Tramlining E36 325
Discussion
Hi , new to this forum, Ive been looking for some information on tramlining due to larger than normal tyres on my 325 e36. I found this on the net would like comments on this and if anyone has done the Mod.
e36 Trammeling problem SOLVED!(281 views) (341 thread views) Message: ( Also has been referred to as tramlining )
The problem: Installing larger wheel and tire combinations up front can lead to a condition where the steering pulls in reaction to variations in the road surface. The wheel can feel heavy, and not return to center readily. The problem was quite pronounced on my 94' 325is after swapping the stock 15" wheels for 17 x 7.5 M-Contours with 235/40-17 Yoko AVS Intermediates all around.
M3's run these size wheels with no adverse effects, so what's different with their front suspension geometry? I checked the alignment specs between a 95' e36 and a 95' M3. Camber and toe are about the same, but Castor is about 3 degrees more positive on the M3. Hmmmm... I also ran across an old post from John Browne (Puget Sound BMW CCA) who suggested, "M3 upper strut bearing will reduce tramlining"
I bought two 95' M3 upper strut bearings (pn# 31 33 2 228 345) from Bavarian Autosport, $102 each. The center of each M3 bearing is offset toward the rear of the car by about 1.3 inches, inducing an additional 3 (approx) degrees positive castor. In other words the top of the strut is leaned back, about the same angle as an M3. Note here: 97' and up M3 upper strut bearings won't work as the centers are offset 1.7 inches back, AND 0.4 inches outboard, adding positive camber. (not desirable).
At the same time I installed Bilstien Sport struts, and Bavarian Autosport springs, 1.3 inches lower all around.
The results: Trammeling effect went away completely! Steering feels great at all speeds. Ride is quite comfortable for commuting, Amazing control, quick turn in, and just a touch of oversteer. High-speed stability is much improved too. Front-end geometry looks great, I can't see or feel any adverse effects.
I am quite sure that the trammeling was not cured by the lower springs and stiffer struts, because of the amount of posts I have come across complaining of the same problem in lowered e36's.
Tom Meyer
Austin, TX
'94 325is
tom@tmeyer.net
What you's think is it old news? or should i go ahead and get them?
e36 Trammeling problem SOLVED!(281 views) (341 thread views) Message: ( Also has been referred to as tramlining )
The problem: Installing larger wheel and tire combinations up front can lead to a condition where the steering pulls in reaction to variations in the road surface. The wheel can feel heavy, and not return to center readily. The problem was quite pronounced on my 94' 325is after swapping the stock 15" wheels for 17 x 7.5 M-Contours with 235/40-17 Yoko AVS Intermediates all around.
M3's run these size wheels with no adverse effects, so what's different with their front suspension geometry? I checked the alignment specs between a 95' e36 and a 95' M3. Camber and toe are about the same, but Castor is about 3 degrees more positive on the M3. Hmmmm... I also ran across an old post from John Browne (Puget Sound BMW CCA) who suggested, "M3 upper strut bearing will reduce tramlining"
I bought two 95' M3 upper strut bearings (pn# 31 33 2 228 345) from Bavarian Autosport, $102 each. The center of each M3 bearing is offset toward the rear of the car by about 1.3 inches, inducing an additional 3 (approx) degrees positive castor. In other words the top of the strut is leaned back, about the same angle as an M3. Note here: 97' and up M3 upper strut bearings won't work as the centers are offset 1.7 inches back, AND 0.4 inches outboard, adding positive camber. (not desirable).
At the same time I installed Bilstien Sport struts, and Bavarian Autosport springs, 1.3 inches lower all around.
The results: Trammeling effect went away completely! Steering feels great at all speeds. Ride is quite comfortable for commuting, Amazing control, quick turn in, and just a touch of oversteer. High-speed stability is much improved too. Front-end geometry looks great, I can't see or feel any adverse effects.
I am quite sure that the trammeling was not cured by the lower springs and stiffer struts, because of the amount of posts I have come across complaining of the same problem in lowered e36's.
Tom Meyer
Austin, TX
'94 325is
tom@tmeyer.net
What you's think is it old news? or should i go ahead and get them?
I'd also be interested to know if anyone has applied this same principle to an E46 with success.
Getting new tyres (and decent tyres at that) made a small difference on mine, but it still pulls and jolts to camber changes and the steering is still heavy at low speed no matter what PSI I run the front tyres on.
The heavy steering and inability to return back to straight of its own accord I can live with, but fighting a randomly kicking steering wheel and meandering car is bordering on scary at times when you are pootling along the motorway minding your own business...
(And before anyone tells me to replace the front arm bushes and indeed arms, it's been done...)
Getting new tyres (and decent tyres at that) made a small difference on mine, but it still pulls and jolts to camber changes and the steering is still heavy at low speed no matter what PSI I run the front tyres on.
The heavy steering and inability to return back to straight of its own accord I can live with, but fighting a randomly kicking steering wheel and meandering car is bordering on scary at times when you are pootling along the motorway minding your own business...
(And before anyone tells me to replace the front arm bushes and indeed arms, it's been done...)
Same as, I have an E46 325CI SPORT. Changed the front control arm bars, full wheel laser alignment. Swapped the two front wheels with Michelin Pilot Sport from my Goodyear Eagle F1, still no joy. The tyres did make a small difference, but it felt like it damped out the problem rather than resolve it.
I have 18's, 225/40 and 255/35.
I have 18's, 225/40 and 255/35.
Thanks for the posts guys. I'm running 235 40 17s on mine and it was a bit of a shock changing from my stock SE Alloys with it tramlining all over the place, but want so much to keep my MV's look so much better, Have you tried the M3 bushes yourself on a E36 325. seen a set on fleebay for 25 quid (powerflex eccentric wishbone bushes)what is the difference between the stock 325i bush and M3, i mean visually
yea, i have them fitted, (the power flex ones)
they are eccentric, so that means the hole in them os over to one side.
The wishbone in L shaped, with the bush on the end of the longest bit of the L, the 90' angle is under the car, and the short end connects to the wheel hub.
You fit the bushes to have the hole towards the outside of the car. Be careful, as i have heard reports that powerflex have L and R stamped on the wrong sides. either way, make sure the hole it towards the sill, and not the centre of the car.
Pulling the long leg of the L outwards pivots the wishbone at the 90' angle, and pushes the short leg further forward. this increases the wheelbase by about 10mm, giving you more caster / self centreing effect, and is about equivalent to the caster gain you get from the topmounts, but the topmounts are about 70 quid each, so a cheaper, and more effective way of gaining the same results.
With those size tyres, you can never totally remove the tranlining, but it'll go a good way towards it, and is a good step towards it handling like an M3.
they are eccentric, so that means the hole in them os over to one side.
The wishbone in L shaped, with the bush on the end of the longest bit of the L, the 90' angle is under the car, and the short end connects to the wheel hub.
You fit the bushes to have the hole towards the outside of the car. Be careful, as i have heard reports that powerflex have L and R stamped on the wrong sides. either way, make sure the hole it towards the sill, and not the centre of the car.
Pulling the long leg of the L outwards pivots the wishbone at the 90' angle, and pushes the short leg further forward. this increases the wheelbase by about 10mm, giving you more caster / self centreing effect, and is about equivalent to the caster gain you get from the topmounts, but the topmounts are about 70 quid each, so a cheaper, and more effective way of gaining the same results.
With those size tyres, you can never totally remove the tranlining, but it'll go a good way towards it, and is a good step towards it handling like an M3.
different compared to what?
There are 3 varieties on the e36, the regular ones, the M3 3.0 are the same shape (same geometry etc), but with bigger, longer lasting balljoints.
The evo wishbones are m3 3.0 style, with larger balljoints, but these have a little kink built into them, which removes the need to use eccentric bushes on them (as a result, the evo uses concentric bushes, as opposed to eccentric "sport" ones.
A nice midpoint is e30 steel wishbones, they are like the standard e36 ones, but don't have removable outer balljoints. This makes them slightly cheaper, slightly more rigid (as they don't have a rubber press in surround) and for the price/cost of getting a single outer balljoint removed and replaced, it's better to buy a complete wishbone with both an new inner and outer balljoint.
There are 3 varieties on the e36, the regular ones, the M3 3.0 are the same shape (same geometry etc), but with bigger, longer lasting balljoints.
The evo wishbones are m3 3.0 style, with larger balljoints, but these have a little kink built into them, which removes the need to use eccentric bushes on them (as a result, the evo uses concentric bushes, as opposed to eccentric "sport" ones.
A nice midpoint is e30 steel wishbones, they are like the standard e36 ones, but don't have removable outer balljoints. This makes them slightly cheaper, slightly more rigid (as they don't have a rubber press in surround) and for the price/cost of getting a single outer balljoint removed and replaced, it's better to buy a complete wishbone with both an new inner and outer balljoint.
yes, use your original wishbones for now, or if you have 60-70 quid going spare, you can get a couple of new ones.
If you are doing it yourself, do one side at a time, you might need to free the wishbone at the outer balljoint to get enough movement in it.
easiest way to free the outer balljoint with out any fancy tools is to undo the nut until it is flush with the top of the stud, then hammer it down nice and square so the nut protects the threads (or just get a balljoint splitter!)
you'd need to cut and drill at the old bush to get it out, you'll probably have a little sleeve left on the wishbone which you can cut with a hacksaw, and then remove the rest of the bush from the bush carrier. there is usually a metal sleeve around this, so make sure you get that out too.
getting the black bit of the bush in is tricky, use plenty of washing up liquid to grease it, lay it in the correct position (hole towards the bolt holes) and lay a bit of timber on top and whack it with a sledge hammer. after about 10 minutes, tears and tantrums, it'll go in.
purple bit onto the wishbone (it'll go over some of the "webbing" of the wishbone) and put a dab of copper grease into the grooves, and fit it.
Take your time to make sure you get things in the right way round, working under a car looking up, and then outside looking down will screw with your mind!
If you are doing it yourself, do one side at a time, you might need to free the wishbone at the outer balljoint to get enough movement in it.
easiest way to free the outer balljoint with out any fancy tools is to undo the nut until it is flush with the top of the stud, then hammer it down nice and square so the nut protects the threads (or just get a balljoint splitter!)
you'd need to cut and drill at the old bush to get it out, you'll probably have a little sleeve left on the wishbone which you can cut with a hacksaw, and then remove the rest of the bush from the bush carrier. there is usually a metal sleeve around this, so make sure you get that out too.
getting the black bit of the bush in is tricky, use plenty of washing up liquid to grease it, lay it in the correct position (hole towards the bolt holes) and lay a bit of timber on top and whack it with a sledge hammer. after about 10 minutes, tears and tantrums, it'll go in.
purple bit onto the wishbone (it'll go over some of the "webbing" of the wishbone) and put a dab of copper grease into the grooves, and fit it.
Take your time to make sure you get things in the right way round, working under a car looking up, and then outside looking down will screw with your mind!
bigedd said:
Note here: 97' and up M3 upper strut bearings won't work as the centers are offset 1.7 inches back, AND 0.4 inches outboard, adding positive camber. (not desirable).
Yes, they will. You fit the left hand one to the right hand side and visa-versa. This is THE way to improve on that front geometry together with the Powerflex eccentric rear wishbone bushes.8Tech.
8Tech said:
Yes, they will. You fit the left hand one to the right hand side and visa-versa. This is THE way to improve on that front geometry together with the Powerflex eccentric rear wishbone bushes.
8Tech.
I was going to get the top mounts as well, this expands my selection of parts is it ok to get a savaged top mount?8Tech.
It's usually caused by putting wider/lower profile tyres on the stock wheels. The best engineers in the world designed your wheel width/suspension settings for YOUR car. Mess with it without knowing what you are doing & it will all go horribly wrong. Trust me - I've been there many times in 35 years...
Edited by mikez328 on Monday 2nd March 12:00
mikez328 said:
It's usually caused by putting wider/lower profile tyres on the stock wheels. The best engineers in the world designed your wheel width/suspension settings for YOUR car. Mess with it without knowing what you are doing & it will all go horribly wrong. Trust me - I've been there many times in 35 years...
The stock wheels are not on the car, it has MV alloys and tyres same as M3, so changing the bushes and top mounts should in theory change the geometry to M3, and thus help the handling of the 325i which was set up for smaller wheels and tyres. I have spent some time looking at different methods to help the tramlining and this seems to be the logical answer I will try it out and if it doesn't work then change back no problem I'm not some stupid boy racer who will thrash the sh*T out of it and wrap it round the nearest lamp post had this car 7 year and wouldn't do anything that was detrimental to the car and myself, like my neck to stay in tacked for a few more yearsEdited by mikez328 on Monday 2nd March 12:00
Edited by bigedd on Monday 2nd March 18:53
TheEnd said:
getting the black bit of the bush in is tricky, use plenty of washing up liquid to grease it, lay it in the correct position (hole towards the bolt holes) and lay a bit of timber on top and whack it with a sledge hammer. after about 10 minutes, tears and tantrums, it'll go in.
Or just do what I did: Put the bush and carrier on the end of a trolly jack and raise it up to the car. The weight of the car will push it in gently.
8Tech said:
Yes, they will. You fit the left hand one to the right hand side and visa-versa. This is THE way to improve on that front geometry together with the Powerflex eccentric rear wishbone bushes.
8Tech.
Top mounts arrived today, one marked left the other right...... going to ask a stupid question now........ left or right from inside the car or at front looking at engine? and also when you switch the left to the right and vice-versa which way should the arrow point, going to do it tomorrow.8Tech.
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