Sorry Sir, you must get off your bike to fill it!
Discussion
Hmmm well you have to get off the bike to pay; and teetering over to use a card operated pump is asking for a little slip on the diesel thats always present!
I dont see the problem apart from perhaps a bad appraoch technique by the filling station bod?
I personally never fill up straddling the bike; it's not that I can't; I'm 6'1" so any road bike I am feet flat on the floor; but I have had fuel surge back out of the tank a couple of tims in 36 odd years of street riding and I would rather not have unleaded flavoured gentlemans sausage and nuts when I get to my girlfriends house ;-)
Even bikes I have had with no stands (old school racer on the road stuff) I have leant them on the pump to fill up and pay..
I dont see the problem apart from perhaps a bad appraoch technique by the filling station bod?
I personally never fill up straddling the bike; it's not that I can't; I'm 6'1" so any road bike I am feet flat on the floor; but I have had fuel surge back out of the tank a couple of tims in 36 odd years of street riding and I would rather not have unleaded flavoured gentlemans sausage and nuts when I get to my girlfriends house ;-)
Even bikes I have had with no stands (old school racer on the road stuff) I have leant them on the pump to fill up and pay..
MrKipling43 said:
That's a bleve (boiling liquid expanding vapour explosion)as opposed to petrol fire. The heat from a nearby fire heats up the tanker, causing the petrol to expand in the tanker and vent off. As it vents off through a safety valve the level drops. At first the petrol is cooling the tank, but as the level drops, the tank starts to overheat, and eventually the tanker fails. Either way, a lorry full of mineral water didnt explode, or a lorry of milk.
If someone has paid out half a million quid for property and stock and staff and buildings etc, then I think they have the right to call the rules when selling sort of flammable liquid.
If you dont like it, open your own petrol station and hope someone doesnt blow it up
If someone has paid out half a million quid for property and stock and staff and buildings etc, then I think they have the right to call the rules when selling sort of flammable liquid.
If you dont like it, open your own petrol station and hope someone doesnt blow it up
londonbabe said:
I have always sat on my Thruxton and kept it upright to fill. I never assumed it would be a problem. Reading this thread made me curious and thanks to its existence I have now found out that apparently I can get more petrol in if I stick it on the sidestand.
Thanks, internet.
I'm sitting on my thruxton right now.Thanks, internet.
Rubin215 said:
Petrol does not burn.
Wood does not burn.
What burns are the gasses that these substances give off when heated to a certain temperature.
With petrol this is -43 Centigrade, with wood it is about 300 centigrade; anything above this and all you need is a flame and enough oxygen and it will catch fire..
Both substances can also be heated to a point where the gasses given off will ignite without a spark or flame being applied, this is the autoignition temperature; again, this needs enough oxygen for combustion to take place.
Petrol auto-ignites at about 280 Centigrade, less if it is compressed.
However, you can pour petrol directly onto any hot part of your bike and it will not catch fire as it evaporates too quickly for it to reach its autoignition temperature; the only thing likely to set it up in a ball of flame would be if your coils or plug leads were arcing at the same time.
You can also safely drop a lit cigarette into a bucket of petrol as the heat produced is too low to produce a flame; I have done it myself on many many occasions to prove the point.
Right result, wrong explanationWood does not burn.
What burns are the gasses that these substances give off when heated to a certain temperature.
With petrol this is -43 Centigrade, with wood it is about 300 centigrade; anything above this and all you need is a flame and enough oxygen and it will catch fire..
Both substances can also be heated to a point where the gasses given off will ignite without a spark or flame being applied, this is the autoignition temperature; again, this needs enough oxygen for combustion to take place.
Petrol auto-ignites at about 280 Centigrade, less if it is compressed.
However, you can pour petrol directly onto any hot part of your bike and it will not catch fire as it evaporates too quickly for it to reach its autoignition temperature; the only thing likely to set it up in a ball of flame would be if your coils or plug leads were arcing at the same time.
You can also safely drop a lit cigarette into a bucket of petrol as the heat produced is too low to produce a flame; I have done it myself on many many occasions to prove the point.
Edited by Rubin215 on Sunday 14th April 21:30
A cigarette is absolutely hot enough to ignite petrol, the reason it does not ignite the vapour when you drop it into the liquid, is that it is cooled very quickly and does not remain hot enough for a sufficient length of time to cause ignition.
Nigel Worc's said:
Well ....... that's the thing you see, our old prof said they weren't, and he was quite insistant about it.
Flammable is where the substance burns, inflammable is where the vapour burns, and I remember the example, don't ask why I just do, wood is flammable, petrol is inflammable.
Your old Prof was talking out his arse, or you're remembering it incorrectly. This is precisely why flammable and non-flammable are used these days.Flammable is where the substance burns, inflammable is where the vapour burns, and I remember the example, don't ask why I just do, wood is flammable, petrol is inflammable.
Conian said:
As a biker I understand, and I fill up the tank while stood over the bike, sidestand down but the bike very much upright, but:
Dear Manager, I was utterly livid today after a member of your staff tried to keep me safe during the dispensing of a flammable liquid. As a result, I rode off with my bike under-filled by possibly 100ml of fuel, which at 50mpg equates to an extra 1.1 miles.
Dear Manager, I was utterly livid today after a member of your staff tried to keep me safe during the dispensing of a flammable liquid. As a result, I rode off with my bike under-filled by possibly 100ml of fuel, which at 50mpg equates to an extra 1.1 miles.
I have to get off to pay anyway, so I usually get off, put the bike on the stand (I'm quite good at this as I do it every day), take my gloves off, then deal with filling it up at my leisure.
I've never felt an urge to stay balanced on the bike while filling up, I either want to be riding or walking, not balancing next to a petrol pump with my tank open...
Skyrat said:
Rubin215 said:
You can also safely drop a lit cigarette into a bucket of petrol as the heat produced is too low to produce a flame; I have done it myself on many many occasions to prove the point.
Right result, wrong explanationEdited by Rubin215 on Sunday 14th April 21:30
A cigarette is absolutely hot enough to ignite petrol, the reason it does not ignite the vapour when you drop it into the liquid, is that it is cooled very quickly and does not remain hot enough for a sufficient length of time to cause ignition.
Why doesn't the petrol vapour catch fire then?
The cigarette end is at a high enough temperature to set light to petrol vapour, however it does not produce enough heat (thermal energy) to do so as it is too small.
Heat and temperature are not the same thing.
Rubin215 said:
Sorry, but you are wrong; the falling cigarette will pass through the vapour before landing in the liquid so you can ignore any "cooling effect."
Why doesn't the petrol vapour catch fire then?
The cigarette end is at a high enough temperature to set light to petrol vapour, however it does not produce enough heat (thermal energy) to do so as it is too small.
Heat and temperature are not the same thing.
Well that's incorrect. Too small? Nonsense. The cigarette (which is not a flame) is not in contact with the vapour for sufficient time to heat it to its auto ignition temp. End of story. It's got nothing to do with its size. Hold a cigarette over a pool of petrol and see what happens.Why doesn't the petrol vapour catch fire then?
The cigarette end is at a high enough temperature to set light to petrol vapour, however it does not produce enough heat (thermal energy) to do so as it is too small.
Heat and temperature are not the same thing.
ETA, you are correct in that the transfer of thermal energy isn't sufficient, but it is not because the cigarette is too small.
Edited by Skyrat on Monday 15th April 23:23
My beloved Norton Commando burst into flame whilst I was riding it back in '76. I reckon one of the floats was sticking. The flames spread fast and pulling up from 60odd then getting off, without getting burnt to a crisp, proved to be quite difficult... "Do I drop it and risk breaking an arm or leg, or do I attempt to put it on the stand and risk being close to the tank when it blows..?"
I decided to come to a halt and try and lower it to the ground as quickly as I could without getting my leg trapped. Not as easy a manoeuvre as you'd imagine: The Commando was pretty tall and heavy with a high centre of gravity and lowering it quickly without getting tangled up, while the flames were blasting up my body, around my hands and into my face, whilst wearing an open face helmet, is an experience I still get nightmares about.
Nowadays, I always get off and put my bike on it's side stand before I start pumping. I don't ever want to risk being caught astride a burning bike again - petrol burns very fast.
I decided to come to a halt and try and lower it to the ground as quickly as I could without getting my leg trapped. Not as easy a manoeuvre as you'd imagine: The Commando was pretty tall and heavy with a high centre of gravity and lowering it quickly without getting tangled up, while the flames were blasting up my body, around my hands and into my face, whilst wearing an open face helmet, is an experience I still get nightmares about.
Nowadays, I always get off and put my bike on it's side stand before I start pumping. I don't ever want to risk being caught astride a burning bike again - petrol burns very fast.
Conian said:
If someone has paid out half a million quid for property and stock and staff and buildings etc, then I think they have the right to call the rules when selling sort of flammable liquid.
If you dont like it, open your own petrol station and hope someone doesnt blow it up
I must admit, if I ran a petrol station, I would make up some silly rules but only apply them to anyone I didn't like the look of. If you dont like it, open your own petrol station and hope someone doesnt blow it up
I was stopped yesterday by an attendant who told me that this was now a eurpoean law.
I was less than impressed.
We bikers get enough grief with our lids on having to take them off to go in and pay and now when you can pay at the pump they still want to mess you about.
Im not a moaner but for the love of god bugger off and leave me alone, I jus want to fill up and get a move on.
WHY OH BLOODY WHY!!!!!
I was less than impressed.
We bikers get enough grief with our lids on having to take them off to go in and pay and now when you can pay at the pump they still want to mess you about.
Im not a moaner but for the love of god bugger off and leave me alone, I jus want to fill up and get a move on.
WHY OH BLOODY WHY!!!!!
It's not European Law. It is recommended by PELG, (Petroleum Enforcement Liaison Group) however...https://www.energyinst.org/technical/distribution-and-marketing/filling-stations/pelg (click on the document link near the bottom of the page for their "Red Guide"
Their recommendation is as follows:
"20) Dispensing petrol into the tanks of motor cycles. There are many recorded
cases of fires having occurred due to the overfilling of motor cycle and scooter
tanks. Due to the close proximity of the tanks to hot engine parts and electrics,
petrol vapour has been ignited either immediately the tank has been overfilled,
or when the motor cycle is being restarted. The reason for overfilling can be
associated with the fact that the filling of motor cycle tanks is directly into the
tank and not via a fill pipe as with a car; having the nozzle placed into the fill
pipe of a car enables the cut off mechanism to operate before the fuel reaches
a level where it can be spilt; this is not always possible with the tank of a motor
cycle, particularly when the customer is trying to top up the tank, or during
times when the petrol has been adapted for winter temperatures and the fuel is
more volatile. In view of this, and also to avoid the contamination of customers’
clothing with petrol, the guidance is to not permit the filling of motor cycles
whilst the rider or passenger are sitting on them.
the guidance is not to permit the filling of motorcycles whilst the rider or passenger are sitting on them
However, the poor standard of training delivered to staff, their general stupidity and/or their inability to retain/regurgitate "complex and hard to understand rules and that" may lead to individuals incorrectly spouting b
ks about EU law etc.
Personally, I've never felt the need to try and squeeze an extra cupful of fuel into my tank...could I perhaps get an extra 3 miles before I have to fill up again? Hardly seems worth getting upset about.
Top thread zombying by the way!
Their recommendation is as follows:
"20) Dispensing petrol into the tanks of motor cycles. There are many recorded
cases of fires having occurred due to the overfilling of motor cycle and scooter
tanks. Due to the close proximity of the tanks to hot engine parts and electrics,
petrol vapour has been ignited either immediately the tank has been overfilled,
or when the motor cycle is being restarted. The reason for overfilling can be
associated with the fact that the filling of motor cycle tanks is directly into the
tank and not via a fill pipe as with a car; having the nozzle placed into the fill
pipe of a car enables the cut off mechanism to operate before the fuel reaches
a level where it can be spilt; this is not always possible with the tank of a motor
cycle, particularly when the customer is trying to top up the tank, or during
times when the petrol has been adapted for winter temperatures and the fuel is
more volatile. In view of this, and also to avoid the contamination of customers’
clothing with petrol, the guidance is to not permit the filling of motor cycles
whilst the rider or passenger are sitting on them.
the guidance is not to permit the filling of motorcycles whilst the rider or passenger are sitting on them
However, the poor standard of training delivered to staff, their general stupidity and/or their inability to retain/regurgitate "complex and hard to understand rules and that" may lead to individuals incorrectly spouting b
ks about EU law etc.Personally, I've never felt the need to try and squeeze an extra cupful of fuel into my tank...could I perhaps get an extra 3 miles before I have to fill up again? Hardly seems worth getting upset about.
Top thread zombying by the way!
Years ago I learnt how to do fire eating and fire breathing, fun day, looked impressive and thought it would impress the girls (Did until they found out you stink of white spirits afterwards).
We were taught to use white spirits of paraffin, NEVER Petrol. To fire breathe you spit a vapour cloud of the accelerant, in this case white spirit, which you then ignite with your fire stick. You don't use petrol as its vapour mixed with air vapour burns a hell of a lot quicker and effectively would explode in your face!!!
Yes the chances of a naked flame in a petrol station is low but hot surfaces (engine, exhaust etc.) causing spilt petrol to vaporise and then accidental ignition could produce a hell of a fire. If this happened I would rather be stood to one side and run than be sat on top of the bike and have to get off before I can get clear.
Also re. dropping a cigarette into petrol, it would probably pass through cold dense vapour and potentially land in liquid with little oxygen at its surface. Add oxygen (fuel spilt across a surface) and heat (reduce vapour density and increases oxygen content proportionally) and the petrol is more likely to burn. We were taught that a nearly empty fuel can left out on a warm day is more likely to explode if ignited than a full one, as the full one contains less oxygen and vapour.
We were taught to use white spirits of paraffin, NEVER Petrol. To fire breathe you spit a vapour cloud of the accelerant, in this case white spirit, which you then ignite with your fire stick. You don't use petrol as its vapour mixed with air vapour burns a hell of a lot quicker and effectively would explode in your face!!!
Yes the chances of a naked flame in a petrol station is low but hot surfaces (engine, exhaust etc.) causing spilt petrol to vaporise and then accidental ignition could produce a hell of a fire. If this happened I would rather be stood to one side and run than be sat on top of the bike and have to get off before I can get clear.
Also re. dropping a cigarette into petrol, it would probably pass through cold dense vapour and potentially land in liquid with little oxygen at its surface. Add oxygen (fuel spilt across a surface) and heat (reduce vapour density and increases oxygen content proportionally) and the petrol is more likely to burn. We were taught that a nearly empty fuel can left out on a warm day is more likely to explode if ignited than a full one, as the full one contains less oxygen and vapour.
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