RE: PH2 ridden: Zero DS

[Fleegle]

Calling a bike 'Zero' is not great by marketing standards, but maybe they are onto something....

[bass gt3]

Hooli said:

CBR JGWRR said:

bass gt3 said:

So whilst the running cost per mile may seem cheap, discounting the initial purchase price, how long do the batteries last before they have memory effect and hold less and less charge. If they're a readily available cell type, might not be so bad, but if they're bespoke, then what?
I seem to remember something similar about the Nissan leaf or its ilk and the batteries were something like 6000 pounds to replace?? Might of got the number wrong a bit but it was fecking steep.
So what happens when 33 miles range becomes 22 then 11 and it's then 3 grand for new batts? Not so cheap then possibly??

IIRC, they are good for a few 1000 charge cycles, but it has been a while...

So that's 40,000miles then it's fooked. About 1/4 (or less) of the life of any real engine, no thanks.

And what about ambient temps? do the batts last as long on cold days as hot? Seems like there could be a lot of variables involved.
Seems electric vehicles are here for now, but i really struggle to see the point. Heavy, limited range and they can't be so green?? Battery production isn't very eco friendly, nor disposal. Power stations for the elctric??
Hydrogen. 'tis the only way. Most abundant element in the universe, and by product is water. Even if it had a limited range compared to petrol, people would take it for cost, green credentials and no loss of performance.

[RumpleFugly]

And how do you plan to produce the hydrogen?

Electrolysis, using power... From a power station.. Oh...

[bass gt3]

RumpleFugly said:

And how do you plan to produce the hydrogen?

Electrolysis, using power... From a power station.. Oh...

FFS man!! Don't be thinking i've thought this through!!
But on the serious side, a saw a thing where they were putting Hydrogen filling stations through one of the Nordic countries as a trial. yes, production of hydrogen takes power, but less than producing batteries when you consider the mining and refining of the metals. Very messy business, i see it first hand.

[Fleegle]

Batteries....Messy and (enviro) costly to produce, very enviro unfriendly to dispose of

This is where hydrogen wins

[Pothole]

"5p at night on economy seven" The clue is in the name. You won't get 9 hours of charge at economy 7 rates.

Too expensive, too slow, too slow to charge, hideously ugly, crap name. NEXT!!!

[RumpleFugly]

I know, I know, everyone, including me, loves a good IC engine. It's what we know and love.

I guess it's the engineer in me loving the limitless possibilities of a fully electric drivetrain. Not restricted by throttles, valves and and all that internal friction, throttle response will be immense with just a motor and direct drive.

[bass gt3]

RumpleFugly said:

I know, I know, everyone, including me, loves a good IC engine. It's what we know and love.

I guess it's the engineer in me loving the limitless possibilities of a fully electric drivetrain. Not restricted by throttles, valves and and all that internal friction, throttle response will be immense with just a motor and direct drive.

I absolutely agree. But i reckon we'll get closer to a workable hydrogen solution before batteries become small and light enough, with sufficient range to be viable.
as great as all this experimenting is, i feel batteries are the Betamax of the propulsion world...

[Pothole]

RumpleFugly said:

I know, I know, everyone, including me, loves a good IC engine. It's what we know and love.

I guess it's the engineer in me loving the limitless possibilities of a fully electric drivetrain. Not restricted by throttles, valves and and all that internal friction, throttle response will be immense with just a motor and direct drive.

It will be, and the concept is a great one. Its current execution, however, doesn't cut it AFAIC.

[RumpleFugly]

Absolutely, the current crop of electric bikes work for only a small niche of the population, the rich, urban, early adopter who cares not for design aesthetics

I just don't want the electric movement to be quashed before it can reach a mature stage and offer a genuine alternative to IC. It's all down to increasing the energy density of the batts.

[Pothole]

RumpleFugly said:

Absolutely, the current crop of electric bikes work for only a small niche of the population, the rich, urban, early adopter who cares not for design aesthetics

I just don't want the electric movement to be quashed before it can reach a mature stage and offer a genuine alternative to IC. It's all down to increasing the energy density of the batts.

It won't be. Relax.

[Hooli]

Fleegle said:

Calling a bike 'Zero' is not great by marketing standards, but maybe they are onto something....

I think I know why. Look at the facts...

They burn really well
They don't have the range to get home again

Remind you of another Zero?

[Prof Prolapse]

Fleegle said:

Batteries....Messy and (enviro) costly to produce, very enviro unfriendly to dispose of

This is where hydrogen wins

Despite top gear banging on about it I don't get the Hydrogen argument. Hydrogen requires an enormous amount of energy to turn it into a liquid. Then you've got to produce an a vehicle that can store it and store it safely.

The infrastructure alone required to fuel cars on hydrogen seems insurmountable and that's before you start the debate about which is more explosive to have in a vehicle. I really don't see this as a cheaper option and I think that's evidenced from the lack of hydrogen prototypes.

Seems like a dead horse to me.

[CBR JGWRR]

bass gt3 said:

Hooli said:

CBR JGWRR said:

bass gt3 said:

So whilst the running cost per mile may seem cheap, discounting the initial purchase price, how long do the batteries last before they have memory effect and hold less and less charge. If they're a readily available cell type, might not be so bad, but if they're bespoke, then what?
I seem to remember something similar about the Nissan leaf or its ilk and the batteries were something like 6000 pounds to replace?? Might of got the number wrong a bit but it was fecking steep.
So what happens when 33 miles range becomes 22 then 11 and it's then 3 grand for new batts? Not so cheap then possibly??

IIRC, they are good for a few 1000 charge cycles, but it has been a while...

So that's 40,000miles then it's fooked. About 1/4 (or less) of the life of any real engine, no thanks.

And what about ambient temps? do the batts last as long on cold days as hot? Seems like there could be a lot of variables involved.
Seems electric vehicles are here for now, but i really struggle to see the point. Heavy, limited range and they can't be so green?? Battery production isn't very eco friendly, nor disposal. Power stations for the elctric??
Hydrogen. 'tis the only way. Most abundant element in the universe, and by product is water. Even if it had a limited range compared to petrol, people would take it for cost, green credentials and no loss of performance.

After a bit of research, 6-7000 charge cycles is more common now, and up to 150,000 miles over 10 years.

(note: when I say a bit of research, I mean putting "automotive battery lifespan full electric" and reading through the 1st result, for about 10 seconds which happened to be wikipedia...)

[mat205125]

IMO, this is the most viable use of full electric power for road use in the near future. The performance of the electric bikes at the IoM TT each year never fails to attract my interest.

This bike is so close to being exactly what I need to commute on. I'm a 90 mile per day commuter in a car, so approximately £13-£15 per day in my diesel people carrier.

I think I'm just looking for the technology to become a little more proven and established, as the prospect of undertaking that commute each day for less than a quid is massively appealing.

I guess the ultimate proof of the technology will be for Honda to release a version .... My spec would be:

Sub £10,000 purchase.
150 mile range with lights on!
100mph max speed, with 0-60 in 5 secs ish (modest for a bike)
Battery and bike life expectancy of greater than 5 years and 100k miles (the latter is a tall order)

[ZesPak]

mat205125 said:

I guess the ultimate proof of the technology will be for Honda to release a version ....

true words!

mat205125 said:

Sub £10,000 purchase.
150 mile range with lights on!
100mph max speed, with 0-60 in 5 secs ish (modest for a bike)
Battery and bike life expectancy of greater than 5 years and 100k miles (the latter is a tall order)

With the new honda policy, warranties are 3 years for the new models (no max miles).

"lights on" is a must, as here on the continent, they HAVE to be on.

[andytommo]

y2blade said:

ZesPak said:

Yazza54 said:

y2blade said:

ZesPak said:

andytommo said:

Looks great. There needs to be more electric vehicles on pistonheads.

You waited nearly 10 years, only to propagate electric vehicles?

I feel violated somehow .

I wonder what his other two posts were.

Hopefully something to do with MX5s and going up the oxo tower.

I think the reason we stack up this many posts is because we keep on talking about useless stuff like this

How rude!

post number 4!-check out Jay Leno trying the Mission R electric motorbike. I think you might like it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyYAJgEblrA

[Jigsjigz]

Great idea poorly done and with that price tag... :\

[anonymous-user]

mat205125 said:

I guess the ultimate proof of the technology will be for Honda to release a version ....

Well maybe they soon will . . . !

Our little corner of the world had a modest bike show last weekend and Honda brought their concept electric bike which I think looked stunning. I hadn't heard anything about it until then and still have no idea of specs, etc., but the Honda dealer was talking about a 2013 release date for it.

[obscene]

I would be in line for one of those Hondas.