Mito 443 Project
Discussion
Now that is stunning. If I had the talent to build my own bike, I don't think it would be much different to yours.
I have just read from start to finish(off work after an op, nothing better to do) loved it! Can't beat the noise of a 2T. Takes me back to the days of helping my friend with his YZ125/honda RS125 in his racing days. Loved standing in his garage after rebuilding the motor and sniffing the castrol R!
Massive credit to you mate, it is epic!
I have just read from start to finish(off work after an op, nothing better to do) loved it! Can't beat the noise of a 2T. Takes me back to the days of helping my friend with his YZ125/honda RS125 in his racing days. Loved standing in his garage after rebuilding the motor and sniffing the castrol R!
Massive credit to you mate, it is epic!
AdamIndy said:
Now that is stunning. If I had the talent to build my own bike, I don't think it would be much different to yours.
I have just read from start to finish(off work after an op, nothing better to do) loved it! Can't beat the noise of a 2T. Takes me back to the days of helping my friend with his YZ125/honda RS125 in his racing days. Loved standing in his garage after rebuilding the motor and sniffing the castrol R!
Massive credit to you mate, it is epic!
Thanks very much. I haven't looked through the thread from start to finish again to remind myself, but it's funny how I never intended to go this mad with it at first I have just read from start to finish(off work after an op, nothing better to do) loved it! Can't beat the noise of a 2T. Takes me back to the days of helping my friend with his YZ125/honda RS125 in his racing days. Loved standing in his garage after rebuilding the motor and sniffing the castrol R!
Massive credit to you mate, it is epic!
Glad I could provide you with some light reading!
Steve Bass said:
When you fit the new radmake sure air can't get between the sides of the fairing and the edge of the rad. Whether you use stick on foam or whatever, you must seal it up.
also, I was looking at my mates casings the other day and the feed from the waterpump is tiny, couldn't believe how small the orifice was. Did you open it up at all?? if not, have a look at it and see what can be done. alternatively, electric water pump and bypass the crap mechanical pump
As for the jetting, totally understand the desire for the 'hit' but you're alwways going to struggle with the non PV config and larger carbs. Considering the 350 LC ran 28mm carbs vs your 36's it's always going to be an uphill battle. But also have a look at the 'Boost bottle' solution. Won't be a panacea but deffinately helps. It's not for nothing every road 2T since the LC had pipes or such off the manifolds
mark the throttle with 1/4-1/2-3/4 marks and set the jetting based on holding the throttle steady at that position and jetting accordingly. By holding the throttle steady at these positions, you're restricting which jets are in play and then it's only the motors airflow thats determining how much fuel is getting pulled in. Then you can set the jets. But you MUST get the pilot right otherwisw everything goes cockeyed as each jet builds on the previous. So if you strar wrong, you stay wrong..
Not wishing to teach the sucking of eggs but just reminding
And i think i have the RS finally sorted and running well. Pulls hard from 8k and not too shabby below. Temps are more stable with the thermostat fitted as well
I just want to get a fairly steady AFR mate, it was all over the place. The characteristics after that will be what they'll be, but I can see it has potential. also, I was looking at my mates casings the other day and the feed from the waterpump is tiny, couldn't believe how small the orifice was. Did you open it up at all?? if not, have a look at it and see what can be done. alternatively, electric water pump and bypass the crap mechanical pump
As for the jetting, totally understand the desire for the 'hit' but you're alwways going to struggle with the non PV config and larger carbs. Considering the 350 LC ran 28mm carbs vs your 36's it's always going to be an uphill battle. But also have a look at the 'Boost bottle' solution. Won't be a panacea but deffinately helps. It's not for nothing every road 2T since the LC had pipes or such off the manifolds
mark the throttle with 1/4-1/2-3/4 marks and set the jetting based on holding the throttle steady at that position and jetting accordingly. By holding the throttle steady at these positions, you're restricting which jets are in play and then it's only the motors airflow thats determining how much fuel is getting pulled in. Then you can set the jets. But you MUST get the pilot right otherwisw everything goes cockeyed as each jet builds on the previous. So if you strar wrong, you stay wrong..
Not wishing to teach the sucking of eggs but just reminding
And i think i have the RS finally sorted and running well. Pulls hard from 8k and not too shabby below. Temps are more stable with the thermostat fitted as well
Edited by Steve Bass on Sunday 1st November 19:53
I'm not planning on doing much with it now until it goes back on the dyno, I just wanted to try it with those needles in, but sure enough they weren't a straight swap at the same height but it's promising that the needle height is making a difference as before it literally did f
k all it was that rich in the mid range. I haven't modified the cases at all on the water pump side, will look into that
I have been planning to speak to Harry Barlow @ pro porting who's done lots of work on custom boost bottles and the calculations to boot, to see what his thoughts are.
I do think to a degree it's irrelevant what worked on an LC, my motor is so far removed from that now. The guys in the US do run boost bottles on banshees but they're much bigger than the little balance pipe you get on a RD. I need to do some reading up on the sizing of them and see what's possible. From what I've seen this weekend I don't think the carbs are too big at all, it's all about the jetting. It's actually responding quite well to a handful of throttle now. Also bare in mind I'm still on a mega conservative ignition map. Can see us coming down on the mains too, but will leave that until I can see the AFR on the dyno.
Edited by Yazza54 on Monday 2nd November 07:43
Yazza54 said:
I do think to a degree it's irrelevant what worked on an LC, my motor is so far removed from that now. The guys in the US do run boost bottles on banshees but they're much bigger than the little balance pipe you get on a RD. I need to do some reading up on the sizing of them and see what's possible. From what I've seen this weekend I don't think the carbs are too big at all, it's all about the jetting. It's actually responding quite well to a handful of throttle now. Also bare in mind I'm still on a mega conservative ignition map. Can see us coming down on the mains too, but will leave that until I can see the AFR on the dyno.
Not saying the carbs are too big, but it's always a compromise with sizing. You could have used 30's for example and had excellent mid an low end response but strangled th e motor at the top. As the inlet diamter increases, the air velocity decreases so the fuel has less suction to pull it out of the bowl. Edited by Yazza54 on Monday 2nd November 07:43
Talking of which, make sure the float heights aren't too high. That'll keep the entire fuelling range overly rich which can be a pig to discover. Try taking the heights down a couple of mm and see if it improves, especially in the lower end. Then you can jet up the mains to compensate.
And rather than giving it big handfuls, see what happens on a steady throttle, at 1/4 then 1/2 then 3/4 and full. With a bit of load like a slight uphill you'll soon see if the respective jet zones are in the ball park.
And don't discount the LC architecture. Both piston ported with same crank timing and such. Only real difference is Bore & Stroke and a few ancilary components.
Also give EGT's in the pipes a serious consideration. Will tell you if you're heading in the right direction and if you need to change the jetting on any individual cylinder.
But keep at it, this is where the real fun begins
Yep, and the last thing I want is a motor capable of the power mine is producing being strangled by a set of small carbs. I'll be happy when I've got somewhere near the optimum for the spec I have. I know about the effects of carb size and it's positives and negatives, yet still went with the big boys so that says it all
To a degree I think you're taking what I'm saying a bit too literally, I've been out and tried it at various throttle openings, not just giving it handfuls like an ape, the point I was making was that it's getting much happier accepting full throttle which is a big positive.
Re the LC basic architecture maybe the same but everything else is totally different spec. Fair enough if an LC has a balance pipe that may mean it could work on mine but the actual sizing of that and is a totally different thing. My manifold does have an internal cross over, not sure how it would run with boost bottle and a cross over. All things to consider but there's certainly no saying that something that works on an LC will work on mine, hence I've spent more time trolling the banshee tuning sites which is essentially what I have in my bike now. I think I may find out the volume of a YPVS balance tube and pro rata that from 350 to 443. I don't think the internal cross over volume is as much as a standard 350 balance tube. Would be fairly easy to drill and tap the manifold to fit some barbed fittings and play with different pipe lengths. Funny thing is I've not really seen anything positive written on the banshee forums about boost bottles.
Lots still to do but good to have some direction.
To a degree I think you're taking what I'm saying a bit too literally, I've been out and tried it at various throttle openings, not just giving it handfuls like an ape, the point I was making was that it's getting much happier accepting full throttle which is a big positive.
Re the LC basic architecture maybe the same but everything else is totally different spec. Fair enough if an LC has a balance pipe that may mean it could work on mine but the actual sizing of that and is a totally different thing. My manifold does have an internal cross over, not sure how it would run with boost bottle and a cross over. All things to consider but there's certainly no saying that something that works on an LC will work on mine, hence I've spent more time trolling the banshee tuning sites which is essentially what I have in my bike now. I think I may find out the volume of a YPVS balance tube and pro rata that from 350 to 443. I don't think the internal cross over volume is as much as a standard 350 balance tube. Would be fairly easy to drill and tap the manifold to fit some barbed fittings and play with different pipe lengths. Funny thing is I've not really seen anything positive written on the banshee forums about boost bottles.
Lots still to do but good to have some direction.
Edited by Yazza54 on Monday 2nd November 12:33
Yazza54 said:
curlie467 said:
Looks fantastic, well done and fingers crossed you are heading in the right direction!
Do you know what the bike weighs?
Not sure mate could do with weighing it. It's got to be around 120kg Do you know what the bike weighs?
As a comparison, my race TZR weighed in at 115kg with 5 litres of fuel. The heavy bodywork had been replaced with lighter, the seat unit was omitted meaning all the heavy bracketry was removed, no lighting whatsoever, oil pump and any unnecessary covers removed, racing loom fitted saving 1.2kg.
It was the fat feck that sat on it that spoiled it all
Yazza54 said:
I will get round to weighing it, probs a bit more than that but not massively so. Would've been nice to hit 1hp to kilo
A couple of bathroom scales will be close enough.Easy weight saving are things like a tiny 12vbattery or a shorai type. But 2T's will fire with a very low voltage or straight off the generator when kicked.
If you're feeling spendy, ProBolt Ti bolts will save a bit, but anything around 120kgs in road trim will be superb
I am just thinking of the Banshees in the states where they were getting difficult to ride when the base 48 bhp was taken much above 80 and that was at the crank. I haven't seen all the mods you did no, but I would love to know how you more than doubled the rear wheel power of the 2 stroke twin, as a lot of friends with sand trikes and quads would love to do the same I am sure.
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