CBTand buying a Desmo
Discussion
Rawwr said:
graeme4130 said:
As much as the Desmo was seen as a ground breaker at the time, it's now a 10year old bike, and bikes have moved on so much in that time. A 1299Fe is most likely a much faster and easier to ride bike around any given circuit, and for the general rider, it'll be miles faster
To me, the D16RR is the F40 of the bike world. Even the baby Ferraris of today would clear off out of sight whilst the F40s turbos were still spooling up but, you know, it's an F40! All an F40 has to do is be an F40 and it's pretty much universally adored. Contemporary sports bikes would do the same to the D16RR but who cares? It's a Desmosedici RR and pretty much universally adored. F40's were raced based on a modified production car (LM for example) whereas the Demso wasn't, other than in GP on the bike it was based upon, not the other way around.
I love the Desmo's, but it irks me a little that 99.9% of them get wheeled out on sunny days, and never ridden within the window of pace at which they actually work. The last 2 I've seen on the road where at Biker cafe's and had 30% of their tyres unused by owners that seemed to just have them for posing.
I did see one at the track being used properly this year though, and the sound was something else
jamiebae said:
Certainly with cars a lot of the performance increase comes from tyres though, I guess if you put brand new performance rubber on the Desmo it wouldn't be far behind.
Sadly for the D16RR this isn't the case. Even in its hey day it wasn't particularly fast. The bike only makes around 155bhp on a good day as the airbox is a major restriction. The Bridgestone tyres were 7 shades of shyte but that's easily fixed with fitting 17's and decent rubber.
But fast and special aren't the same thing..... The chassis and components as well as attention to detail are still amazing to see and the noise, especially on the race pipes is epic. And there's the supposed exclusivity with only 1500 or so being made.
Would I have one in the garage? Yep, no doubt. Still a beautiful bike but don't get al rose tinted about the GP replica tosh. It looked like one, sounded like one but didn't go like one. But then again, road legal RC30's were poo in the power dept off the showroom floor. As were R7's. So accept it for what it is and enjoy.
But I suspect the V4R 1000 will be a serious piece of kit...
graeme4130 said:
I agree in part, but the difference between historic bikes and historically significant cars, is bikes are generally for riding, and a Desmo is a bloody awful road bike for anyone but the best riders. Also, the F40 is way more significant than the Desmo. It was the first car to top 200mph (although I understand it actually couldn't) and was the last car personally signed off by Enzo himself. The Desmo was based around the race bike, and produced by Ducati for the purpose of marketing itself as the producer of the 'GP bike for the road'
F40's were raced based on a modified production car (LM for example) whereas the Demso wasn't, other than in GP on the bike it was based upon, not the other way around.
I love the Desmo's, but it irks me a little that 99.9% of them get wheeled out on sunny days, and never ridden within the window of pace at which they actually work. The last 2 I've seen on the road where at Biker cafe's and had 30% of their tyres unused by owners that seemed to just have them for posing.
I did see one at the track being used properly this year though, and the sound was something else
I can't help but feel my point may have been missed, ever so slightly.F40's were raced based on a modified production car (LM for example) whereas the Demso wasn't, other than in GP on the bike it was based upon, not the other way around.
I love the Desmo's, but it irks me a little that 99.9% of them get wheeled out on sunny days, and never ridden within the window of pace at which they actually work. The last 2 I've seen on the road where at Biker cafe's and had 30% of their tyres unused by owners that seemed to just have them for posing.
I did see one at the track being used properly this year though, and the sound was something else
Rawwr said:
graeme4130 said:
I agree in part, but the difference between historic bikes and historically significant cars, is bikes are generally for riding, and a Desmo is a bloody awful road bike for anyone but the best riders. Also, the F40 is way more significant than the Desmo. It was the first car to top 200mph (although I understand it actually couldn't) and was the last car personally signed off by Enzo himself. The Desmo was based around the race bike, and produced by Ducati for the purpose of marketing itself as the producer of the 'GP bike for the road'
F40's were raced based on a modified production car (LM for example) whereas the Demso wasn't, other than in GP on the bike it was based upon, not the other way around.
I love the Desmo's, but it irks me a little that 99.9% of them get wheeled out on sunny days, and never ridden within the window of pace at which they actually work. The last 2 I've seen on the road where at Biker cafe's and had 30% of their tyres unused by owners that seemed to just have them for posing.
I did see one at the track being used properly this year though, and the sound was something else
I can't help but feel my point may have been missed, ever so slightly.F40's were raced based on a modified production car (LM for example) whereas the Demso wasn't, other than in GP on the bike it was based upon, not the other way around.
I love the Desmo's, but it irks me a little that 99.9% of them get wheeled out on sunny days, and never ridden within the window of pace at which they actually work. The last 2 I've seen on the road where at Biker cafe's and had 30% of their tyres unused by owners that seemed to just have them for posing.
I did see one at the track being used properly this year though, and the sound was something else
For the Desmo to be something special along the lines of an F40, it needed to go like the race bike it's designed to emulate.
If you want something that goes as well as the bike it's supposed to look like, you'd be much better off with an RC213VS, which in full race spec, is a truly special piece of kit.
The F40 is held in such high esteem as it was literally the best car of it's era (arguably better than the 959) and a game changer in the supercar world. The Desmo is a seriously lovely bike, but no game changer.
Saying that, I'd love to have one just to look at and soak in the details, but if I was buying a money no object bike, I'd buy a Honda, and if I was looking for the fastest and coolest road going Ducati to ride on the road, I'd have one of the SL series bikes, both of which are faster and more capable than a Desmo.
graeme4130 said:
Sorry, I did get your point, but I kinda skipped around it.
For the Desmo to be something special along the lines of an F40, it needed to go like the race bike it's designed to emulate.
If you want something that goes as well as the bike it's supposed to look like, you'd be much better off with an RC213VS, which in full race spec, is a truly special piece of kit.
The F40 is held in such high esteem as it was literally the best car of it's era (arguably better than the 959) and a game changer in the supercar world. The Desmo is a seriously lovely bike, but no game changer.
Saying that, I'd love to have one just to look at and soak in the details, but if I was buying a money no object bike, I'd buy a Honda, and if I was looking for the fastest and coolest road going Ducati to ride on the road, I'd have one of the SL series bikes, both of which are faster and more capable than a Desmo.
You're focusing on what they were designed to be and not what they actually are. Neither of them were designed to be or conceived of as icons but that's what they are, regardless of how they achieved that status.For the Desmo to be something special along the lines of an F40, it needed to go like the race bike it's designed to emulate.
If you want something that goes as well as the bike it's supposed to look like, you'd be much better off with an RC213VS, which in full race spec, is a truly special piece of kit.
The F40 is held in such high esteem as it was literally the best car of it's era (arguably better than the 959) and a game changer in the supercar world. The Desmo is a seriously lovely bike, but no game changer.
Saying that, I'd love to have one just to look at and soak in the details, but if I was buying a money no object bike, I'd buy a Honda, and if I was looking for the fastest and coolest road going Ducati to ride on the road, I'd have one of the SL series bikes, both of which are faster and more capable than a Desmo.
mckeann said:
It's an underpowered, overpriced bike. Things have moved on. Take off the rose tinted glasses. It's only in demand because people still woooo about the exclusivity and rarity and heritage. A ZX10R would be a far better ride.
Remember back on SELOC when MrDemon would post about his TTRS on every single thread and how incredibly boring and laughable it was?That's you, that is.
mckeann said:
It's an underpowered, overpriced bike. Things have moved on. Take off the rose tinted glasses. It's only in demand because people still woooo about the exclusivity and rarity and heritage. A ZX10R would be a far better ride.
Oh, does that make my ZX10R's iconic ?If so, I have my number 2 bike up for sale soon, and I'll ask £50k
It's got history too, as I once overtook Troy Corser on a R1M on it (admittedly, he was on dry tyres, and I was on wets and it was drizzling, but we'll skip over that bit
)
d 
BlackPrince said:
duggan said:
As for other bike makers, I will, like I have with cars, look and own others - but for me at the moment Ducati make the most beautiful bikes and in my eyes, the Desmosedici is still the greatest bike ever made (and it’s not even the latest), just like the Porsche 991 GT3 RS.
Have you ridden the RC213V-S?Edited by duggan on Sunday 19th November 19:16
I've very briefly and slowly driven a 991RS and a 997.1 RS and the 997 was tactile and feelsome (and im not even including the manual gearbox in my assessment) whereas the RS certainly accelerated quickly but was (relatively) leaden by comparison, though much more alive than its other 991 brethren
As for the 997/991 RS debate - don’t think you can really get any proper insight into the differences on a slow and brief drive. I’ve owned a 997.1 RS for a few years and loved the think - could be the best “value” car ever made when I picked mine up at the bottom of the market for £70k with 6k miles on it! Just did it all and the addition of a Sharkwerks exhaust made it sound like it’d just left the Mulsane.
Sold it to get into McLarens for a while, but now have seen the error of my ways and have owned a 991 RS for a year now. It just does everything right, speed, handling, noise, looks - the lot - and it should do as it cost a bloody fortune.
Really don’t get the argument about manual being better or more involving than PDK - times have moved on and I think the manual/PDK debate is a generational thing - the PDK is so good, I just don’t miss the third pedal at all! Still in the honeymoon period with it after a year, but look forward to every drive.
duggan said:
BlackPrince said:
duggan said:
As for other bike makers, I will, like I have with cars, look and own others - but for me at the moment Ducati make the most beautiful bikes and in my eyes, the Desmosedici is still the greatest bike ever made (and it’s not even the latest), just like the Porsche 991 GT3 RS.
Have you ridden the RC213V-S?Edited by duggan on Sunday 19th November 19:16
I've very briefly and slowly driven a 991RS and a 997.1 RS and the 997 was tactile and feelsome (and im not even including the manual gearbox in my assessment) whereas the RS certainly accelerated quickly but was (relatively) leaden by comparison, though much more alive than its other 991 brethren
As for the 997/991 RS debate - don’t think you can really get any proper insight into the differences on a slow and brief drive. I’ve owned a 997.1 RS for a few years and loved the think - could be the best “value” car ever made when I picked mine up at the bottom of the market for £70k with 6k miles on it! Just did it all and the addition of a Sharkwerks exhaust made it sound like it’d just left the Mulsane.
Sold it to get into McLarens for a while, but now have seen the error of my ways and have owned a 991 RS for a year now. It just does everything right, speed, handling, noise, looks - the lot - and it should do as it cost a bloody fortune.
Really don’t get the argument about manual being better or more involving than PDK - times have moved on and I think the manual/PDK debate is a generational thing - the PDK is so good, I just don’t miss the third pedal at all! Still in the honeymoon period with it after a year, but look forward to every drive.
Porsche's PDK, much like any of the other twin clutch gearboxes make a serious case for not needing a manual ever again. They're faster to change gear than even the best left hand, and they always make for quicker circuit times as it's also something else you don't need to worry about getting wrong.
Porsche are keeping an option on some GT cars to pacify the purists (and to make them look like they're listening to the market), but I can't remember the last Ferrari or Lamborghini that had the option, and McLaren haven't even bothered considering one since they've relaunched themselves in the last few years
Can anyone remember the last time a manual racing car won any sort of major event ? It must be 10 years ago at least if you exclude WRC
graeme4130 said:
People like the claim to prefer a manual over a Paddle shift, and I think it adds man points to anyone that moans about the death of the gear stick. However, you only have to look at sale figures to see that people are really only buying manuals in very small numbers, and many of the Porsche GT cars that are being spec'd with manuals are only being bought as such as people think they're going to hold their value as something rare and exclusive.
Porsche's PDK, much like any of the other twin clutch gearboxes make a serious case for not needing a manual ever again. They're faster to change gear than even the best left hand, and they always make for quicker circuit times as it's also something else you don't need to worry about getting wrong.
Porsche are keeping an option on some GT cars to pacify the purists (and to make them look like they're listening to the market), but I can't remember the last Ferrari or Lamborghini that had the option, and McLaren haven't even bothered considering one since they've relaunched themselves in the last few years
Can anyone remember the last time a manual racing car won any sort of major event ? It must be 10 years ago at least if you exclude WRC
When has WRC been manual in the last 10 years? Still an 'auto' but with a stick rather than paddles.Porsche's PDK, much like any of the other twin clutch gearboxes make a serious case for not needing a manual ever again. They're faster to change gear than even the best left hand, and they always make for quicker circuit times as it's also something else you don't need to worry about getting wrong.
Porsche are keeping an option on some GT cars to pacify the purists (and to make them look like they're listening to the market), but I can't remember the last Ferrari or Lamborghini that had the option, and McLaren haven't even bothered considering one since they've relaunched themselves in the last few years
Can anyone remember the last time a manual racing car won any sort of major event ? It must be 10 years ago at least if you exclude WRC
alistair1234 said:
graeme4130 said:
People like the claim to prefer a manual over a Paddle shift, and I think it adds man points to anyone that moans about the death of the gear stick. However, you only have to look at sale figures to see that people are really only buying manuals in very small numbers, and many of the Porsche GT cars that are being spec'd with manuals are only being bought as such as people think they're going to hold their value as something rare and exclusive.
Porsche's PDK, much like any of the other twin clutch gearboxes make a serious case for not needing a manual ever again. They're faster to change gear than even the best left hand, and they always make for quicker circuit times as it's also something else you don't need to worry about getting wrong.
Porsche are keeping an option on some GT cars to pacify the purists (and to make them look like they're listening to the market), but I can't remember the last Ferrari or Lamborghini that had the option, and McLaren haven't even bothered considering one since they've relaunched themselves in the last few years
Can anyone remember the last time a manual racing car won any sort of major event ? It must be 10 years ago at least if you exclude WRC
When has WRC been manual in the last 10 years? Still an 'auto' but with a stick rather than paddles.Porsche's PDK, much like any of the other twin clutch gearboxes make a serious case for not needing a manual ever again. They're faster to change gear than even the best left hand, and they always make for quicker circuit times as it's also something else you don't need to worry about getting wrong.
Porsche are keeping an option on some GT cars to pacify the purists (and to make them look like they're listening to the market), but I can't remember the last Ferrari or Lamborghini that had the option, and McLaren haven't even bothered considering one since they've relaunched themselves in the last few years
Can anyone remember the last time a manual racing car won any sort of major event ? It must be 10 years ago at least if you exclude WRC
Krikkit said:
For the last 10 years (at least!) WRC has been wheel-mounted paddle for gearchange, then a big hyd handbrake on a lever.
Once upon a time they were a sequential up/down via a lever, and not since the 90s have they been H-pattern.
There was actually a period of time when they went back to a lever for cost grounds, around 2011, but then came back to paddle shift again.Once upon a time they were a sequential up/down via a lever, and not since the 90s have they been H-pattern.
graeme4130 said:
People like the claim to prefer a manual over a Paddle shift, and I think it adds man points to anyone that moans about the death of the gear stick. However, you only have to look at sale figures to see that people are really only buying manuals in very small numbers, and many of the Porsche GT cars that are being spec'd with manuals are only being bought as such as people think they're going to hold their value as something rare and exclusive.
Porsche's PDK, much like any of the other twin clutch gearboxes make a serious case for not needing a manual ever again. They're faster to change gear than even the best left hand, and they always make for quicker circuit times as it's also something else you don't need to worry about getting wrong.
Porsche are keeping an option on some GT cars to pacify the purists (and to make them look like they're listening to the market), but I can't remember the last Ferrari or Lamborghini that had the option, and McLaren haven't even bothered considering one since they've relaunched themselves in the last few years
Can anyone remember the last time a manual racing car won any sort of major event ? It must be 10 years ago at least if you exclude WRC
Is faster better though? Where does it end? There may soon come a time where a self-driven car is faster round a circuit than one with a driver - Chris Harris even noted that on the 991.1 GT3, he didn't bother using the paddles as leaving it in auto was faster. Porsche's PDK, much like any of the other twin clutch gearboxes make a serious case for not needing a manual ever again. They're faster to change gear than even the best left hand, and they always make for quicker circuit times as it's also something else you don't need to worry about getting wrong.
Porsche are keeping an option on some GT cars to pacify the purists (and to make them look like they're listening to the market), but I can't remember the last Ferrari or Lamborghini that had the option, and McLaren haven't even bothered considering one since they've relaunched themselves in the last few years
Can anyone remember the last time a manual racing car won any sort of major event ? It must be 10 years ago at least if you exclude WRC
Racing isn't really a relevant comparison because if at some point, self-driving racecars become a thing, then there will never be a human Lewis Hamilton again at the highest levels, yet (presumably) humans will always want to do trackdays because its fun
That said, despite driving a manual car, I'm no manual apologist, or an antediluvian, but, definitionally a car with a third pedal, without TC, thats RWD IS more involving - it may not be more fun always because , the increased force g-forces permissible with increased speeds because of AWD/DCT/ESP can be more "fun."
BlackPrince said:
graeme4130 said:
People like the claim to prefer a manual over a Paddle shift, and I think it adds man points to anyone that moans about the death of the gear stick. However, you only have to look at sale figures to see that people are really only buying manuals in very small numbers, and many of the Porsche GT cars that are being spec'd with manuals are only being bought as such as people think they're going to hold their value as something rare and exclusive.
Porsche's PDK, much like any of the other twin clutch gearboxes make a serious case for not needing a manual ever again. They're faster to change gear than even the best left hand, and they always make for quicker circuit times as it's also something else you don't need to worry about getting wrong.
Porsche are keeping an option on some GT cars to pacify the purists (and to make them look like they're listening to the market), but I can't remember the last Ferrari or Lamborghini that had the option, and McLaren haven't even bothered considering one since they've relaunched themselves in the last few years
Can anyone remember the last time a manual racing car won any sort of major event ? It must be 10 years ago at least if you exclude WRC
Is faster better though? Where does it end? There may soon come a time where a self-driven car is faster round a circuit than one with a driver - Chris Harris even noted that on the 991.1 GT3, he didn't bother using the paddles as leaving it in auto was faster. Porsche's PDK, much like any of the other twin clutch gearboxes make a serious case for not needing a manual ever again. They're faster to change gear than even the best left hand, and they always make for quicker circuit times as it's also something else you don't need to worry about getting wrong.
Porsche are keeping an option on some GT cars to pacify the purists (and to make them look like they're listening to the market), but I can't remember the last Ferrari or Lamborghini that had the option, and McLaren haven't even bothered considering one since they've relaunched themselves in the last few years
Can anyone remember the last time a manual racing car won any sort of major event ? It must be 10 years ago at least if you exclude WRC
Racing isn't really a relevant comparison because if at some point, self-driving racecars become a thing, then there will never be a human Lewis Hamilton again at the highest levels, yet (presumably) humans will always want to do trackdays because its fun
That said, despite driving a manual car, I'm no manual apologist, or an antediluvian, but, definitionally a car with a third pedal, without TC, thats RWD IS more involving - it may not be more fun always because , the increased force g-forces permissible with increased speeds because of AWD/DCT/ESP can be more "fun."
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