MotoGP 2014 : Argentina ***Spoilers***
Discussion
egor110 said:
Do you not think the teams could sign lorenzo/pedrosa whoever but it would make no difference?
Marquez has pushed the whole game forward and the established riders are unable to compete.
Just look at his learning year in 2013 then this year he's toying with lorenzo then leaves him behind at will and lorenzo,pedrosa,rossi have no answers.
Hence why i think teams will be taking a punt on a younger rider because to spend s
t loads of money just to come 2nd or 3rd makes no sense when they can build for the future.
I agree with no-one getting near MM any time soon, however, I don't think manufacturers can afford to take a punt with younger guys over proven riders.Marquez has pushed the whole game forward and the established riders are unable to compete.
Just look at his learning year in 2013 then this year he's toying with lorenzo then leaves him behind at will and lorenzo,pedrosa,rossi have no answers.
Hence why i think teams will be taking a punt on a younger rider because to spend s
t loads of money just to come 2nd or 3rd makes no sense when they can build for the future.Take football for example; there is a far bigger pool of potential talent to pick from for one, and if your chosen one doesn't quite make the grade there are 10 other guys on the pitch that can carry him, that's not the case with bikes. Once he's out on track it's all down to that one rider.
I guess what I'm saying is that for bike racing, trying to nurture young talent for the future is a lot riskier than it is, for example, for football teams and so I think Honda/Yamaha etc are always going to go for the biggest stars they can get first and THEN think about the younger riders.
It's possible.
Fairly recently Doohan almost did it in 1997 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Grand_Prix_motor...
Rossi was not as close in 2002 but not far off - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Grand_Prix_motor...
Go back further and the likes of Giacomo Agostini and John Surtees did it a few times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giacomo_Agostini
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Surtees
there were others as well but some didn't do all the races, but won all the ones they did take part in.
Worth a bet.
Fairly recently Doohan almost did it in 1997 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Grand_Prix_motor...
Rossi was not as close in 2002 but not far off - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Grand_Prix_motor...
Go back further and the likes of Giacomo Agostini and John Surtees did it a few times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giacomo_Agostini
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Surtees
there were others as well but some didn't do all the races, but won all the ones they did take part in.
Worth a bet.
Johno said:
The reduction in fuel permitted is on thing that's hurting Yamaha this year and I think it would effect how the edge grip is on the Yamaha when the engine is lean and peaky and the relationship to the throttle isnt the same as previously.
But any move to another bike is a risk for both parties, he may hate the Honda or Ducati or Suzuki ....
i think when yamaha had the best rider(s) the fact the engine is an inferior racing engine (why would you design an engine that needs a far heavier crank and much bigger crank bearings ,hence more weight,and more fuel to turn it at a given speed ?) than a v4 did not matter.the combination of marquez and a well sorted honda has left them well behind. as a racer, the only thing jorge will be telling himself is he needs a honda and he will be sorted,but it will be in the back of his head,if he gets a honda and still cannot win,then he has no excuses.But any move to another bike is a risk for both parties, he may hate the Honda or Ducati or Suzuki ....
i doubt any of the top names would entertain suzuki unless desperate for a ride,i could almost see pedrosa retiring first. suzuki racing efforts are always half arsed,and the fact they have gone the inline four route just when yamaha,a far superior racing entity ,are struggling with it shows the usual suzuki ability of making poor decisions .they won,t ever pay the top wages required for the best racers,race engineers and electronics blokes that are essential today. as a big suzuki fan it is painful to say ,but if they return it will be similar to the last effort,a few half decent results,but mostly making up the numbers.
egor110 said:
Do you not think the teams could sign lorenzo/pedrosa whoever but it would make no difference?
Marquez has pushed the whole game forward and the established riders are unable to compete.
Just look at his learning year in 2013 then this year he's toying with lorenzo then leaves him behind at will and lorenzo,pedrosa,rossi have no answers.
Hence why i think teams will be taking a punt on a younger rider because to spend st loads of money just to come 2nd or 3rd makes no sense when they can build for the future.
er....Marquez has pushed the whole game forward and the established riders are unable to compete.
Just look at his learning year in 2013 then this year he's toying with lorenzo then leaves him behind at will and lorenzo,pedrosa,rossi have no answers.
Hence why i think teams will be taking a punt on a younger rider because to spend s
t loads of money just to come 2nd or 3rd makes no sense when they can build for the future.Honda want to come 1st and 2nd every race, as does Yamaha.
They have satellite teams to develop young riders unless they are super talented and get straight in after the rookie rule was thrown out - Marquez.
Having a winner and someone throwing it at the scenery, getting beaten up is not high on the agenda of the top teams - unless you are as gifted as a Marquez.
So I don't agree with you at all.
Also if you consider the fact as someone as highlighted very well, no one has the outright record of Marquez currently, although his brothers early stats are as good, he hasn't won anything yest and he's probably 2-4 seasons from a MGP ride even with that kind of record.
Miller is interesting as he has a good bike now and is proving his speed, but he has to to continue to prove it. As I said in the GP thread, I think we'll be talking about Miller and Marquez jnr for seasons and seasons to come.
In Moto2 at the moment I don't see anyone who I'd take up to MGP other than perhaps Rabat - although he doesn't have a face for PR work
. Vinales has the speed, but not the consistency yet. After those 2 I'm struggling to see anyone stepping up.DeAngelis, Kallio have both had their day in MGP. Luthi hasn't been there for a couple of seasons and this years injury has really knocked him it seems. Terol is going backwards after a promising 125 career. Simeon, Corsi etc don't seem to have the outright pace needed. Zarco is another one who doesn't perform week in week out.
Yamaha have taken a bet with Smith and Espagaro to see who will rise to the top, Pol will sort it out, but I'm not convinced he'll ever be with Marquez. He's shown blinding pace through his previous seasons, so perhaps he'll settle into it.
Maybe Bradl & Bautista's coats are on sugary nails, especially Bautista as the start to the season has been dire. Bradl needs to be more consistent in finishing in the top 5 with that package, Smith needs to be beating him regularly.
So Yamaha are devloping the young talent, Smith and Espagaro, so are Honda with Bradl and Bautista .... those are the seats most in trouble, I'd be surprised if Honda or Yamaha take anyone outside of the established 4 unless Suzuki or Ducati poach one of them.
I know Redding has the wrong passport, his record in 125's and Moto2 isn't a patch on Marquez, the best he could get was a production Honda with an option for Bautista's seat (looking more likely) for 2015. At lest some of the youth have the right passports, but which youth to develop do you think has the minerals for the top class currently?
Edited by Johno on Tuesday 29th April 08:50
jbudgie said:
I don't think that JL thinks it's the bike that's winning, so why go to Honda. ?
He knows it's MM and he knows that he cant beat him.
Remember back not long ago he tried to fight and failed when MM overtook him, now he just rolls over.
The day he admits that to himself is the day he's taking a pay cheque, avoiding crashing and finishing in the top 5.He knows it's MM and he knows that he cant beat him.
Remember back not long ago he tried to fight and failed when MM overtook him, now he just rolls over.
He isn't there yet as no racer at that level is, otherwise they couldn't do what they do.
I agree that what Lorenzo wants is a more competitive bike, he's said as much about his Yamaha. He will believe in his head that with a Honda he can take the fight to Marquez.
What's the difference between JL and MM... in JL's head it's the bike, anything else and he's a beaten man, I see him on a Honda next year.
Same as VR getting rid of Burgess, VR knows the bike is good (look at Lorenzo) and Rossi cannot doubt himself so what else could he change?
Other problem here is JL on his factory Yam is locked into the rules, so no engine development for him all year, so I guess all Yam's dev will go into the forward racing team, and if they take major strides forward throughout the year maybe JL will stay where he is, but if they don't he'll go.
Same as VR getting rid of Burgess, VR knows the bike is good (look at Lorenzo) and Rossi cannot doubt himself so what else could he change?
Other problem here is JL on his factory Yam is locked into the rules, so no engine development for him all year, so I guess all Yam's dev will go into the forward racing team, and if they take major strides forward throughout the year maybe JL will stay where he is, but if they don't he'll go.
Johno said:
er....
Honda want to come 1st and 2nd every race, as does Yamaha.
They have satellite teams to develop young riders unless they are super talented and get straight in after the rookie rule was thrown out - Marquez.
Having a winner and someone throwing it at the scenery, getting beaten up is not high on the agenda of the top teams - unless you are as gifted as a Marquez.
So I don't agree with you at all.
Also if you consider the fact as someone as highlighted very well, no one has the outright record of Marquez currently, although his brothers early stats are as good, he hasn't won anything yest and he's probably 2-4 seasons from a MGP ride even with that kind of record.
Miller is interesting as he has a good bike now and is proving his speed, but he has to to continue to prove it. As I said in the GP thread, I think we'll be talking about Miller and Marquez jnr for seasons and seasons to come.
In Moto2 at the moment I don't see anyone who I'd take up to MGP other than perhaps Rabat - although he doesn't have a face for PR work . Vinales has the speed, but not the consistency yet. After those 2 I'm struggling to see anyone stepping up.
DeAngelis, Kallio have both had their day in MGP. Luthi hasn't been there for a couple of seasons and this years injury has really knocked him it seems. Terol is going backwards after a promising 125 career. Simeon, Corsi etc don't seem to have the outright pace needed. Zarco is another one who doesn't perform week in week out.
Yamaha have taken a bet with Smith and Espagaro to see who will rise to the top, Pol will sort it out, but I'm not convinced he'll ever be with Marquez. He's shown blinding pace through his previous seasons, so perhaps he'll settle into it.
Maybe Bradl & Bautista's coats are on sugary nails, especially Bautista as the start to the season has been dire. Bradl needs to be more consistent in finishing in the top 5 with that package, Smith needs to be beating him regularly.
So Yamaha are devloping the young talent, Smith and Espagaro, so are Honda with Bradl and Bautista .... those are the seats most in trouble, I'd be surprised if Honda or Yamaha take anyone outside of the established 4 unless Suzuki or Ducati poach one of them.
I know Redding has the wrong passport, his record in 125's and Moto2 isn't a patch on Marquez, the best he could get was a production Honda with an option for Bautista's seat (looking more likely) for 2015. At lest some of the youth have the right passports, but which youth to develop do you think has the minerals for the top class currently?
Excellent post. The only rider I can see at the moment that can progress towards the top in MGP is Vinales, but that's at least two or so years away I reckon.Honda want to come 1st and 2nd every race, as does Yamaha.
They have satellite teams to develop young riders unless they are super talented and get straight in after the rookie rule was thrown out - Marquez.
Having a winner and someone throwing it at the scenery, getting beaten up is not high on the agenda of the top teams - unless you are as gifted as a Marquez.
So I don't agree with you at all.
Also if you consider the fact as someone as highlighted very well, no one has the outright record of Marquez currently, although his brothers early stats are as good, he hasn't won anything yest and he's probably 2-4 seasons from a MGP ride even with that kind of record.
Miller is interesting as he has a good bike now and is proving his speed, but he has to to continue to prove it. As I said in the GP thread, I think we'll be talking about Miller and Marquez jnr for seasons and seasons to come.
In Moto2 at the moment I don't see anyone who I'd take up to MGP other than perhaps Rabat - although he doesn't have a face for PR work
. Vinales has the speed, but not the consistency yet. After those 2 I'm struggling to see anyone stepping up.DeAngelis, Kallio have both had their day in MGP. Luthi hasn't been there for a couple of seasons and this years injury has really knocked him it seems. Terol is going backwards after a promising 125 career. Simeon, Corsi etc don't seem to have the outright pace needed. Zarco is another one who doesn't perform week in week out.
Yamaha have taken a bet with Smith and Espagaro to see who will rise to the top, Pol will sort it out, but I'm not convinced he'll ever be with Marquez. He's shown blinding pace through his previous seasons, so perhaps he'll settle into it.
Maybe Bradl & Bautista's coats are on sugary nails, especially Bautista as the start to the season has been dire. Bradl needs to be more consistent in finishing in the top 5 with that package, Smith needs to be beating him regularly.
So Yamaha are devloping the young talent, Smith and Espagaro, so are Honda with Bradl and Bautista .... those are the seats most in trouble, I'd be surprised if Honda or Yamaha take anyone outside of the established 4 unless Suzuki or Ducati poach one of them.
I know Redding has the wrong passport, his record in 125's and Moto2 isn't a patch on Marquez, the best he could get was a production Honda with an option for Bautista's seat (looking more likely) for 2015. At lest some of the youth have the right passports, but which youth to develop do you think has the minerals for the top class currently?
Edited by Johno on Tuesday 29th April 08:50
I don't really see anyone going anywhere next year except for a few satellite seats. If Dani bags second this year Honda will be happy and will likely keep him on. why hire Lorenzo when there is already a top rider and runner up?
We're only three races in so unliekly to know anything for ages.
I just hope Bautista keeps dropping it and they give him the boot and get Scott on that bike asap. what a waste of space.
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