bm weighs 50% more than the bimmer hence the speed of the 997 as its power to weight is similar, but its agility better.
Ignoring the above the primary concern at the moment should be depreciation risk and I suspect there will be a few main dealer £20-£22k M5's kicking about by the end of the year.
Bennno
Edited by bennno on Monday 5th January 23:50
There is occasionally the problem that someone who tests one doesn't use more than 6k of the rev range and comes away feeling it is quick but polite, but no good driver would do that.
Edited by Zod on Saturday 24th January 00:39
bennno said:
A V10 M5 doesn't 'feel' especially fast as its refined, very heavy and has an auto gearbox.
Think back to Top gear when they tested the 510bhp M6, 380bhp V8 Vantage and a 350bhp Carrera - the low powered 997 whooped them by 20 seconds over a timed run on a mountain road.
The bm weighs 50% more than the bimmer hence the speed of the 997 as its power to weight is similar, but its agility better.
Ignoring the above the primary concern at the moment should be depreciation risk and I suspect there will be a few main dealer £20-£22k M5's kicking about by the end of the year.
Bennno
as for your power to eight comments, the M5 has an advantage of about 15 bhp/tonne.Think back to Top gear when they tested the 510bhp M6, 380bhp V8 Vantage and a 350bhp Carrera - the low powered 997 whooped them by 20 seconds over a timed run on a mountain road.
The bm weighs 50% more than the bimmer hence the speed of the 997 as its power to weight is similar, but its agility better.
Ignoring the above the primary concern at the moment should be depreciation risk and I suspect there will be a few main dealer £20-£22k M5's kicking about by the end of the year.
Bennno
Edited by bennno on Monday 5th January 23:50
dubbs said:
lambo_xx said:
Well i haven't driven then new M3 but from what's I've heard it's good. I have however driven the M5 and the M6 and would not recommend them. I personally just couldn't live with their gearboxes. I genuinely thought they were absolutely terrible. it's a shame because they aren't bad cars but the gearbox really lets them down. I also didn't actually find them that exciting to drive. Well perhaps that's unfair. I didn't think they were any different to a normal 5 series UNLESS you are absolutely thrashing the pants off it.
I would tell your friend to go test drive them both, personally though i would go for the M3.
Interesting that you found the M5 and M6 no different to a normal 5 series... that just doesn't make any sense. The M5 and M6 both drive differently... did you just drive the M5 or did you not get a decent drive in the M6?I would tell your friend to go test drive them both, personally though i would go for the M3.
Gearbox... yep some that are really used to manual will never get on with them, it took me a good month or so to understand how to drive the car properly. Unlike DSG and the newer systems you need to alter your driving for SMG.. once you do it works well.
I do find it a shame that people immediately s
g off the SMG box in the CSL/M5/M6 but have never really spent any time with it to alter their driving style to suit. We all do it for the way a car handles, brakes, etc., but when it comes to changing gear it seems people aren't prepared to give it time to learn how to get the best from it.I understand what you mean though about the gearbox, maybe if you had it for a month or two you would get used to it. At the time though that I drove it, I just wouldn't have paid out that much money for a car I didn't like in the hope I eventually got used to the gearbox.
Also I genuinely didn't think it was as fast as everyone made out. Now I'm not saying it is slow, it obviously isn't, but it didn't feel as though it had a 5.0 V10. The 911 is a far better car for that type of money, but obviously if you have a family it isn't always a practical solution.
That's why if it were me in this situation then i would be likely to go for the M3.
I had a test drive in the M6 with a salesman (it didn't have road tax at the time and there was some problem with me driving it alone with trade plates, apparently)so granted i didn't get to really put the car through it's paces. I did however get the M5 for a weekend and got to, shall we say use it as it was intended
. If you're in this position and don't buy an M6 you will be hunted down, vivisected and then dermed by taxi.
Sure, the 'box was conceived during a p1ss up in Asgard but for smiting false prophets and decievers only a GT2 romps harder and faster.
As an ownership proposition it renders the general 911 precept almost one dimensional.
Sure, the 'box was conceived during a p1ss up in Asgard but for smiting false prophets and decievers only a GT2 romps harder and faster.
As an ownership proposition it renders the general 911 precept almost one dimensional.
lambo_xx said:
dubbs said:
lambo_xx said:
Well i haven't driven then new M3 but from what's I've heard it's good. I have however driven the M5 and the M6 and would not recommend them. I personally just couldn't live with their gearboxes. I genuinely thought they were absolutely terrible. it's a shame because they aren't bad cars but the gearbox really lets them down. I also didn't actually find them that exciting to drive. Well perhaps that's unfair. I didn't think they were any different to a normal 5 series UNLESS you are absolutely thrashing the pants off it.
I would tell your friend to go test drive them both, personally though i would go for the M3.
Interesting that you found the M5 and M6 no different to a normal 5 series... that just doesn't make any sense. The M5 and M6 both drive differently... did you just drive the M5 or did you not get a decent drive in the M6?I would tell your friend to go test drive them both, personally though i would go for the M3.
Gearbox... yep some that are really used to manual will never get on with them, it took me a good month or so to understand how to drive the car properly. Unlike DSG and the newer systems you need to alter your driving for SMG.. once you do it works well.
I do find it a shame that people immediately s
g off the SMG box in the CSL/M5/M6 but have never really spent any time with it to alter their driving style to suit. We all do it for the way a car handles, brakes, etc., but when it comes to changing gear it seems people aren't prepared to give it time to learn how to get the best from it.I understand what you mean though about the gearbox, maybe if you had it for a month or two you would get used to it. At the time though that I drove it, I just wouldn't have paid out that much money for a car I didn't like in the hope I eventually got used to the gearbox.
Also I genuinely didn't think it was as fast as everyone made out. Now I'm not saying it is slow, it obviously isn't, but it didn't feel as though it had a 5.0 V10. The 911 is a far better car for that type of money, but obviously if you have a family it isn't always a practical solution.
That's why if it were me in this situation then i would be likely to go for the M3.
I had a test drive in the M6 with a salesman (it didn't have road tax at the time and there was some problem with me driving it alone with trade plates, apparently)so granted i didn't get to really put the car through it's paces. I did however get the M5 for a weekend and got to, shall we say use it as it was intended
. derestrictor said:
If you're in this position and don't buy an M6 you will be hunted down, vivisected and then dermed by taxi.
Sure, the 'box was conceived during a p1ss up in Asgard but for smiting false prophets and decievers only a GT2 romps harder and faster.
As an ownership proposition it renders the general 911 precept almost one dimensional.
imho I think the opposite - ergo the base 911 renders a M6 one dimensional - the m6 is purely about horsepowerSure, the 'box was conceived during a p1ss up in Asgard but for smiting false prophets and decievers only a GT2 romps harder and faster.
As an ownership proposition it renders the general 911 precept almost one dimensional.
by comparison the m6 is ugly, heavy, doesnt handle as well, doesnt put its power down as well, has a clanky drone of an engine, a nasty gearbox, costs way way more to service and run, uses a ton of fuel, has no more space inside, will depreciate faster and is ultimately less special
check the old top gear video on youtube the 160bhp less 997S whooped a M6 over a country road by a very considerable time, their collective summary was the 997 was the best car
bennno
Why not go over to the dark side and buy an Alpina B5 or B5S. All the benefits of a 5 series saloon, faster than an M5, a supercharged V8, amazing diff, no BMW gearbox issues, better suspension, rare, but simple to get repaired / serviced.
http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/2206...
http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/2206...
bennno said:
imho I think the opposite - ergo the base 911 renders a M6 one dimensional - the m6 is purely about horsepower
by comparison the m6 is ugly, heavy, doesnt handle as well, doesnt put its power down as well, has a clanky drone of an engine, a nasty gearbox, costs way way more to service and run, uses a ton of fuel, has no more space inside, will depreciate faster and is ultimately less special
check the old top gear video on youtube the 160bhp less 997S whooped a M6 over a country road by a very considerable time, their collective summary was the 997 was the best car
bennno
Ugly = I know it's marmite - I've always liked 6ers so fine for me and quite a few others who have said how nice it is. I also have close friends who think its hideous by comparison the m6 is ugly, heavy, doesnt handle as well, doesnt put its power down as well, has a clanky drone of an engine, a nasty gearbox, costs way way more to service and run, uses a ton of fuel, has no more space inside, will depreciate faster and is ultimately less special
check the old top gear video on youtube the 160bhp less 997S whooped a M6 over a country road by a very considerable time, their collective summary was the 997 was the best car
bennno
Heavy = Heavier than a 911 yep. Heavy - not compared to the 5 it isn't.
Power down = complete crap, it puts it down amazingly well... a std 997 doesn't have half the challenge with its builder's butt hanging over the rear wheels and nowhere NEAR the horsepower... 997 TT is 4wd so again helped out...
Clanky drone = on startup yep it is bloomin' awful! When moving it sounds so much better than ANY 997 (inc TT) - no comparison this side of an AM on full chat. M6 sounds better than M5 too.
Space inside = complete crap. M6 has LOADS more space inside than a 997. I can fit 2 kids, wife and myself in the cabin easily, weekends worth of luggage AND the baby's buggy in the boot. 997? Not a chance of even getting the cabin comfy - I tried it so am happy to state as absolute fact
As for the rest of the tosh... well most of that is quite obviously porker fanboy statements. I LOVE Porsches but to say a bog standard 997 isn't going to be as special as an M6 is bloomin' laughable. 997TT - completely agree. Servicing is on par with 997. Gearbox is down to whether you are prepared to get used to it. Most either quote someone else because they've not tried it or spent 5 minutes with it so somehow think they're an expert.
After all that... 997S is a better track/B road tool for getting round the twisties, yes.
At end of day you choose your weapon appropriately. I'd suggest asking for one with a BMW badge on the front then buying something with Porsche one fails the objectives of the OP immediately :-P
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