Auto box fluid flushing/replenishment???
Discussion
Hi folks.
Just a quick one. I've spent an evening researching the ins- and outs of the 330Ci M sport auto, and I came across the following:
"Many BMWs have "sealed for life" automatic transmissions. Regardless of whether you have a full BMW service history, the dealer will never change the auto fluid. Many of these boxes are failing around the 120-150k mark - often well outside of warranty and to a cost of £3.5k plus VAT. A good independent or automatic transmission specialist www.fedauto.co.ukcan and will change the fluid for you (and any good BMW independents will recommend this anyway). This is commonplace in the US and means the 'box should last the life of the car rather than being the cause of it being written off. General advice is ensure the fluid is flushed out every 60k or more preferably at each Inspection II."
...on a site called 'HonestJohn.co.uk'.
As I'm looking at an auto 330Ci M Sport with approx. 100k on the clock, I'm concerned that a flush and replenishment might be prudent. Has anyone any more information about this and whether it's necessary? I don't even know if the 330Ci falls into this category of 'sealed for life' auto transmissions. So, if anyone knows, please do say...
Thanks,
John
Just a quick one. I've spent an evening researching the ins- and outs of the 330Ci M sport auto, and I came across the following:
"Many BMWs have "sealed for life" automatic transmissions. Regardless of whether you have a full BMW service history, the dealer will never change the auto fluid. Many of these boxes are failing around the 120-150k mark - often well outside of warranty and to a cost of £3.5k plus VAT. A good independent or automatic transmission specialist www.fedauto.co.ukcan and will change the fluid for you (and any good BMW independents will recommend this anyway). This is commonplace in the US and means the 'box should last the life of the car rather than being the cause of it being written off. General advice is ensure the fluid is flushed out every 60k or more preferably at each Inspection II."
...on a site called 'HonestJohn.co.uk'.
As I'm looking at an auto 330Ci M Sport with approx. 100k on the clock, I'm concerned that a flush and replenishment might be prudent. Has anyone any more information about this and whether it's necessary? I don't even know if the 330Ci falls into this category of 'sealed for life' auto transmissions. So, if anyone knows, please do say...
Thanks,
John
A few BMW's have this sealed for life nonsense. Of course it will drastically improve the longevity of the box as well as improve shifts, manual or automatic.
50k miles is a good time to do them, and every two years thereafter. Just use a good fluid, like royal purple or BMW's own. Sealed for life is just a money saver - for BMW.
50k miles is a good time to do them, and every two years thereafter. Just use a good fluid, like royal purple or BMW's own. Sealed for life is just a money saver - for BMW.
Be wary that often a fuid flush on auto boxes rarely changes all the fluid. in some cases its as little as 40%.
One place recommended on teh A8 forum I use is www.transcentre.co.uk in Chester who have a machine that will do 99% of the fluid. I believe there is a place down south with the machine as well.
The Audi boxes( ZF in reality) are the same, Audi said they were seealed for life, ZF recommend changing fluid, filter and o ring seal every 40K. There are a number of A8s that have suffered badly through this and these boxes are 2.5-3K to replace in an independant specialist.
There is actually a link in a BMW forum I saw of a guy who went to ZF in Dortmund and they did a full service for 400 Euros which absolutely stripped the box to bits. I'll seee if I can dig out the URL
http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/527361
Found it!
One place recommended on teh A8 forum I use is www.transcentre.co.uk in Chester who have a machine that will do 99% of the fluid. I believe there is a place down south with the machine as well.
The Audi boxes( ZF in reality) are the same, Audi said they were seealed for life, ZF recommend changing fluid, filter and o ring seal every 40K. There are a number of A8s that have suffered badly through this and these boxes are 2.5-3K to replace in an independant specialist.
There is actually a link in a BMW forum I saw of a guy who went to ZF in Dortmund and they did a full service for 400 Euros which absolutely stripped the box to bits. I'll seee if I can dig out the URL
http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/527361
Found it!
Edited by entwisi on Tuesday 24th March 08:07
Mmm, you'd risk paying 99 quid and getting god knows what sort of fluid change and potentially trashing a 2K+ box?
Seriously ( and speaking as someone who's box is currently being rebuilt completely at a cost of 2.5K ) its not worth it. And for ref mine isn't due to skimping on oil changes and is currently up for potential legal action so I'm not going into details here.
Seriously ( and speaking as someone who's box is currently being rebuilt completely at a cost of 2.5K ) its not worth it. And for ref mine isn't due to skimping on oil changes and is currently up for potential legal action so I'm not going into details here.
entwisi said:
Mmm, you'd risk paying 99 quid and getting god knows what sort of fluid change and potentially trashing a 2K+ box?
Seriously ( and speaking as someone who's box is currently being rebuilt completely at a cost of 2.5K ) its not worth it. And for ref mine isn't due to skimping on oil changes and is currently up for potential legal action so I'm not going into details here.
This is the answer you want. I'd leave the box well alone.Seriously ( and speaking as someone who's box is currently being rebuilt completely at a cost of 2.5K ) its not worth it. And for ref mine isn't due to skimping on oil changes and is currently up for potential legal action so I'm not going into details here.
I've never liked the sealed for life concept on autoboxes.
Persuaded my kid to visit a local auto-trans specialist to have his e36 autobox oil changed - sump off, drain all the oil inc torque convertor and transmission cooler/lines, new filter, joints and refill came to smidgen under £200.00.
Totally transformed (or returned to how it should be!) the shift change - really smooth now. Worth the cost I'd reckon.
Persuaded my kid to visit a local auto-trans specialist to have his e36 autobox oil changed - sump off, drain all the oil inc torque convertor and transmission cooler/lines, new filter, joints and refill came to smidgen under £200.00.
Totally transformed (or returned to how it should be!) the shift change - really smooth now. Worth the cost I'd reckon.
oktapod said:
Well. I bought the car, and it test-drove well, but the auto box is still the thing that niggles me... not that it has a problem currently. I guess some more pondering needs to be done...
i don't believe the sealed for life thing either - I'm sure I posted up some pics on here as a how too.....It is absolutely critical that you match the oil - with what was used from new
Found the last post I did when this suject came up
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
I probably fail at links again!!!
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
I probably fail at links again!!!
Update: I spoke to a specialist in Edinburgh (one of the only Scottish-based specialists in the federation list) and they're quoting around £100-£120 for an auto box service, including filter and oil, though it's not the complete flush I'd hoped for.
They reckon they get out between 5 and 6 litres of oil; is this enough? I guess this is the 'replacement by dilution' method I've read about. Having now driven the car, I reckon the box is in fine order currently, but I'd feel a bit better if I knew that the fluid was at least checked and replaced. Plus, it would give me feedback on the general mechanical condition of the box too.
I reckon it's a 'do I, don't I' style situation - but at least the option is there.
John
They reckon they get out between 5 and 6 litres of oil; is this enough? I guess this is the 'replacement by dilution' method I've read about. Having now driven the car, I reckon the box is in fine order currently, but I'd feel a bit better if I knew that the fluid was at least checked and replaced. Plus, it would give me feedback on the general mechanical condition of the box too.
I reckon it's a 'do I, don't I' style situation - but at least the option is there.
John
oktapod said:
Update: I spoke to a specialist in Edinburgh (one of the only Scottish-based specialists in the federation list) and they're quoting around £100-£120 for an auto box service, including filter and oil, though it's not the complete flush I'd hoped for.
They reckon they get out between 5 and 6 litres of oil; is this enough? I guess this is the 'replacement by dilution' method I've read about. Having now driven the car, I reckon the box is in fine order currently, but I'd feel a bit better if I knew that the fluid was at least checked and replaced. Plus, it would give me feedback on the general mechanical condition of the box too.
I reckon it's a 'do I, don't I' style situation - but at least the option is there.
John
I'm in a similar situation/mindset. The box on my 740i is in fine working order at 9 years and 120k but, to me, periodic maintainence should increase its life and would be a good thing to have done. At the same time 'if it ain't broke......' springs to mind and I don't want to have filter and oil change and end up causing (potentially big) problems. I plan on keeping my car till then end of its usable life which I would hope would be 3-5 years so I don't mind spending in the region of £200 to have the box serviced. Tis' a conundrum! They reckon they get out between 5 and 6 litres of oil; is this enough? I guess this is the 'replacement by dilution' method I've read about. Having now driven the car, I reckon the box is in fine order currently, but I'd feel a bit better if I knew that the fluid was at least checked and replaced. Plus, it would give me feedback on the general mechanical condition of the box too.
I reckon it's a 'do I, don't I' style situation - but at least the option is there.
John
richyb said:
I'm in a similar situation/mindset. The box on my 740i is in fine working order at 9 years and 120k but, to me, periodic maintainence should increase its life and would be a good thing to have done. At the same time 'if it ain't broke......' springs to mind and I don't want to have filter and oil change and end up causing (potentially big) problems. I plan on keeping my car till then end of its usable life which I would hope would be 3-5 years so I don't mind spending in the region of £200 to have the box serviced. Tis' a conundrum!
To me it's a no brainer - I'll explain why I think it isI really don't get this sealed for life thing - oil is oil and with heat cycles and shearing action it has to break down over time
My 740 had 90 odd K on the clock when I got it but the difference in change quality when I did a partial change was nothing short of amazing - I thought the change quality was good before
Dropping the sump gives chance to clean the magnets
Changing the filter improves the cleaning of the mix of old and new fluid
3 K later I did another change and I can say that it didn't improve the change quality at all but I did it for peace of mind and also cos having bought 25 L of fluid (shared between myself and a friend who has a 540) I had the fluid anyway.
I know people say modern oils/fluids are to a much higher spec but I typically buy my cars at around 5 years old and keep my cars between 5 and 7 years - I minimise depreciation and I look at every oportunity to minimise any excessive bills and a gearbox is one of those bills that leaves a bad taste in your mouth and is likely to be more than the value of the car.
PS I don't use long life oil in the engine either - just good quality branded oil and change it every 3000 miles - service lights end up getting reset every 3rd or 4th change - it works out the same as putting long life oil in the engine and changing it when the light tells you and I really can't accept that 2 years (only do 5K per year in the 740) 8 seasons is good for any oil
I’ve just had this very situation with my local independent this week.
I drove over to them and asked them to price up changing the oil in the Autobox, which they duly did – 1 hours labour plus, sump gasket and the oil at £10 litre – I had to point out that they needed to replace the filter also. He looks on the parts catalogue and says they don’t list a filter for the box, I said it must have a filter – all autoboxes have filters. So I’m now already suspicious that they have never done this before. He identifies an “oil carrier” – I didn’t check myself on ETK, so they order it.
They told me the box is sealed for life and didn’t need changing, I said I wanted it changing regardless as a preventative measure.
So I dropped the car off them still saying its sealed for life – and again I tell them I want it doing, explaining that it can only be a good thing to clean the sump out, replace the filter and replace some of the oil.
The next day they phone me up and say the whole gearbox needs to come out to change the oil, do I want to proceed? I couldn’t believe what I was being told – I said yes I know that in order to drain the converter out, you would need to remove it. I told them all I want is a clean pan, new filter and replace as much oil as possible. So I told them not to bother touching the box – I would do it myself or take it somewhere else who I know for certain has done it before.
When I pick up the car I asked them if I could purchase the gasket, filter and oil if they still had them. They bring the oil out (which was the correct Esso stuff in the blue barrel) and the “filter” – it was a big empty plastic box and it was obvious that it wasn’t a filter and sheepishly they admitted it was wrong - we looked on ETK and identfied the correct part a few pages past the "oil carrier".
So I’m probably going to do it myself, at least I get to inspect the oil and see how bad it looks after 93k miles.
I drove over to them and asked them to price up changing the oil in the Autobox, which they duly did – 1 hours labour plus, sump gasket and the oil at £10 litre – I had to point out that they needed to replace the filter also. He looks on the parts catalogue and says they don’t list a filter for the box, I said it must have a filter – all autoboxes have filters. So I’m now already suspicious that they have never done this before. He identifies an “oil carrier” – I didn’t check myself on ETK, so they order it.
They told me the box is sealed for life and didn’t need changing, I said I wanted it changing regardless as a preventative measure.
So I dropped the car off them still saying its sealed for life – and again I tell them I want it doing, explaining that it can only be a good thing to clean the sump out, replace the filter and replace some of the oil.
The next day they phone me up and say the whole gearbox needs to come out to change the oil, do I want to proceed? I couldn’t believe what I was being told – I said yes I know that in order to drain the converter out, you would need to remove it. I told them all I want is a clean pan, new filter and replace as much oil as possible. So I told them not to bother touching the box – I would do it myself or take it somewhere else who I know for certain has done it before.
When I pick up the car I asked them if I could purchase the gasket, filter and oil if they still had them. They bring the oil out (which was the correct Esso stuff in the blue barrel) and the “filter” – it was a big empty plastic box and it was obvious that it wasn’t a filter and sheepishly they admitted it was wrong - we looked on ETK and identfied the correct part a few pages past the "oil carrier".
So I’m probably going to do it myself, at least I get to inspect the oil and see how bad it looks after 93k miles.
eliot said:
I’ve just had this very situation with my local independent this week.
I drove over to them and asked them to price up changing the oil in the Autobox, which they duly did – 1 hours labour plus, sump gasket and the oil at £10 litre – I had to point out that they needed to replace the filter also. He looks on the parts catalogue and says they don’t list a filter for the box, I said it must have a filter – all autoboxes have filters. So I’m now already suspicious that they have never done this before. He identifies an “oil carrier” – I didn’t check myself on ETK, so they order it.
They told me the box is sealed for life and didn’t need changing, I said I wanted it changing regardless as a preventative measure.
So I dropped the car off them still saying its sealed for life – and again I tell them I want it doing, explaining that it can only be a good thing to clean the sump out, replace the filter and replace some of the oil.
The next day they phone me up and say the whole gearbox needs to come out to change the oil, do I want to proceed? I couldn’t believe what I was being told – I said yes I know that in order to drain the converter out, you would need to remove it. I told them all I want is a clean pan, new filter and replace as much oil as possible. So I told them not to bother touching the box – I would do it myself or take it somewhere else who I know for certain has done it before.
When I pick up the car I asked them if I could purchase the gasket, filter and oil if they still had them. They bring the oil out (which was the correct Esso stuff in the blue barrel) and the “filter” – it was a big empty plastic box and it was obvious that it wasn’t a filter and sheepishly they admitted it was wrong - we looked on ETK and identfied the correct part a few pages past the "oil carrier".
So I’m probably going to do it myself, at least I get to inspect the oil and see how bad it looks after 93k miles.
Take it to a Transmission specialist.I drove over to them and asked them to price up changing the oil in the Autobox, which they duly did – 1 hours labour plus, sump gasket and the oil at £10 litre – I had to point out that they needed to replace the filter also. He looks on the parts catalogue and says they don’t list a filter for the box, I said it must have a filter – all autoboxes have filters. So I’m now already suspicious that they have never done this before. He identifies an “oil carrier” – I didn’t check myself on ETK, so they order it.
They told me the box is sealed for life and didn’t need changing, I said I wanted it changing regardless as a preventative measure.
So I dropped the car off them still saying its sealed for life – and again I tell them I want it doing, explaining that it can only be a good thing to clean the sump out, replace the filter and replace some of the oil.
The next day they phone me up and say the whole gearbox needs to come out to change the oil, do I want to proceed? I couldn’t believe what I was being told – I said yes I know that in order to drain the converter out, you would need to remove it. I told them all I want is a clean pan, new filter and replace as much oil as possible. So I told them not to bother touching the box – I would do it myself or take it somewhere else who I know for certain has done it before.
When I pick up the car I asked them if I could purchase the gasket, filter and oil if they still had them. They bring the oil out (which was the correct Esso stuff in the blue barrel) and the “filter” – it was a big empty plastic box and it was obvious that it wasn’t a filter and sheepishly they admitted it was wrong - we looked on ETK and identfied the correct part a few pages past the "oil carrier".
So I’m probably going to do it myself, at least I get to inspect the oil and see how bad it looks after 93k miles.
Apparently changing it does more bad than good.
jamoor said:
Take it to a Transmission specialist.
Apparently changing it does more bad than good.
I've read that too - but I've rebuilt my GM autobox on the Dakar plenty of times and understand the importance of clean filtered oil going round it. So I would rather change it TBH.Apparently changing it does more bad than good.
I have a spare car now, so if it does pack up I will rebuild the bugger anyway.
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