335d vs 330d - Question for dxb335d

[noumenon]

Welshbeef said:

To the chap who said drifting the car round a corner was the quickest way round a corner. Take a look at F1 - when your in car vid following another and see what happens when your car drifts and the other has drive one car suddenly has a lot more car lengths in front (its not your car though BTW its the car in front).

Or failing that - have you ever heard Brundle talking about laps & the qualifying... loss of traction is the best thing for a slower lap be it bracking cornering or off the line.

Dont believe that meet me at a set of traffic lights you spin up your wheels and I'll race you to the ton. (assuming same Power to weight & driven wheels) you will lose and by some margin. For the best illustration of this watch F1 starts - those who bog down or lose traction vs those who get the perfect get away (with zero traction loss) they are some way ahead & can pass someone on the grid due to this.

Amazed you were not aware of this hopefully you'll change your xbox360 driving style and on road driving style and save £ on tyres and bushes and be quicker while doing so.

I'm not talking about tiff like oversteer. When a driver describes a car as "balanced" he means that he can control the rotation of the car from under to oversteer. Making corrections to help a car rotate is the key to getting good laps in. Few corners are perfect, so some correction will often be required.

Just to reiterate, when I say oversteer, I am not talking about powerslide like drifting.

[Welshbeef]

Neumonn - do you drive your E60 530d SE £10k around like you state?
I doubt hardly anybody does due to the risk of losing it causing damage to your & other cars, no real opportunity given congestion & unknown corner.

BTW - thats one hell of a good price for a 530d SE 2004 reg. 231bhp & 369lbf, you got big boy alloys on it or the std items (big boy meaning upgraded to M sport or the upgraded BMW SE rims)?

[noumenon]

Welshbeef said:

remember noone will ever drive their car like that on the road + its shows you how little there is in it between them when giving them the beans.

I agree with you there. The spread of driver ability is huge. The spread of quick car ability is much less pronounced.

[dxb335d]

noumenon said:

dxb335d said:

LOL.....

Same day, with the same driver otherwise i would not bothered mentioning it..... Also only 2 secs behind a E90 M3... Go eat ya shorts.


I grew up racing karts, i can go round a track very well mate.

Track conditions, car, car set-up, tyres, weather conditions are just a few examples of what can dictate how a lap can pan out and how to attack it.

Generally speaking, drifting the tail-end out around bends aint the quickest way to negiotiate a corner.

335d vs M3 is impressive. But isn't 2 seconds a lap about the difference between Ferrari and Force India in F1 (i.e. pole vs back)?

I didn't mean tiff style drifting, I'm taking about a few degrees to help the car turn. Same sort of idea as left foot trail braking into a corner to reduce initial understeer, but undertaken around the apex.

Oh yes, stock cars too. Tuned 335d would be closer i would imagine.

Welshbeef said:

noumenon said:

dxb335d said:

LOL.....

Same day, with the same driver otherwise i would not bothered mentioning it..... Also only 2 secs behind a E90 M3... Go eat ya shorts.


I grew up racing karts, i can go round a track very well mate.

Track conditions, car, car set-up, tyres, weather conditions are just a few examples of what can dictate how a lap can pan out and how to attack it.

Generally speaking, drifting the tail-end out around bends aint the quickest way to negiotiate a corner.

335d vs M3 is impressive. But isn't 2 seconds a lap about the difference between Ferrari and Force India in F1 (i.e. pole vs back)?

I didn't mean tiff style drifting, I'm taking about a few degrees to help the car turn. Same sort of idea as left foot trail braking into a corner to reduce initial understeer, but undertaken around the apex.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/topgear/show/powerlaps.shtml
Dub335 that article had lap times of 1min20secs for the M3 and 1min22 for the 335d & 335i not knowing the track layout lets use the Top Gear power lap times.

Now the M3 saloon does it in 1min 25.3 seconds the 535d 272bhp does it in 1min 31.8 seconds buts a much bigger heavier car more of a GT than a track car.
So lets look at the 1 min 27.5 second bracket... what cars do we have in there????
Porche 911 GT3
TVR 350C
DB9
Vanquish S
Evo X
911 S



With your F1 comparison firstly thats 2 seconds on an F1 lap with road cars like the 335d & M3 the lap time is going to be far far higher - didnt an F1 car do the Top Gear track in under 50 seconds?? and its not really a good track to show off the F1 cars real abilities. So 2seconds on an F1 car is a lot but for a road car its nothing - remember noone will ever drive their car like that on the road + its shows you how little there is in it between them when giving them the beans.

Interesting times there mate.

[emicen]

noumenon said:

dxb335d said:

LOL.....

Same day, with the same driver otherwise i would not bothered mentioning it..... Also only 2 secs behind a E90 M3... Go eat ya shorts.


I grew up racing karts, i can go round a track very well mate.

Track conditions, car, car set-up, tyres, weather conditions are just a few examples of what can dictate how a lap can pan out and how to attack it.

Generally speaking, drifting the tail-end out around bends aint the quickest way to negiotiate a corner.

335d vs M3 is impressive. But isn't 2 seconds a lap about the difference between Ferrari and Force India in F1 (i.e. pole vs back)?

I didn't mean tiff style drifting, I'm taking about a few degrees to help the car turn. Same sort of idea as left foot trail braking into a corner to reduce initial understeer, but undertaken around the apex.

noumenon is correct.

I raced karts for a good few years and the same applies with rwd cars on track, the fastest way round a corner is to trail brake and let the tail drift out to help turn in. This will give a faster corner entry than any no-scrub attempts.

[dxb335d]

Not wanting a tit for tat, but faster entry speed it may give you, but it could also lead to a slower exit speed.

Alot depends on all the factors i mention above, aswell as car, circuit and the drivers style.

To say it is the best way all of the time is pretty daft, even you should know that LOL.


Which karting class were you in?

[Boulder]

dxb335d said:

Not wanting a tit for tat, but faster entry speed it may give you, but it could also lead to a slower exit speed.

Alot depends on all the factors i mention above, aswell as car, circuit and the drivers style.

To say it is the best way all of the time is pretty daft, even you should know that LOL.


Which karting class were you in?

Other way round on the first count,it allows you to straighten the car up quicker and apply full thottle earlier.

[dxb335d]

Boulder said:

dxb335d said:

Not wanting a tit for tat, but faster entry speed it may give you, but it could also lead to a slower exit speed.

Alot depends on all the factors i mention above, aswell as car, circuit and the drivers style.

To say it is the best way all of the time is pretty daft, even you should know that LOL.


Which karting class were you in?

Other way round on the first count,it allows you to straighten the car up quicker and apply full thottle earlier.

So you rekon its a dead set way round every bend like that is it?

what a nutter....

Rolleyes.

[noumenon]

Welshbeef said:

Neumonn - do you drive your E60 530d SE £10k around like you state?
I doubt hardly anybody does due to the risk of losing it causing damage to your & other cars, no real opportunity given congestion & unknown corner.

Absolutely not. But I did drive my caged, turbo'd, MX5 like that on tracks like Snetterton, Brands, Rockingham, Silverstone, North Weald, Thruxton, Milbrook and the Nurburgring. I pay for instruction at every event I attend. I also still hire track cars to drive this way in. Everyone should pay for proper tuition and learn to drive at and over the limit. Makes me a much safer (and probably slower) road driver. I don't even claim to be any good when compared to instructors/racers, but I have certainly experienced driving the way I am talking about.

Welshbeef said:

BTW - thats one hell of a good price for a 530d SE 2004 reg. 231bhp & 369lbf, you got big boy alloys on it or the std items (big boy meaning upgraded to M sport or the upgraded BMW SE rims)?

Actually spotted a typo on there, I bought it this month, not Jan 08. The price is correct and was from a BMW main dealer too. The car has upgraded bigger/wider SE rims (124s I think?) and most of the better options (except nav). PM me if you're in the market for something and I'll give you the salesman's details, he's a very good/realistic chap.

[emicen]

dxb335d said:

Not wanting a tit for tat, but faster entry speed it may give you, but it could also lead to a slower exit speed.

Alot depends on all the factors i mention above, aswell as car, circuit and the drivers style.

To say it is the best way all of the time is pretty daft, even you should know that LOL.

Which karting class were you in?

Its not hard to see why people take umbrage easily with you dxb. You said in your post "generally speaking" and I too was generally speaking. I did NOT say that it was the case all of the time and on longer corners it would obviously make no sense to take this approach.

If you dont want tit for tat, dont be so condescending and make ridiculous statements like "even you should know that" when you have no idea who I am, or anyone else on this thread may be.

[JeffC]

I will be able to answer the o/ps questions soon, I had a 335d for 18months which i sold, it had a very strong map fitted and it really was balistically quick to the point of Rs4 quick, Ive just today picked up its replacement an E90 330D manual, which will be getting a strong map fitted in the next week or so, driving the 330d standard its not that exciting, its nippy and I much prefer the manual box!! Ive just done a 200 mile trip collecting it and the mpg compared to the 335d is amazing Ive got a range of 700 miles on the tank

I drove a 330d E90 that I had a strong map installed , this was just before i got shot of my 335d , we never had them side by side but bottom end they felt comparable but I noticed my 335d revved a lot stronger and performance was noticabley better top end of the rev counter and above 3 figures in favour of the twin turbo.. In the real world of day to day driving a drive in my pals 330d manual inspired me to change , the 330d is always 10mpg over the 335d and enough power to take swmbo on the school run

[noumenon]

dxb335d said:

Boulder said:

dxb335d said:

Not wanting a tit for tat, but faster entry speed it may give you, but it could also lead to a slower exit speed.

Alot depends on all the factors i mention above, aswell as car, circuit and the drivers style.

To say it is the best way all of the time is pretty daft, even you should know that LOL.


Which karting class were you in?

Other way round on the first count,it allows you to straighten the car up quicker and apply full thottle earlier.

So you rekon its a dead set way round every bend like that is it?

what a nutter....

Rolleyes.

Hang on, all I said was:

noumenon said:

A 'proper' driver will use lots of techniques to help the car along. A good example is using oversteer to help the car rotate mid corner (around the apex).

My point is that a skilled driver will have more techniques at his disposal to make the car go quickly. It's not the best way round every corner.

There are all sorts of techniques that help.

Holding the steering wheel lightly ensures bumps move the steering and not the chassis. That can be worth 10mph in some bumpy corners (e.g. high speed bend at North Weald).

Learning to relax your ankle only when ABS kicks in alows you to outbrake whar you'd achieve using ABS only. As demonstrated to me by an x-F1 test driver.

Or take something like the brake to throttle transition. In the words of Skip Barber:
"The length of the brake-throttle transition will affect how the car sets its cornering slip angle. A slow brake-throttle transition allows the reduction in braking effort to keep in sync with the changes in front-to-rear loading. These changing forces work together over time, maintaining (or at least not upsetting) the overall cornering balance of the car. A sudden, sharp reduction in the braking effort delivers instant cornering traction to the front of the car by suddenly giving all of the front tires’ grip over to cornering force. The car is likely to point aggressively toward the apex, increasing the car’s yaw angle. Sometimes you want this to happen, sometimes you don’t."


Plus lots lots more. There really is no substitute for lots of tuition with different instructors on tracks.

[dxb335d]

Thats all fair enough mate. But I find all that comes pretty naturally anyhow. I can appreciate though if it didnt come naturally and being told it and then putting it into practise would make you a better driver.

[squeezebm]

dxb335d said:

Thats all fair enough mate. But I find all that comes pretty naturally anyhow. I can appreciate though if it didnt come naturally and being told it and then putting it into practise would make you a better driver.

Carl you are a GOD

[dxb335d]

squeezebm said:

dxb335d said:

Thats all fair enough mate. But I find all that comes pretty naturally anyhow. I can appreciate though if it didnt come naturally and being told it and then putting it into practise would make you a better driver.

Carl you are a GOD

thanks calvin mate. How is the big old beast of an M///



Back on topic anyhow, 335d is quicker than a 330d 245.

But both cracking cars. I advise anyone to test drive both and then make a decision. Being politically correct etc LOL...

Really if you want the faster car then go straight for the 335d If you want a manual drivers car buy an elise LOL

[m12_nathan]

squeezebm said:

dxb335d said:

Thats all fair enough mate. But I find all that comes pretty naturally anyhow. I can appreciate though if it didnt come naturally and being told it and then putting it into practise would make you a better driver.

Carl you are a COCK

Agreed :P

[m12_nathan]

Welshbeef said:

Any loss of traction will result in a slower lap time.

You are, as usual, talking ste. Please tell me at what slip angle a tyre will generate maximum grip \ traction? Hint: It isn't zero.

[dxb335d]

m12_nathan said:

squeezebm said:

dxb335d said:

Thats all fair enough mate. But I find all that comes pretty naturally anyhow. I can appreciate though if it didnt come naturally and being told it and then putting it into practise would make you a better driver.

Carl you are a COCK

Agreed :P

Hope thats in jest mate....

actually, throwing toys out the pram now. Cya....

(No need for deliberate rude gestures towards another member, especially as its uncalled for)

[noumenon]

squeezebm said:

dxb335d said:

Thats all fair enough mate. But I find all that comes pretty naturally anyhow. I can appreciate though if it didnt come naturally and being told it and then putting it into practise would make you a better driver.

Carl you are a GOD

So, assuming you are that good and turn off DSC to enjoy true car control. You enter a corner, get into oversteer, apply lock but hit the lock limit before the slide has been corrected. So now the car is continuing to increase it's oversteer angle, but you're out of steering lock. What does your natural instinct tell you to do in that case?

[m12_nathan]

A 335d is the most wonderful invention ever, topping both the space shuttle and the wheel in the list of man's achievements. Better?