First Bike - Advice Needed (CBR250 vs Ninja 250/400)

[BlackPrince]

OP: where is your commute exactly? Do you live in or around Toronto? If so a 250 is just fine imho but if not then yeah perhaps they can be a bit blowy in the wind (my old Vespa GT200 was scary on the hwy going 110kph if there was any sort of cross wind or trucks passing me but the Ninja 250 weighs a fair bit more than my Vespa anyway so will likley be fine)

If you live in the city, I think a Ninja 250 is great as you can pi55 about on it and be quicker than most cars (admittedly those cars really arent trying but still) .
There's a video of someone on the 401 near Pickering and he seems to do just fine. In fact I think at one point he absentmindedly drifts past 150kph and has to slow down in a hurry

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE6y55LAuJQ

re: 0-60 time I swear that an old issue of Visordown mag had Colin Goodwin testing a bunch of newbie bikes (BMW F650GS, Kawa 250R et al.) and I swear that the 0-60 time was around 5 secs but perhaps im wrong.

Ignore the big-penises on the board telling you to get a bigger bike - there's plenty of time to do that and imho, there's no greater pleasure to be had than spanking a big bike in the twisties. I'm proud to say that on the few twisty roads I found in Toronto, no one ever beat me on my Vespa, and it was utterly thrilling to have the twistgrip to the stop basically all the time [that says more about the talent of most Canadian motorcyclists than my skill but anyway].

I don't think its necessary to start small always but I do think its usually more fun. The way some people talk its as if only balistically powerful vehicles are 'fun' and if it doesnt have an insane power/weight ratio it isn't fun. Which is bks. Bicycles and skateboards are fun and they are slow as f**k, and the Ninja 250 will likely be a lot more fun than any of those!

Of course if you feel like you'd like more power the Ninja 400 or 650 are great bikes too and definitely beginner friendly.

The other "beginner" type bikes sold in Canada are:
Yamaha FZ6
Suzuki - GS500, Gladius, GSX650 and DR400SM (tho this might be a bit tall)
Honda: CBR125, CBR250, CBF600 and NC700 which is more of a scooter/motorbike hybrid imho
Then there's bikes that have around 50-70hp from Ducati, Moto Guzzi, Aprilia et al. but I won't bother going into those here

[Bob_Defly]

Thanks BP, your level headedness is much appreciated.

The way I figure it is, it's the wife's bike, I think either of the 250's will suit her very well. I'll ride it when I can, and if I get bored of the speed I'll either get something bigger or the caterham I've been after anyway.

[Bob_Defly]

If you're around TO, you'll have to pop in for a cuppa and some bike talk once I get it!

[Ruttager]

Bob_Defly said:

Thanks BP, your level headedness is much appreciated.

The way I figure it is, it's the wife's bike, I think either of the 250's will suit her very well. I'll ride it when I can, and if I get bored of the speed I'll either get something bigger or the caterham I've been after anyway.

Why not ask your wife what she wants? However, you've not really listened to any of the suggestions on this forum so I'm guessing it will fall on deaf ears.

As for the 0-60 on the 250r. Its about 6 seconds if you give it everything and I mean everything .

If its city riding then yes it will be fine but you take that thing on the motorway and your going to struggle. They only have about 25HP. If your a big fella then that power is going to be an issue. Hence the suggestion of some of the 600cc out there. The GS has around 55HP (the older single cylinder model) it cruises at 80 all day long and its a doddle to control at slow speeds. Its what I did my test on here in the UK and subsequently bought one as my first bike. It has bags of torque and loads of options for panniers etc. The engines are bloody solid as well. After 6 months I sold it as it was too slow and bought a Yamaha thundercat (another good bike but not so good on the city riding and slow speed manoeuvring)

But lets get one thing straight. We are not bashing the 250's they are good bikes if you fall into the kind of rider they were aimed for. My mate has had one for about 2 years now and he loves it. But his commute is the twisty back roads of Berkshire. However do your research, test ride some bikes, and find out what the wife wants (if it is going to be her bike).

[obscene]

Ruttager said:

But his commute is the twisty back roads of Berkshire.

I've got to find these...


In all seriousness having rode both 250's the Ninja is the better bike by a country mile if you do decide to take that route OP. As suggested, a low powered middleweight bike with a twin or something should fit the bill a bit better though.

[Bob_Defly]

Why on earth do you think I'm not listening? Look at the replies, from yes they are great bikes, to they are crap get a ducati monster, to get something 20yrs old and work on it!!

I just think the weight of a bigger bike might be too much for her. Plus it's our first one, so the lower cost of the bike, fuel, insurance, clothing and gear etc. will all need to be taken into the equation.

I'm not asking her as it's a surprise birthday present.

I agree though, in time I doubt it will be enough for me, but I have room in the garage for something else in time.

[Drek]

Just to add by way of convo rather than suggesting you absolutely must, my first bike was a Hornet 600cc after a long lay off after pranging myself on a 125. Quite happy with it to be honest and although it took an hour or two, you since get used to it quickly enough. The weight is a funny one, I find it's technique manhandling the thing when it's static rather than brute force and of course you won't notice it when you're up running. If you have to pick it up off the deck of course then that's a different matter!

Good luck with whatever you settle with.

PS. For some bizarre reason, I've started yearning after Harley Sportsters and those feckers really are heavy - 250 vs 185kgs!

[BlackPrince]

Ruttager said:

If its city riding then yes it will be fine but you take that thing on the motorway and your going to struggle. They only have about 25HP. If your a big fella then that power is going to be an issue.

In the UK whenever I've been there, I've cruised at just below 100mph with traffic. In Canada, traffic rolls along at a much more sedate 70-80mph (112kph - 128kph). If you go any quicker than that you're going to get pulled, and if you go faster than about 93mph you're going to fall afoul of a street racing law and get your vehicle impounded, so I think conditions are just different in the UK vs. Canada on the motorways.

I also think that those on this board who started on bikes >>250cc have a rather jaded view of them that doesn't fit in with that of most riders'. Its not as if the OP is talking about starting on the thalassemic CBR125 now is it?


Edit: Bob - where in Toronto do you live? I'll be back in North York visiting my parents the wknd of the 23rd and will be borrowing my dad's Suzuki Intruder and going for a spin with my mate on his Ninja 250. We can meet for a cuppa if you're free and I can give you a ride report then if you wish, esp considering I probably weigh more than you (about 215lbs right now)

Edited by BlackPrince on Sunday 10th June 17:49

[Bob_Defly]

I'm currently in Waterloo, but moving at the end of July towards the Grimsby/Stoney Creek area. PM me if you are going to be in the area.

[BlackPrince]

Bob_Defly said:

I'm currently in Waterloo, but moving at the end of July towards the Grimsby/Stoney Creek area. PM me if you are going to be in the area.

Will be staying at my mate's place in Hamilton the weekend of the 20th of July, will send you a PM when I'm there. Enjoy the bike if you get it before then and give us a spin on it eh? I promise I won't crash it :P

[Stumps690]

Hi guys,

I had the ninja for about 6 months, it was a great little machine for 30min blasts around town, anything more than that and it just became painful. Also having the full fairings with next to no weight meant that I was constantly being blown around by the wind/trucks, Add to that the skinny tyres that suck you into any ruts in the road = squeaky bum time.
Don't get me wrong it was great fun last summer - but I was glad to trade it in for a gsr600 which i am now classing as my first bike, it is perfect for me at 5ft'4 and weighing in at 10 stone. Not to quick that I'm going to kill myself but its got more than enough power to overtake most.

[Mario149]

Stumps690 said:

Hi guys,

I had the ninja for about 6 months, it was a great little machine for 30min blasts around town, anything more than that and it just became painful. Also having the full fairings with next to no weight meant that I was constantly being blown around by the wind/trucks, Add to that the skinny tyres that suck you into any ruts in the road = squeaky bum time.
Don't get me wrong it was great fun last summer - but I was glad to trade it in for a gsr600 which i am now classing as my first bike, it is perfect for me at 5ft'4 and weighing in at 10 stone. Not to quick that I'm going to kill myself but its got more than enough power to overtake most.

I would have thought that having full fairings would have made it better in the wind due to better aero no? My street triple definitely feels more susceptible to wind than my GSX650F did, but I could be imagining it

[Stumps690]

Mario149 said:

Stumps690 said:

Hi guys,

I had the ninja for about 6 months, it was a great little machine for 30min blasts around town, anything more than that and it just became painful. Also having the full fairings with next to no weight meant that I was constantly being blown around by the wind/trucks, Add to that the skinny tyres that suck you into any ruts in the road = squeaky bum time.
Don't get me wrong it was great fun last summer - but I was glad to trade it in for a gsr600 which i am now classing as my first bike, it is perfect for me at 5ft'4 and weighing in at 10 stone. Not to quick that I'm going to kill myself but its got more than enough power to overtake most.

I would have thought that having full fairings would have made it better in the wind due to better aero no? My street triple definitely feels more susceptible to wind than my GSX650F did, but I could be imagining it

It's the cross winds that I was getting blown around with, head down doing a ton no wind issues although the screaming engine wasn't that pleasant

[Mario149]

Stumps690 said:

It's the cross winds that I was getting blown around with, head down doing a ton no wind issues although the screaming engine wasn't that pleasant

Aha! I think I've worked it out:

<>

On a faired bike, if there's little cross wind, the flow over it is reasonably laminar. However, if ther eis a cross wind gust, the bike aero was not massively designed for this, so you get separated turbulent flow on the other side of the resulting in higher pressure and feeling like you're being "blown about" a bit.

On a naked bike, there effectively is no smooth(ish) laminar(ish) flow, it's all turbulent to start with. Therefore gust of wind will have less of an aero effect and you'll feel blown about less

</>

Above^^ caveated (sic?!) with the fact it's been 7 years since I studied any aero stuff, so it could utter rubbish

[BlackPrince]

Mario149 said:

Aha! I think I've worked it out:

<>

On a faired bike, if there's little cross wind, the flow over it is reasonably laminar. However, if ther eis a cross wind gust, the bike aero was not massively designed for this, so you get separated turbulent flow on the other side of the resulting in higher pressure and feeling like you're being "blown about" a bit.

On a naked bike, there effectively is no smooth(ish) laminar(ish) flow, it's all turbulent to start with. Therefore gust of wind will have less of an aero effect and you'll feel blown about less

</>

Above^^ caveated (sic?!) with the fact it's been 7 years since I studied any aero stuff, so it could utter rubbish

Brilliant but do you remember the Reynolds number that separates turbulent vs. laminar flow?

[Mario149]

No! <sniff> I used to be smart, but it all went downhill after I started work!

[off_again]

Bob_Defly said:

I don't want a 600CC bike as I'll probably kill myself on it and it will be too much for her as a beginner bike, IMHO.

They only go as fast as you want them to - its all controlled by you and if you dont want to go that fast, dont. I am a new rider too, but I went out and bought an 800cc bike (and now I want a 1200cc one!). I find that the bigger engine means its easier to ride. Planning for overtakes is easier, gaps are dealt with quicker and I can be out of "danger" quicker.

I know a couple of people on 250 and 400 cc bikes - they arent bad and it depends on what type of riding you are doing, but the 250 needs careful planning make progress on open roads and riding on motorways / freeways isnt going to be much fun. A 400 would be better and easier, but if there is no license restriction, go for the bigger engine, its usually smoother, simpler, easier and in many cases more economical too!

I am not recommending jumping on the highest power race replica that you can find, because its not going to be easy. But Plenty people do this and havent died, so its down to what you want and what type of riding you want to do. Around town / city, maybe a 250 or 400 is all you need. Dont know - your choice, I wouldnt though.

A recent pass friend of mine was going to go for a 250 too - told her to test a 600 just to see. Guess what? Went out and bought a Honda 600 Hornet - nice bike and she's well happy. BUT doesnt ride like a speed freak.

[Yazza54]

600 isn't too much and would be a much better tool for the job


400 wise I wouldn't bother with anything other than a VFR/RVF400

Edited by Yazza54 on Wednesday 13th June 12:51

[BlackPrince]

I find it interesting that those who started on 600s (or 800 triples) are all for starting on 600s. You lot do realize you're biased and that there's people out there who start on 1000s who say that its "fine" to start on a 1000 right? In theory anyone can start on a 600 or a 1000 or the new ZZR1400 and get to work and bike just find, life and limbs intact, but thats not really the point is it...

[BruceBogtrotter]

BlackPrince said:

I find it interesting that those who started on 600s (or 800 triples) are all for starting on 600s. You lot do realize you're biased and that there's people out there who start on 1000s who say that its "fine" to start on a 1000 right? In theory anyone can start on a 600 or a 1000 or the new ZZR1400 and get to work and bike just find, life and limbs intact, but thats not really the point is it...

I did my DAS course on a 600, as many others and have got a 500 (Suzuki GS500) as my first bike. I am short with short legs and struggled to fit on many bikes but am still more comfortable riding a 500 compared with a 250 say particularly on motorways etc.