2015 Yamaha R1 to come with DCT option

[legzr1]

Silver993tt said:

CT is much quicker than a 'quickshifter'.

If you were talking 3 seconds -vs- 3 nanoseconds you might have a point but on something like the BM or RSV4 you're comparing a split second with an even smaller split second.

Absolutely pointless (and this comes from someone that has always sang the praises of QS, ABS, TC, anti wheelie etc etc - I've lost the rear on a powerful 1000cc bike, tucked the front trying to trail brake and almost flipped a couple of bikes too - at no point have I thought "if only I could save 0.17 seconds on the shift from 4th to 5th" on a B road on a Sunday morning).

Looks to me like Yamaha pushing a USP that no one actually asked for

Lose 20Kg, add 20bhp and dump the fancy clutch/box

[legzr1]

Biker's Nemesis said:

I am lucky enough to get to ride everything. I just like Yamaha's. There's nothing in them for road riders going back 15 odd years.

Must help having a great local dealer as well.

[WaferThinHam]

Silver993tt said:

CT is much quicker than a 'quickshifter' which is simply a bolt-on to a standard gearbox. DCT also allows same quick gear change down the box unlike a 'quickshifter'.

Always the same when new bike technology is made available. The old school always slates it. Remember the ABS debate? How many were claiming they could out brake it? Hilarious and all proved wrong.

Maybe we should all be using no syncromesh and double de-clutching?

Given the cut time on an HM quickshifter is around 0.055 seconds, what improvement in speed does a DCT offer?

I'm all for new technology, I personally ride motorcycles for fun. To be, moving over to pushing a button to change gear removes some of that fun (as IMO that's where it'll end).

Even current WSBK bikes don't have to use the clutch going down with the modern autoblippers, so you already have the functionality of a very fast down shift.

Ummm, motorcycle gearboxes are constant mesh, so don't use a synchomesh. They're not like car gearboxes, which is why I don't really see how having a dual clutch gearbox will offer a big gain, but it would offer an increase in weight unless the two clutches are significantly smaller and lighter.

[bgunn]

Silver993tt said:

Maybe we should all be using no syncromesh and double de-clutching?

On a bike? But bikes have dog engagement gearboxes and never synchro

[ZX10R NIN]

legzr1 said:

You've met me - you should know I had to google the word 'style'

I ran away from Yamaha when the ZX10 was released in 2004 and haven't gone back (yet) - feck all to do with the 'styling', more to do with looking for a modern update on the ZX10 - mad, bad, a little unhinged and a belter midrange.
The new ZX10 is not that bike
1198 got close but not enough revs, Tight5's R1 was a little too bulky, S1000 - dare I say a little bland (but stupid quick at the top of the revs)?

What I want is a Honda V4 1000cc, weighing less than 180Kg fully fuelled, 150bhp is fine as long as it's smooth low down and has a monster midrange then Yamaha produce a competitor, add a little power, lose a little weight, steal aprilias aprc functions and shove it out for under £15K - then I'm off to Bells

Totally agree the 04-05 ZX10R is the naughtiest bike I have ridden I have recently purchased my old 05 bike & over the winter it'll be getting some upgrades to make it even better.

I have the new 10R (That was supposed to be the road bike but due to the fact it's so tiny for my 6'7 frame) it's now the track bike & the S1000 is now the road bike but it's not as exciting at lower speeds.

As for a 230bhp Cross plane crank R1 if it's anything like the current engine when tuned it'll empty it's bowls after 3000 miles

[Silver993tt]

bgunn said:

Silver993tt said:

Maybe we should all be using no syncromesh and double de-clutching?

On a bike? But bikes have dog engagement gearboxes and never synchro

Yes but the purists would surely want a redesigned box because double de-clutching is for real drivers/riders. all this modern synchro nonsense just removes one of the joys of changing gear surely?

[WaferThinHam]

Silver993tt said:

Yes but the purists would surely want a redesigned box because double de-clutching is for real drivers/riders. all this modern synchro nonsense just removes one of the joys of changing gear surely?

When did a motorcycle require double de-clutching?

I thought they'd be constant mesh sequential for a very long time.

[Silver993tt]

WaferThinHam said:

Silver993tt said:

Yes but the purists would surely want a redesigned box because double de-clutching is for real drivers/riders. all this modern synchro nonsense just removes one of the joys of changing gear surely?

When did a motorcycle require double de-clutching?

I thought they'd be constant mesh sequential for a very long time.

er, it was tongue in cheek

[WaferThinHam]

Silver993tt said:

r, it was tongue in cheek

I know. :P

Curious more than anything.

[spareparts]

The advent of double clutch gearboxes has little to do with time saved in performance really. It is a benefit in racing, yes, but it wasn't invented for that reason alone. The main reason is to avoid over-revving an engine, and extending durability of the transmission geartrain by eliminating the weakest part of the traditional clutch model that causes premature wear (failure leading to time expensive replacement), and the traditional clutch can upset the stability of the vehicle during operation (H&S playing a factor here in addition to performance): the human.

It was first invented and deployed by Porsche/Audi and was used in the fabled rally S1 Ur-Quattro as driven by Walter Rohrl during the world rally stages. The speed and smoothness offered by a double clutch gearbox are beyond question. It has been proven over years in motorsport and also in road cars. Cars with DSG/PDK/DCT do not allow buzzed engines. Wear is minimised - the traditional worn out clutch no longer needs replacing. Stability is maximised reducing instability and maintaining drive to the wheels at all time to provide control to the driver.

Its widespread adoption in motorbikes is only a matter of time, as motorbikes are inherently unstable machines. Anything to increase stability and safety is generally considered a good thing amongst the manufacturers (who don't want to be found being the reason for causing death on the roads). Arguably they have an interest in enhancing safety of their consumers, and DCT/DSG/PDK is a step in that direction.

[WaferThinHam]

Good point, well made.

Do this means that things like the 998R, GSXR1000 K5 will be revered in future years like the F40 or RX7 are in the car world?

[spareparts]

WaferThinHam said:

Good point, well made.

Do this means that things like the 998R, GSXR1000 K5 will be revered in future years like the F40 or RX7 are in the car world?

I think we are already seeing that happen between the desirability of the greatest of the 'analogue superbikes' vs the modern electronic-everything superbikes which are anodyne disposable commodities.

An fully auto/electronically controlled gearbox will be a defining moment. Its success depends on whether it really brings the advantages that we have seen in cars.

[y2blade]

legzr1 said:

Dog Star said:

There's a pic on the link in the OP; if it looks anything like that (ie. like the 09 onwards machine with that MASSIVE arse, bulbous middle and horrible lights (that look like they've been in an accident and lost the lens covers)) then I won't be opening my wallet for one.

This was deeply saddening for me - I'm an out and out R1 person (still have a 99) and have had at least one continually since 2000, but when my 08 was stolen and I was unable to find an unmullered replacement (see bar-end thread re. bolt on tat) I gave up and bought a new MV F4.

R1s up to the 08 model were beautiful bikes - the new one just looks st - bulbous and contrived. I couldn't care less how fast it goes (with any fast bike these days the ultimate performance is a total irrelevance, even on the track).

Of course I will be delighted to be proven wrong and the new one will look stunning.

MV owner in 'style over substance' non shocker

[moto_traxport]

Silver993tt said:

Always the same when new bike technology is made available. The old school always slates it. Remember the ABS debate? How many were claiming they could out brake it? Hilarious and all proved wrong.

I assume it will come with ABS to cope with forthcoming EU regs? Useful for the road in my opinion to a panic grab causing a locked front. Experienced riders can outperform it given a few attempts (i.e. circuit use) so hopefully it will come with an "off" facility.

[WaferThinHam]

spareparts said:

WaferThinHam said:

Good point, well made.

Do this means that things like the 998R, GSXR1000 K5 will be revered in future years like the F40 or RX7 are in the car world?

I think we are already seeing that happen between the desirability of the greatest of the 'analogue superbikes' vs the modern electronic-everything superbikes which are anodyne disposable commodities.

An fully auto/electronically controlled gearbox will be a defining moment. Its success depends on whether it really brings the advantages that we have seen in cars.

Better keep hold of my 954 then. :P

[spareparts]

WaferThinHam said:

spareparts said:

WaferThinHam said:

Good point, well made.

Do this means that things like the 998R, GSXR1000 K5 will be revered in future years like the F40 or RX7 are in the car world?

I think we are already seeing that happen between the desirability of the greatest of the 'analogue superbikes' vs the modern electronic-everything superbikes which are anodyne disposable commodities.

An fully auto/electronically controlled gearbox will be a defining moment. Its success depends on whether it really brings the advantages that we have seen in cars.

Better keep hold of my 954 then. :P

954 is a great road bike The last Baba-san Blade, and last FireBlade

[bass gt3]

My only thoughts are with regard to track usage how will it compare to a manual insofar-

Holding a gear.
Scenario.
Trackgearing is always acompromise. So there'll be corners where maybe you ride the revs above the optimal change point, or evento the limitier as it's easier than changing up to immediately change back down. It's nice to be able to hold it in a gear ifrequired, and the idea of fthe box continuously changing up doesn't sound too great.

Downshifts..

So you're coming from a Fast section into a slow,tight corner. With a manual box it's easy to downshift as you like,using the engine braking as required.Will the DCT override this and hold a higher gear to reduce rpm??

Or will this be a sequential box operated soley by the riders foot? No auto mode,just seamless up/down shifts ONLY on command?? If thats the case, i wouldn't mind,but the idea of being mid corner and the box decides to give me a higher gear without my instruction isn't something i'd want!!

[Silver993tt]

bass gt3 said:

My only thoughts are with regard to track usage how will it compare to a manual insofar-

Holding a gear.
Scenario.
Trackgearing is always acompromise. So there'll be corners where maybe you ride the revs above the optimal change point, or evento the limitier as it's easier than changing up to immediately change back down. It's nice to be able to hold it in a gear ifrequired, and the idea of fthe box continuously changing up doesn't sound too great.

Downshifts..

So you're coming from a Fast section into a slow,tight corner. With a manual box it's easy to downshift as you like,using the engine braking as required.Will the DCT override this and hold a higher gear to reduce rpm??

Or will this be a sequential box operated soley by the riders foot? No auto mode,just seamless up/down shifts ONLY on command?? If thats the case, i wouldn't mind,but the idea of being mid corner and the box decides to give me a higher gear without my instruction isn't something i'd want!!

DCT boxes come with a 'manual' mode, so it will hold a gear all day long as long as it doesn't enter the red zone. Much easier to downshift with the light touch of a finger and much quicker/smoother than a traditional manual box. Again, it will hold any gear on the way down as long as you don't enter the red zone.

[bass gt3]

Silver993tt said:

DCT boxes come with a 'manual' mode, so it will hold a gear all day long as long as it doesn't enter the red zone. Much easier to downshift with the light touch of a finger and much quicker/smoother than a traditional manual box. Again, it will hold any gear on the way down as long as you don't enter the red zone.

Thanks for that. Although i think i'dpreferto have th conventional although it'd beconnectedto the fangled box. pressingbuttons leantover etc, isn't somethingi thinki could get used to. Like swapping the pedals ina car. They're still inthe same place beit DCT or Auto.

[Silver993tt]

bass gt3 said:

Thanks for that. Although i think i'dpreferto have th conventional although it'd beconnectedto the fangled box. pressingbuttons leantover etc, isn't somethingi thinki could get used to. Like swapping the pedals ina car. They're still inthe same place beit DCT or Auto.

It's much easier and much quicker to change gear using your thumb/forefinger than your foot, even when cranked over and doesn't upset the bike at all unlike a traditional manual change in the same circumstance. I have a DCT box on my bike and now covered 12,000kms.